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Guest Hensa

Innovative Headshell - The Nasotec Swing

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WRT the issue of wow on records having off-centre spindle holes, I would suspect that variation of tracking angle will do nothing to alleviate the problem.

 

Why on earth should it?

 

Andy

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Guest Hensa

Sorry if I offended you. I did not say you did not hear an improvement, I said that the Nasotec headshell does not correct tracking error. A turntable's job is very basic: rotate the record at a constant speed and hold the cartridge in the correct position relative to the groove. My facts are straight, both on confirmation bias and the inability of the Nasotec headshell to correct tracking error. You can shoot the messenger, but shooting the messenger does not counter the veracity of their message.

 

The message had no veracity as it incorrectly assumed I had already purchased the headshell and thus wanted to hear improvement - stating that what I heard was due to post-puchase confirmation bias or confirmation bias of any sort is downright arrogant and condescending.

 

In any event, telling the messenger that he can deliver his message without the arrogance or pomposity with which you did is still worthwhile, though your attitude suggests you're not up to learning anything new anyway.

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The message had no veracity as it incorrectly assumed I had already purchased the headshell and thus wanted to hear improvement - stating that what I heard was due to post-puchase confirmation bias or confirmation bias of any sort is downright arrogant and condescending.

 

In any event, telling the messenger that he can deliver his message without the arrogance or pomposity with which you did is still worthwhile, though your attitude suggests you're not up to learning anything new anyway.

 

I spend many hours every day comparing and measuring different turntable set-ups (it's what I do for a living). Some things are pretty obvious to those who do this. I am sorry if this comes across as arrogance or pomposity; I learn heaps every day yet I have never learned that some new wiz-bang thing defies the basic laws of physic, though.

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Guest Hensa

I spend many hours every day comparing and measuring different turntable set-ups (it's what I do for a living). Some things are pretty obvious to those who do this. I am sorry if this comes across as arrogance or pomposity; I learn heaps every day yet I have never learned that some new wiz-bang thing defies the basic laws of physic, though.

 

Unfortunately humility is learnt through human interaction not through setting up turntables so I can't help you with that but informing you that offense was, and is taken, is the least I can do.

 

I'm not disputing the science, I never have - I've simply asked questions and tried to keep an open mind. What the actual performance of the headshell suggests to me as a possibility, is that the isolation of the cartridge from the headshell is more consequential to the sound than the tracking error as despite not resolving tracking error, it improves clarity and groove tracking throughout the LP. When it eventually gets back to me, it will be getting the DL-301 II mounted on it and getting mainstay staus on the PS-8750. :thumb:

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Unfortunately humility is learnt through human interaction not through setting up turntables so I can't help you with that but informing you that offense was, and is taken, is the least I can do.

 

And I thank you for that  :)

Edited by johnmath

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OK, change the word 'purchase' for 'acquisition'; confirmation bias is agnostic about semantics.

 

? So if we borrow a component for home audition we are then positively biased in regards to it? I think not.

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? So if we borrow a component for home audition we are then positively biased in regards to it? I think not.

 

You are missing the point of my posts. No-one is exempt from being 'human' and being subconsciously influenced by what they expect or want to believe, good, bad or indifferent. That is why any serious scientific research requires a procedure called 'double blind' testing, whether it is medical drugs, fertiliser treatments for crops, a school curriculum, or high fidelity sound reproduction. But that is not the issue I have addressed.

 

In the case of the Nasotec headshell, my comments specifically relate to whether it corrects the tracking error introduced by a rigid, pivoting tonearm. This is not a matter for opinion - it either does, or does not. An analysis of the physics and geometry of the design confirms it cannot. And it can clearly be seen in their own promotional videos that it does not, if you know what to look for. Their own promotional videos also show that the Nasotec headshell not only fails to correct tracking error caused by a pivoting tonearm, but in-fact introduces another dynamic tracking error mechanism. I do not need to audition a Nasotec headshell to know that the flutter (speed variations and channel phase shifting) introduced by the pivot in the headshell if and when they occur (which they will on any eccentric or non-flat record, i.e. every record made) will detract from reproduced sound quality. I do not know if the Nasotec introduces some other esoteric sonic benefit; I am addressing the claims that the design corrects tracking error, claims which are demonstrably false.

