Mobe1969 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 5 hours ago, Owen said: Can you define what you mean by "light bleed", I'm not clear on your interpretation. I'm not aware of any cinema camera that uses multiple exposes to create a true HDR images, moving images dont allow that technique for a start due to the blur that would result from combining images captured at different points in time. All we get is single shutter speed and single aperture setting per frame. The native dynamic range of the camera is what it is, its not like there is some "special" HDR camera. The exact same source video is used to create the SDR and HDR versions of a movie. HDR is an "effect" created by running the display very bright and mastering with a particular gamma to compliment the super bright display. As for 4K resolution, there is no such thing. 4K video is limited to about 3K luma resolution, and with 4K Bluray 1.5k chroma resolution due to colour sub sampling, and thats best case in a lab perfect capture environment with perfect focus, optimal lens aperture and absolutely ZERO motion. Real world capture, especially at 24fps, is FAR more challenging and VERY limited, any movement of camera or subject trashes resolution as does imperfect lens focus. 35mm cinema film has no usable amplitude response past 2K, we can scan film at 4K or 8K but that just reduces the digitisation losses, it doesnt get around the limitations of the source. I guess light bleed is more a thing for back or edge lighted LCD and I expect with LCD projectors (where light goes through matrix). I'm not sure if it can occur on DILA/DLP style projectors. It does also occur on OLED for some reason (I've seen test images on the new sonys).But basically it is when you have something bright on one region of the screen and it physically affects other parts of the picture. But say you have a dark static image, and are putting up subtitles on and off, cover the subtitles on the screen, and you can tell when the subtitles are showing or not as it affects the rest of the picture. OK regards 4K, maybe my terminology is wrong. I mean I want full 2160 lines by 3840 columns, no overscan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javs Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 I guess light bleed is more a thing for back or edge lighted LCD and I expect with LCD projectors (where light goes through matrix). I'm not sure if it can occur on DILA/DLP style projectors. It does also occur on OLED for some reason (I've seen test images on the new sonys).But basically it is when you have something bright on one region of the screen and it physically affects other parts of the picture. But say you have a dark static image, and are putting up subtitles on and off, cover the subtitles on the screen, and you can tell when the subtitles are showing or not as it affects the rest of the picture. OK regards 4K, maybe my terminology is wrong. I mean I want full 2160 lines by 3840 columns, no overscan. The JVC’s have pretty bad internal light scatter and lens reflections whereas the Sony does not. Thats a big pet hate I have with JVC right now. From what you are describing it would be unacceptable to you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted September 29, 2017 Author Share Posted September 29, 2017 3 hours ago, Mobe1969 said: I guess light bleed is more a thing for back or edge lighted LCD and I expect with LCD projectors (where light goes through matrix). I'm not sure if it can occur on DILA/DLP style projectors. It does also occur on OLED for some reason (I've seen test images on the new sonys).But basically it is when you have something bright on one region of the screen and it physically affects other parts of the picture. But say you have a dark static image, and are putting up subtitles on and off, cover the subtitles on the screen, and you can tell when the subtitles are showing or not as it affects the rest of the picture. I've got a feeling i know what talking about, I/we call it streaking. if do a search for streaking and something talked about from first deliveries of the current gen jvcs (i.e. new light engine Xxx00 series) pronounced i think due to effect in massive contrast difference i.e. bright light next to high contrast. one later poster calls it the JJ abrams effect i.e. flaring he uses in his movies, e.g. below from seanbrian Quote This is present on all JVCs. How easy it is to see can vary. It can be subtle enough that some owners don't even realize it is there. Even when it is more visible, it is generally only seen on images with bright white on a black background (like in the credits). It was present on my RS4810 and my RS57. It was subtle on the 4810, but on the RS57 it was actually unusually obvious and bothersome (easily seen from normal seating distance and even within actual images and not just credits). It was bothersome enough that I sent pictures to Mike and he was able to arrange an exchange because the degree to which it was showing in mine was atypical and warranted an exchange. The new RS57 replacement was much better. The streaking is subtle like it was on my 4810, and a non-issue. FYI, this "light streaking" is seen on the Sonys and Epsons as well. not something I've noticed for a long time, 3 hours ago, Mobe1969 said: OK regards 4K, maybe my terminology is wrong. I mean I want full 2160 lines by 3840 columns, no overscan this isn't still your native 4k obsession is it ? and just trying to put in another cloak I thought we already mentioned you can have it. its just going to cost you $40k for jvc or $90k for sony. lesser sony use inadequate plastic optics, have you checked out anything in person as yet. found one well setup for UHD as yet ? seen across a bit of different material. a lot of your questions i suspect would be answered if you have 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javs Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 1 minute ago, al said: I've got a feeling i know what