Innovative Headshell - The Nasotec Swing

[Guest Hensa]

Regarding the Nasotec swing headshell, from the videos posted by the manufacturer and resellers, it is clear that the swing headshell does not eliminate or even necessarily improve cartridge tracking angle error performance, whilst it does introduce other non ideal dynamic tracking performance issues, which makes the fancy new headshell design all a bit pointless IMHO.

And yet it clearly tracked better, sounded better and exhibited no distortion effects in my set up, so go figure. I think the more important element is the isolation provided by the pivot joint which would be similar in effect to the cartridge isolator from The Cartridge Man. Edited March 26, 2016 by Hensa

[Guest]

Nobody who tried it had a problem with it in real life. Please elaborate on your hypothesis.

 

It is not a hypothesis, it's physics. Nasotec's own videos show that the tracking error problem of a pivoting tonearm is not solved, plus they show the headshell introduces a new tracking error mechanism that does not exist in a fixed headshell. Real records are not perfectly flat or perfectly centred and the Nasotec headshell will significantly increase the wow & flutter of a non perfect record, and introduce additional relative channel phase shifting. If you like that effect, then great. Personally I just want to listen to the recording unadulterated.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Yes, you do, however I disagree. I have a few (modern) pressings that are both visibly and audibly off-centre. I irks me, but I have the impression that I am more pitch sensitive than most. Having said that I played one with a friend recently and he said it sounded like the musician was tuning her guitar while playing!?!

 

Perhaps I should post a video somewhere or supply some sample vinyls [sic;)] to a member more credible than myself for testing purposes.

 

@ you make an interesting observation. Most turntable platters have eccentricity as well. This means when you place an eccentric record on the platter it may increase or decrease the total eccentricity depending on the relative positions of the record and the platter. In real life this is totally random; nobody I know lines their records up consistently with a mark on the platter, so every time the record is played it will potentially sound different! I have found this effect when measuring wow and flutter because my test record is not perfect either; I'll get a different measurement if I move the record relative to the platter.

 

Turntable drive belts also introduce a periodic pitch variation because inevitably they are not the same thickness all the way along the belt. The natural periodicity of the belt is longer than that of the sub-platter because the belt is a larger diameter than the sub-platter (it has to go around the pulley as well). The effect of mixing two periodic speed variations (the belt at, say ~32 revolutions per minute and the platter/record at 33â…“ revolutions per minute) is to introduce a 'beat' effect where the pitch variation wavers in magnitude with a periodicity of the difference frequency, namely 32 - 33.33 = ~ 1.3 cycles per minute (in this example).

 

I certainly find pitch variations detract from the musical performance quality of a record, and eliminating or at least minimising them causes a huge improvement in listening pleasure.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Guest

[eltech]

The Nakamichi computerised turntable self centered the record.

 

For the first time yesterday I played a hideously off centre LP and actually heard the pitch variation being discussed here. It was quite bad. That was a late 1950's pressing. But I also played some LPs with minor off centre pressings and didn't notice it at all. I suppose some people are more sensitive to this than others. I seriously considered filing out the hole like suggested earlier

Edited March 26, 2016 by eltech

[Guest]

The Nakamichi computerised turntable self centered the record.

 

@@eltech thanks for that info, I wasn't aware of the Nakamichi self entering turntable. There's a great article there: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue33/tx1000.htm

[andyr]

The Nakamichi computerised turntable self centered the record.

 

For the first time yesterday I played a hideously off centre LP and actually heard the pitch variation being discussed here. It was quite bad. That was a late 1950's pressing. But I also played some LPs with minor off centre pressings and didn't notice it at all. I suppose some people are more sensitive to this than others. I seriously considered filing out the hole like suggested earlier

 

 

@@eltech thanks for that info, I wasn't aware of the Nakamichi self entering turntable. There's a great article there: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue33/tx1000.htm

 

Wow!  Brilliant concept.  

 

Andy

[Owen Y]

Turntable drive belts also introduce a periodic pitch variation because inevitably they are not the same thickness all the way along the belt. 

Call me a simpleton, but I would have thought that the thickness of a belt has little relevance or effect on a BD TT.

Unless you are thinking about variations in elasticity.along the belt.

 

Anyway, from what I see, user reports of the Nasotec device, short term anyway, seem to be v positive.

Similarly the RS Labs RS-1... which, allthough similar in principle, differs significantly in it stylus-to-pivot geometry.

 

The orders of magnitude of tracking error (0.5 to >1%) are significant & v audible with conventional pivoted tonearms

 

I remain open-minded.

As always, I suggest we reserve judgment until we each have tried the device..