Edited by johnmath

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Does the device have a spring in its joint? It looked that way in the video, and I'm trying to think what would be its purpose.

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I spend many hours every day comparing and measuring different turntable set-ups (it's what I do for a living). Some things are pretty obvious to those who do this. I am sorry if this comes across as arrogance or pomposity; I learn heaps every day yet I have never learned that some new wiz-bang thing defies the basic laws of physic, though.

I've been reading this thread with great interest and have a couple of points to add to this discussion.

Quite often new technologies or ideas that stray from conventional thinking struggle to get traction in the market and quite often get trashed without even getting a fair hearing. The Nakamichi tx1000 that got mentioned earlier in this thread is a good example of this, while I don't know whether that particular product got trashed necessarily but the idea has not been continued and expanded on despite it sounding like beneficial technology. It's also seems quite ironic to me that terms like "confirmation bias" get used in this manner as a form of inductive reasoning to put products down.

As for the Nasotec Swing it appears that the basic physics behind how it works is similar to a trailer being pulled behind a car or truck, this means it will track straight and correct itself if it's balance is upset. The precise physics most likely gets quite complex after this simple analogy and goes beyond my layman scientific understanding.

I actually appreciate @@Hensa's approach that he has taken. After some sceptical theorising at the start of the thread he went the further step of letting Nasotec send one out to actually try and judge the product on its own merit. I not actually sure anyone who put their hand up to try it wasn't at least a bit sceptical about it, and so far the consensus seems positive.

The next step thinking scientifically is after it has been established that those who have tried it have found the technology beneficial is to ask the question of why it has a positive effect to the sound and try to understand more extensively how it works.

I would also like to suggest @@johnmath that declaring your commercial interests here may be a good thing as I for one and I'm sure others do not know working for a living measuring turntable setups whether you work for a rival company or what your intersts are in this matter??

I would also like to add if the Nasotec Swing is still in Melbourne while I don't have a vinyl setup for it myself to test it, I would be interested to hear it if whoever has it setup is happy for me to come over. :)

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I wonder if the swing can correct an incorrect placed diamond on the end of a cantilever.

Some say that you should line up the diamond not the cantilever as it is possible in manufacturing that it was glued skewed,

The 17D3 is that tiny I can not make it out with my 2.5x glasses.

In theory would the swing arm move to square the tip or the whole cartridge?

Edited by rocky500

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In theory would the swing arm move to square the tip or the whole cartridge?

 

*In theory (and practice) the swing headshell will move the tip to as far away from the tonearm pivot as possible - this is exactly where it would be with a fixed headshell.

 

(*Excluding external influences from un-equal dressing of the headshell cables, off centre records or eccentric grooves all of which may cause additional dynamic mis-tracking unique to the swing headshell design.)

 

You seem to have two seperate problems. High inner groove distortion is an indicator that the cartridge overhang and offset angle are not optimal. I prefer to use the Walter E Schoen's alignment method as it is more tolerant of human error: http://www.weschoen.de

 

If you have difficulty getting the correct anti-skating force, it may be that the stylus tip azimuth is not correct. It is not possible to set the azimuth by eye. Using a mirror, for example, to make sure that the cantilever is inline with its reflection assumes that the diamond tip is mounted squarely and not worn. You need a x200 or more microscope to verify this is in-fact correct, and often it is not. In my experience Audio Technica and Linn cartridges are over represented in the mis-aligned group, but Dynavector and every other manufacturer will have examples of mis-mounted tips in Hi-Fi land.

Edited by johnmath

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@@johnmath Thanks, I will have a look.

My setup protractor makes it quite easy to get an exact alignment of the actual cartridge. Just had another real close look and it was slightly skewed in the headshell. We are talking less than a half a mm. Will test again.

Will check it all a bit better again. I know I must be close because it is sounding the best I have ever heard it. :)

I am used to a Denon DL103 and others were the diamond stylus profile seem a little less prone to getting a very very very exact alignment.

My Accutrak protractor seems a very precise way to get an alignment, where it has the arc and you just get the stylus to track it exactly over the whole arc. Then just make sure it is square to the 2 points on the arc.

