mloutfie Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 oh yeah the sub is there but it is Room corrected I use miniDSP and put room correction on all the speaker and Sub so the speaker and Sub are properly integrated. Sub and Speakers frequency response are also calibrated using UMIK-1. But off course as system wise a speaker upgrade is in order but the same time don't think my amp and speakers has been maxed out I can still definitely notice when a better cart is put in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I would like to correct some posts I have made in this thread. I mistakenly thought I had been making comparisons to an Ortofon 2M Black, but in fact the cartridge I was referencing was a 2M Silver, which is the model below the 2M Black and above the 2M Bronze. I don't think this mistake on my part changes my position on anything I posted in this thread, but I wanted to correct the record in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Below the Bronze, John....it has an Elliptical stylus. It is stated as suitable as a replacement for the Red or Blue "Recommended for following cartridges - 2M Silver, interchangeable with 2M Red and 2M Blue" It's in the lower end of the 2M family, between the Red and Blue, the only difference between it and the Red is the spools of the generator are silver plated wire like in the Bronze and Black bodies, but without the more advanced material that the body of the Bronze and Black use.. It was introduced as a special cartridge for certain Project tables. Have a look at the Ortofon site and reviews of the Silver and you will see this is correct. Edit: It's based on the Red. Edited March 26, 2016 by Muon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Below the Bronze, John....it has an Elliptical stylus. Thanks @@Muon, I stand corrected. This correction does not change the opinions I have posted previously. BTW I know the Bronze (and Red and Blue) better than I would wish. Edited March 26, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I have the Bronze, I love it I can't stand unbalanced cartridges with added bloom. Each to their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I can't stand unbalanced cartridges with added bloom. What is an 'unbalanced cartridge with added bloom'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 What is an 'unbalanced cartridge with added bloom'? What the Bronze is not I like the Bronze because it is an accurate cart as far as carts go, it's not thin and not overly warm. It tracks without fault, and is tonally very good but beaten out in tonality by the Black....but is less sensitive to surface noise than the Black and still extracts a good amount to information... again beaten out in this by the Black.. These things present what they do with the whole system as a base, so system dependent.... so if you personally prefer something else on a given system or systems that's fine and some of this is always a personal preference, so more power to you in whatever you prefer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I like the Bronze because it is an accurate cart as far as carts go, it's not thin and not overly warm. It tracks without fault, and is tonally very good but beaten out in tonality by the Black....but is less sensitive to surface noise than the Black and still extracts a good amount to information... again beaten out in this by the Black.. These things present what they do with the whole system as a base, so system dependent.... so if you personally prefer something else on a given system or systems that's fine and some of this is always a personal preference, so more power to you in whatever you prefer Maybe. I have fitted maybe a dozen or so Bronze on various turntables and have been underwhelmed personally. I recently replaced a Bronze with a Denon DL301Mk2 on an LP12 (the guy has a NAD M3 and Dynaudio C4s) and he figuratively somersaulted all the way back to me to tell me what a fantastic upgrade it was. I'd have to say he was the happiest person I have spoken to in quite a while. I also recently replaced a Bronze on a Clearaudio Concept with a Dynavector DV17D3 and that guy has since visited on three occasions to give me an expensive bottle of vintage wine, so I think he is happy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hensa Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 The 17D3 is 4 times the price of the 2M Bronze so not a huge surprise. Amongst others, I've had the 2M Blue, Bronze, Black, the DL110, DL301 II and Karat 17D2, 17D3 and 23RS in my system at one time or another and rate the Bronze only below the Karats and Black (almost a tie). The 301 II is an excellent MC for the price and a long way better than the 110 but also, IMHO, represented the point at which a good MM was better than budget MC. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebediah Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 @@johnmath ever had a situation where you've installed a 2M bronze for someone and they've been really satisfied with the improvement? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 @@johnmath ever had a situation where you've installed a 2M bronze for someone and they've been really satisfied with the improvement? Sure. I have replaced several Ortofon OM5e and Rega Carbon on Pro-Ject Debuts and Essentials, and Rega RP1s, respectively, with Bronze and of course the owner is happy. BTW it is beyond my understanding why any *reputable* turntable manufacturer would want to offer turntables with such poor sounding cartridges as standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) The 17D3 is 4 times the price of the 2M Bronze so not a huge surprise. Amongst others, I've had the 2M Blue, Bronze, Black, the DL110, DL301 II and Karat 17D2, 17D3 and 23RS in my system at one time or another and rate the Bronze only below the Karats and Black (almost a tie). The 301 II is an excellent MC for the price and a long way better than the 110 but also, IMHO, represented the point at which a good MM was better than budget MC. @@Hensa just curious, what do you have for an MC preamplifier? Edited March 27, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebediah Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Sure. I have replaced several Ortofon OM5e and Rega Carbon on Pro-Ject Debuts and Essentials, and Rega RP1s, respectively, with Bronze and of course the owner is happy. BTW it is beyond my understanding why any *reputable* turntable manufacturer would want to offer turntables with such poor sounding cartridges as standard. My guess is twofold, on one hand these are entry level turntables, hence bundled with entry level carts, which, for a certain selection of the turntable buying public would be sufficient for their needs. Two, to keep the initial cost of the turntable down for the punter, whom if they can only afford an entry level model, don't want to be put off by a higher price. It would be big business for say Ortofon to supply Project with entry level