Often in audio, the ears tell you something different from the eyes  

 

Cheers, Owen

Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

[Guest]

 

Call me a simpleton, but I would have thought that the thickness of a belt has little relevance or effect on a BD TT.

Unless you are thinking about variations in elasticity.along the belt.

 

The effective diameter of the pulley is its diameter plus ½ the thickness of the belt. So when the belt's thickness varies along its length, as they do, it causes speed variations called flutter.

 

Anyway, from what I see, user reports of the Nasotec device, short term anyway, seem to be v positive.

 

That is consistent with a phenomena called confirmation bias, a well known post purchase effect.

 

The orders of magnitude of tracking error (0.5 to >1%) are significant & v audible with conventional pivoted tonearms

 

Correct, tracking errors cause audible issues. But the Nasotec pivoting headshell does not reduce tracking errors. The stylus tip is being pulled away from the tonearm pivot, which only has one degree of freedom. The result is that the tonearm and pivoting headshell will make the longest path possible between the stylus and tonearm pivot, but this is exactly the same length as a fixed tonearm. It's physics, doh!

 

 

Often in audio, the ears tell you something different from the eyes   

 

I absolutely agree. But sound quality is a result of the application of the laws of physics, not the application of some mysterious magic.

 

I remain open-minded.

  

Great. I'm glad you are not swayed by clever marketing.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Guest

[Hergest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is consistent with a phenomena called confirmation bias, a well known post purchase effect.

 

 

 

Only 1 person has bought it, the others have borrowed it and one of those who reported positive on the headshell has no intention of purchasing it as he has no use for it.

[metal beat]

Only 1 person has bought it, the others have borrowed it and one of those who reported positive on the headshell has no intention of purchasing it as he has no use for it.

 

Actually Nasotech shipped the headshell over for nothing for small groups of music lovers to listen to it and decide for themselves if they like it or not.   How many manufacturers do that?  

 

@@johnmath   so absolutely no post purchase confirmation bias effect from anyone.

Edited March 27, 2016 by metal beat

[andyr]

Actually Nasotech shipped the headshell over for nothing for small groups of music lovers to listen to it and decide for themselves if they like it or not.   How many manufacturers do that?  

 

@@johnmath   so absolutely no post purchase confirmation bias effect from anyone.

 

Aah, but, mate ... no double-blind tests were done ... so you haven't proved anything!  

 

Andy

[rocky500]

@@johnmath you do realise that there is no point in you trying it.

 

There this thing and I quote

"That is consistent with a phenomena called confirmation bias, a well known post purchase effect."

 

I sometimes wonder when someone is so certain of something not improving their system as the info and science they have read/learned points them towards this, that there is little chance of them hearing an improvement even if it is there.

Edited March 27, 2016 by rocky500

[metal beat]

Aah, but, mate ... no double-blind tests were done ... so you haven't proved anything!  

 

Andy

 

Andy, but I was blind a couple of times    

[andyr]

You hit the nail on the head, rocky.  

 

Andy

[Guest Hensa]

That is consistent with a phenomena called confirmation bias, a well known post purchase effect.

Possibly the most pompous and self-righteous statement I've read on here in a long time! Perhaps get your facts straight before making such an arrogant sweeping statement. I bought the headshell after listening to it and the improvement I heard in my system NOT before, so nothing to do with post-purchase confirmation bias. When it comes to my system and my enjoyment, I'll trust my ears rather than your lounge chair theorising thanks.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Hensa

[rocky500]

The distortion came back with a Rickie Lee Jones on the very end of the last track. The tracks are piled onto side 1.

Was able to fix it fully now by turning up my antiskate closer to 3 when the tracking force is close to 2.

Same happened when I ran a test record.

 

Could that mean my setting up of the cartridge is not quite spot on like I thought? It looks good. I have used the oil to damp my Jelco tonearm when I first got it.

Edited March 27, 2016 by rocky500

[Guest Hensa]

The distortion came back with a Ricky Lee on the very end of the last track. The tracks are piled onto side 1.

Was able to fix it fully now by turning up my antiskate closer to 3 when the tracking force is close to 2.

Same happened when I ran a test record.

Could that mean my setting up of the cartridge is not quite spot on like I thought? It looks good.

It wouldn't hurt to recheck the setup carefully with particular attention to your azimuth as this can definitely affect inner groove tracks. In my experience though, when final tracks run close to the centre and are (additionally) difficult to track, many cartridges are going to struggle without minor adjustment to VTF or anti-skate or sometimes both. I'd be interested to see how the Nasotec handles the same LP.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Hensa

[andyr]

The distortion came back with a Ricky Lee on the very end of the last track. The tracks are piled onto side 1.

Was able to fix it fully now by turning up my antiskate closer to 3 when the tracking force is close to 2.