 

It is like this

DSC00017_zps36d71f62.jpg

Edited by rocky500

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The DL103 is a spherical tip as the cartridge was originally designed to be fairly robust and tolerant of misalignment for its intended application which was broadcast use (i.e. radio stations with ham-fisted DJs).

 

From memory, Schoen says the cartridge offset angle error needs to be less than 0.1mm over the length of a typical cartridge (~20mm), which is quite difficult to achieve by eye. His method has a couple of tips and tricks to help achieve this and also his alignment takes into account that a small error in one direction is much worse than small error in the other direction. For this reason his alignment is calculated to be the centre point of the tracking distortion null, not the mechanical angle error null like everyone else's.

Edited by johnmath

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The Nakamichi tx1000 that got mentioned earlier in this thread is a good example of this, while I don't know whether that particular product got trashed necessarily but the idea has not been continued and expanded on despite it sounding like beneficial technology. 

 

The Nakamichi self entering turntables arrived too late - CDs had already pushed records down the slippery slope to near oblivion when the product was released.

 

As for the Nasotec Swing it appears that the basic physics behind how it works is similar to a trailer being pulled behind a car or truck, this means it will track straight and correct itself if it's balance is upset. The precise physics most likely gets quite complex after this simple analogy and goes beyond my layman scientific understanding.

 
 
This analogy is incorrect. In the towing example, both the towing vehicle and the towed vehicle have multiple wheels on fixed axles that constrain their sideways motion and thus dictate the position of the pivot point relative to the two vehicles - the pivot point is not free to move. The Nasotec headshell does not have that constraint and will always try to position the stylus tip as far away from the tonearm pivot as possible, which occurs when the headshell pivot is directly in line with a straight line from the tonearm pivot to the stylus tip, namely the same position as a fixed headshell. This is consistent with the movement demonstrated in their own marketing videos.
 
 

I would also like to suggest @@johnmath that declaring your commercial interests here may be a good thing as I for one and I'm sure others do not know working for a living measuring turntable setups whether you work for a rival company or what your intersts are in this matter??

 
I have no commercial interest to declare, I am retired. People bring turntables to me for service or repair, for which I charge a small recompense. I also set up turntables for a store, for which I am often paid in goods and services.
Edited by johnmath

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I always wonder why companies who make headshells don't allow longer cutout lengths in them or more toward the front.

Thinking of past turntables and pics online, the majority are mounted right towards the end or it does not quite fit as they run out of room. I don't think I have seen one right back in a headshell.

The one right now, just fits but might try another(Jelco one) to see if it makes any difference.

 

How is the Swing?

 

 

Mine

 

post-107190-0-26876400-1459133234_thumb.

Edited by rocky500

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The only time I have found that I couldn't get the cartridge positioned within the sets was when the tonearm pivot was incorrectly positioned for the length of the tonearm. I have a Clearaudio tool for precisely measuring the pivot to spindle distance and can then read off the correct cartridge overhang for the length of arm from a chart by Schoen. This is often the fastest way to get into the ballpark for the alignment.

clearaudio_alignment_tool_2.jpg

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The effective diameter of the pulley is its diameter plus ½ the thickness of the belt. So when the belt's thickness varies along its length, as they do, it causes speed variations called flutter.

It's a while since I studied kinematics, but IIRC the speed of the TT is determined by the TT drive pulley-subplatter gearing - ie. only the line of belt's inner circumf is of relevance.

Mechanics, a branch of Physics    ;)

 

Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

Cheers, Owen

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The only time I have found that I couldn't get the cartridge positioned within the sets was when the tonearm pivot was incorrectly positioned for the length of the tonearm. I have a Clearaudio tool for precisely measuring the pivot to spindle distance and can then read off the correct cartridge overhang for the length of arm from a chart by Schoen. This is often the fastest way to get into the ballpark for the alignment.

clearaudio_alignment_tool_2.jpg

 

I mounted the tonearm with one of those and then had it professionally checked and my alignment with a Denon. Actually adjusted the base to plinth to get there. It was spot on.

I find Ortofon headshells to have one of the shortest cutouts towards the front of any headshell. I take it, it is really made for ortofon tonearms.

It is just Cartridges from different manufacturers can have have quite a difference in their offsets.