carts, one can only imagine the discount for bulk Project would receive lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hensa Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 @@Hensa just curious, what do you have for an MC preamplifier? Currently either a PS Audio GCPH or an Analogis Resume with Gieseler power supply. I previously used the Ray Samuels F117 Nighthawk. My current preferred MC's are the DV23RS and Benz Ace SL, though I've kept the 301 II as well as, to me, it represents the best starting point to experience good MC sound at less than $500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 My guess is twofold, on one hand these are entry level turntables, hence bundled with entry level carts, which, for a certain selection of the turntable buying public would be sufficient for their needs. Two, to keep the initial cost of the turntable down for the punter, whom if they can only afford an entry level model, don't want to be put off by a higher price. It would be big business for say Ortofon to supply Project with entry level carts, one can only imagine the discount for bulk Project would receive lol Sure Ortofon sell a lot of entry level carts. My wholesale price for a OM10 is just $4 more than an OM5e and I don't have the buying power of Rega or Pro-Ject. The OM10 is significantly better than the 2M Red IMHO and possibly better than a 2M Blue. (The 2M series is based on the design of the OM series internally.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Currently either a PS Audio GCPH or an Analogis Resume with Gieseler power supply. I previously used the Ray Samuels F117 Nighthawk. My current preferred MC's are the DV23RS and Benz Ace SL, though I've kept the 301 II as well as, to me, it represents the best starting point to experience good MC sound at less than $500. I am surprised you don't rate the DVs much higher than a Black. Certainly that is not my experience. A tip on the DL110 is not to use an MC preamp, it needs to connect to a MM input. I'm just mentioning this because it is a mistake I made once and was very disappointed until I realised I hadn't switched the preamp bay to MM (in that case a Vincent Pho 8 preamp). I have an iPhono preamp and DL301Mk2 on my table, not because I think it is the world's greatest cartridge, but because I haven't heard anything under double its price that is as good overall, and I have a other priorities in life than to spend all of my spare cash on hifi. As I rebuild a decent record collection I aspire to a DV XX-2, but one step at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 This is too surreal for me Anyway, time for me to leave the virtual world for some of today and see what's happening in the real one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hensa Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) I am surprised you don't rate the DVs much higher than a Black. Certainly that is not my experience. A tip on the DL110 is not to use an MC preamp, it needs to connect to a MM input. I'm just mentioning this because it is a mistake I made once and was very disappointed until I realised I hadn't switched the preamp bay to MM (in that case a Vincent Pho 8 preamp). I have an iPhono preamp and DL301Mk2 on my table, not because I think it is the world's greatest cartridge, but because I haven't heard anything under double its price that is as good overall, and I have a other priorities in life than to spend all of my spare cash on hifi. As I rebuild a decent record collection I aspire to a DV XX-2, but one step at a time. I think you misunderstood me, John. I found the Bronze very close to the Black, not the Dynavectors which were a clear step up. I've never used the MC settings for the HO Denon cartridges. Multiple testing of the 110 on various stages and turntables consistently resulted in disappointing results. I sold one 110 and eventually gave the other away for nix. Just not my cuppa tea in my system. EDIT: I can see the confusion was caused by my ambiguous posting - the "almost a tie" reference was to the Bronze and Black not the Black and Karats. Apologies for not being clearer. Edited March 27, 2016 by Hensa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 This is too surreal for me Anyway, time for me to leave the virtual world for some of today and see what's happening in the real one Hang on, ins't the real world just a virtual virtual world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amkr Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 The OM10 is significantly better than the 2M Red IMHO and possibly better than a 2M Blue. (The 2M series is based on the design of the OM series internally.) Not sure I agree with that one. I've got the OM10 and have recently had the opportunity to hear a 2M blue. The Blue was leaps and bounds better (as it should be at over 4x the price). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 So the Blue you listened to was on the same turntable and played through the same system as the '10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Overhang, offset angle, vertical tracking angle, tonearm effective moving mass, vertical tracking force and lateral anti-skating force ALL affect how a cartridge sounds. Making judgements about how different cartridges sound when auditioned without knowing all of the parameters is fraught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Overhang, offset angle, vertical tracking angle, tonearm effective moving mass, vertical tracking force and lateral anti-skating force ALL affect how a cartridge sounds. Making judgements about how different cartridges sound when auditioned without knowing all of the parameters is fraught. +1 !! Except I would say that tonearm effective moving mass is not, per se, important - what is important is the combination of this plus cart compliance/weight ... to get the arm/cart resonance in the right range. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdan Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 I had to use a shim on a Rega RP10 with an Audio Technica AT33EV to correct azimuth. The shim was 0.05mm on one side, and the difference it made was staggering. I can't say whether the tonearm was out, or the cartridge, or both, because the error wasn't visible to the naked eye. OMG! How did you even detect that the azimuth was out by that incredibly tiny amount? [emoji50] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 OMG! How did you even detect that the azimuth was out by that incredibly tiny amount? [emoji50] There were three indicators, all of which need a special test record such as the Hi Fi News Analogue Test LP to reveal. After azimuth correction, all three parameters were 'normal'. 1. The optimum anti-skating setting 'on land' and 'in groove' was quite different. 2. The crosstalk was noticeably worse L>R than R>L. 3. The cartridge outputs failed to null when added out of phase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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