Same happened when I ran a test record.

 

Could that mean my setting up of the cartridge is not quite spot on like I thought? It looks good. I have used the oil to damp my Jelco tonearm when I first got it.

 

Yes, maybe.  Forget about "tracking force close to 2" - get a digital guage and measure what it actually is!  Then read the manual for what anti-skate means and you will have a better idea of what you need to set it at, for that VTF (which I suggest should be in the middle of the cart mfr's recommended range).

 

Then read Allen Wright's cart setup white paper here:  http://www.vacuumstate.com/fileupload/GuruSetUp.pdf

 

... and get it purrfect! 

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

[Guest]

Possibly the most pompous and self-righteous statement I've read on here in a long time! Perhaps get your facts straight before making such an arrogant sweeping statement. I bought the headshell after listening to it and the improvement I heard in my system NOT before, so nothing to do with post-purchase confirmation bias. When it comes to my system and my enjoyment, I'll trust my ears rather than your lounge chair theorising thanks.

 

Sorry if I offended you. I did not say you did not hear an improvement, I said that the Nasotec headshell does not correct tracking error. A turntable's job is very basic: rotate the record at a constant speed and hold the cartridge in the correct position relative to the groove. My facts are straight, both on confirmation bias and the inability of the Nasotec headshell to correct tracking error. You can shoot the messenger, but shooting the messenger does not counter the veracity of their message.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Guest

[rocky500]

@@andyr thanks for that. I use a digital scale for tracking force. I think I follow how the antiskate works. The setup you mention looks interesting.

I put it to the max (just over 3) and it seems very happy there except for when I go to lower the tonearm on the first track. I have to lower the antiskate again as it wants to swing out and it may miss the record.

 

Sorry to sidetrack this thread but want to get it right before I try a swing.

Looking forward to more views as people try this.

Edited March 27, 2016 by rocky500

[Guest]

Only 1 person has bought it, the others have borrowed it and one of those who reported positive on the headshell has no intention of purchasing it as he has no use for it.

 

OK, change the word 'purchase' for 'acquisition'; confirmation bias is agnostic about semantics.

[Guest]

Actually Nasotech shipped the headshell over for nothing for small groups of music lovers to listen to it and decide for themselves if they like it or not.   How many manufacturers do that?  

 

@@johnmath   so absolutely no post purchase confirmation bias effect from anyone.

 

'Not enough' is the answer to your first proposition. I even thought of asking Nasotec for a headshell to evaluate, but in the same way that I don't need to evaluate a car with a broken gearbox to realise it isn't going to drive as well as one that doesn't have a broken gearbox, the idea of getting a Nasotec headshell to evaluate was pointless. As much as some people here might like to believe to the contrary, Nasotec do not get an exemption to the laws of physics that every turntable manufacturer has to work with.

[ophool]

WRT the issue of wow on records having off centre spindle holes I would suspect that variation of tracking angle will do nothing to alleviate the problem.

I would believe the problem to be one of varying linear velocity due to the varying radius, this problem will occur if the centre for playback does not match the centre for cutting of the master/stamper.

 

It will be interesting to see if any testing finds differently.

[andyr]

@@andyr thanks for that. I use a digital scale for tracking force. I think I follow how the antiskate works. The setup you mention looks interesting.

I put it to the max (just over 3) and it seems very happy there except for when I go to lower the tonearm on the first track. I have to lower the antiskate again as it wants to swing out and it may miss the record.

 

Mmmm, OK, if you have a digital scale then what VTF does it register?

 

And if this is, just as an example, 2gm ... then I presume the instructions for your arm say "set anti-skate at 2"?

 

Which, I am surmising, lowers the cart onto the LP OK?

 

But when you increase anti-skate to '3' - to stop inner groove distortion - the cart wants to go outwards during the initial "drop onto the record" stage - and may miss the edge of the LP?

 

This, IMO, is not necessarily the wrong anti-skate ... maybe your arm needs that much anti-skate to work properly?  So I would say,

1. Read Allen Wright's paper and follow his instructions.  (Listening is the ultimate test of correct anti-skate - although a test LP will help you get to a good starting place.)
2. If you get IGD then maybe your cart is not aligned properly?  I must say, I have never - as far as I can remember - experienced IGD.

 

Regards,

 

Andy

Edited March 27, 2016 by andyr

[Guest]

WRT the issue of wow on records having off centre spindle holes I would suspect that variation of tracking angle will do nothing to alleviate the problem.

I would believe the problem to be one of varying linear velocity due to the varying radius, this problem will occur if the centre for playback does not match the centre for cutting of the master/stamper.

 

It will be interesting to see if any testing finds differently.

 

You are correct and the testing I have done does not find differently.