Edited by rocky500

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clearaudio_alignment_tool_2.jpg

Ah yes...this was the 'Stylus Positioner' patented in 1981 (USA) by Frank Dennesen.

Now obviously out of patent & adopted by Feickert, Clearaudio....

post-131486-0-65893800-1459135893_thumb.

 

Cheers, Owen

Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

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It's a while since I studied kinematics, but IIRC the speed of the TT is determined by the TT drive pulley-subplatter gearing - ie. only the line of belt's inner circumf is of relevance.

Mechanics, a branch of Physics    ;)

 

Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

Cheers, Owen

 

In trying to find a good upgrade belt I've bought 20 'standard' and 'upgrade' belts from Rega, Isokentic, Audio Improvements, Edwards Audio, Tango Spinner, and few other suppliers. They all run at slightly different speeds depending on the belt diameter, which I can measure to a precision of about 0.01mm. The platter speed is absolutely affected by the belt thickness, with the thicker belts running faster. Some belts have thick and thin sections, so the speed warbles slightly slower than the speed of platter rotation. The selection of belts I have vary from about 1.84mm to 1.87mm which causes speed variations of more than 1%, enough to be annoying if you are a musician with pitch.

 

Another example of this is old 1970s Japanese turntables that run a flat section belt. I can only easily get 0.5 and 0.6 mm thick replacement belts, whereas the turntable were designed for 0.8 mm belts, so they all run slow.

Edited by johnmath

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I mounted the tonearm with one of those and then had it professionally checked and my alignment with a Denon. Actually adjusted the base to plinth to get there. It was spot on.

 

The important part to line up is not the headshell or the cartridge body, but the cantilever, assuming of course that the diamond tip is correctly positioned laterally and vertically. If it still doesn't sound right, I would suspect a misaligned diamond.

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I think I have it dialed in now pretty well spot on or as close as my eyes can get it.. Just over 2 to 2.5 on antiskate and it seems to be sounding very good. Lowered the tail slightly as it was a little high. Backed off the VTA from 2.0 grams to 1.90.

Still interested to see how a swing might sound. :)

Edited by rocky500

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I always wonder why companies who make headshells don't allow longer cutout lengths in them or more toward the front.

Thinking of past turntables and pics online, the majority are mounted right towards the end or it does not quite fit as they run out of room. I don't think I have seen one right back in a headshell.

The one right now, just fits but might try another(Jelco one) to see if it makes any difference.

 

How is the Swing?

 

 

Mine

 

attachicon.gifIMG_3582.jpg

 

the Ortofon headshells are good, but I agree they don't have much slide room, especially if you are using Stevenson.

 

the Jelco HS-25 has a lot more room for adjusting.

 

http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/jelco-hs-25-headshell/

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The effective diameter of the pulley is its diameter plus ½ the thickness of the belt. So when the belt's thickness varies along its length, as they do, it causes speed variations called flutter.

 

It's a while since I studied kinematics, but IIRC the speed of the TT is determined by the TT drive pulley-subplatter gearing - ie. only the line of belt's inner circumf is of relevance.

 

Correct.

 

The platter speed is absolutely affected by the belt thickness, with the thicker belts running faster. Some belts have thick and thin sections, so the speed warbles slightly slower than the speed of platter rotation. The selection of belts I have vary from about 1.84mm to 1.87mm which causes speed variations of more than 1%, enough to be annoying if you are a musician with pitch.

 

If your measurements are not faulty, then something else is causing it, not the variation in (pulley diameter plus half belt thickness), which has no effect, as Owen mentioned. Most likely cause of warbling is the fact that the belts are unreinforced and under tension, thus springy. So, the two 'hanging' sections of belt between the two pulleys will pull with different forces as the width or thickness of the belt varies due to manufacturing tolerances.

 

Stretched, springy rubber belts are an extremely stupid idea for a speed-sensitive drive. First line of defence would be a very heavy platter and very weak motor. Better would be an inflexible drive e.g. string, tape, kevlar, as long has it doesn't slip and the motor is low-vibration.

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One turntable I owned that had a very impressive stable speed, was a Well tempered which used something like fishing line as the belt. It even had a knot in it by design.

Edited by rocky500

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