talking about, I/we call it streaking. if do a search for streaking and something talked about from first deliveries of the current gen jvcs (i.e. new light engine Xxx00 series) pronounced i think due to effect in massive contrast difference i.e. bright light next to high contrast. one later poster calls it the JJ abrams effect i.e. flaring he uses in his movies, It is also actually fromt he e-shift glass element inside, produces light scatter on opposite sides of bright objects on the screen, it can show up as orbs etc, particularly visible in the black bar areas in 2.35 films. Its also why the JVC dont reach past 300:1 ANSI contrast. Streaking I think is caused by the same thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 5 hours ago, Javs said: The JVC’s have pretty bad internal light scatter and lens reflections whereas the Sony does not. Thats a big pet hate I have with JVC right now. From what you are describing it would be unacceptable to you. Ok I couldn't take that. Ugh. That makes the options more difficult. 3 hours ago, al said: I've got a feeling i know what talking about, I/we call it streaking. if do a search for streaking and something talked about from first deliveries of the current gen jvcs (i.e. new light engine Xxx00 series) pronounced i think due to effect in massive contrast difference i.e. bright light next to high contrast. one later poster calls it the JJ abrams effect i.e. flaring he uses in his movies, e.g. below from seanbrian not something I've noticed for a long time, this isn't still your native 4k obsession is it ? and just trying to put in another cloak I thought we already mentioned you can have it. its just going to cost you $40k for jvc or $90k for sony. lesser sony use inadequate plastic optics, have you checked out anything in person as yet. found one well setup for UHD as yet ? seen across a bit of different material. a lot of your questions i suspect would be answered if you have No I haven't checked any out yet in decent setups. And on full resolution, yes I am interested. It was like people telling me 720p sets were adequate for so and so a size TV at such and such a distance, but no, they weren't. If a full resolution test pattern looks like junk it has to affect what they can do with images. 40k. Geez. Maybe I should just put up with direct view sets until technology gets a bit further along. Or just pick a Sony or JVC depending on which one has the least light bleed/scatter/streaking until something better comes along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Mobe1969 said: guess light bleed is more a thing for back or edge lighted LCD and I expect with LCD projectors (where light goes through matrix). I'm not sure if it can occur on DILA/DLP style projectors. It does also occur on OLED for some reason Ok, I think I know what you are getting at and its not what others here have mentioned, especially sense you have seen it on OLED. TV's have a relatively thick glass or acrylic screen that protects the underlying thin and fragile surface of the panel. Light is refracted as it passes through this screen to screen interface resulting in a glow around bright objects such as white text on a black background. Early Plasma TV's had significant issues because they used two sheets of relatively thick glass, one as part of panel and the other as a screen protector. Late model Panasonic Plasmas address this by used one sheet of glass, the panel surface was also the screen surface, no screen protector. This was an improvement but there was still refraction in the single sheet of glass. Since projection screens are not covered in glass - acrylic they dont suffer this problem and therefore perform much better in this regard, however there is light scatter in the optical path of the projector. This manifests its self as an overall increase in black level when bright content is on screen, (poor ANSI contrast). I find this much more natural and less distracting then what happens on TV's with MUCH better ANSI contrast. Its one of the reasons I much prefer viewing my projector then any TV. As an example my VT60 Plasma TV has over 30,000:1 ANSI contrast which is crazy high, yet in dark scenes the JVC projector with its poor ANSI contrast but much higher native contrast totally destroys the Plasma, no contest. I cant remember seeing the other light scatter issues mentioned here while viewing real content so they have never bugged me. Edited September 30, 2017 by Owen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 9 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said: If a full resolution test pattern looks like junk it has to affect what they can do with images. A resolution test pattern has no relevance to video shot with a camera, any camera. This is because ALL video is low pass filtered and has effectively no amplitude resonance at the single pixel level. Everything at the pixel level is a total blur so there is no need for the display to reproduce sharp clear lines on a test pattern. In fact sharply defined square edges pixels are an impediment to image quality because they represent spatial frequencies FAR, FAR above anything in the video and are nothing but distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobe1969 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Owen said: A resolution test pattern has no relevance to video shot with a camera, any camera. This is because ALL video is low pass filtered and has effectively no amplitude resonance at the single pixel level. Everything at the pixel level is a total blur so there is no need for the display to reproduce sharp clear lines on a test pattern. In fact sharply defined square edges pixels are an impediment to image quality because they represent spatial frequencies FAR, FAR above anything in the video and are nothing but distortion. I understand the argument, And I guess so long as I'm not seeing any fine diagonal lines or edges (which are all over the place in the and movies) looking ragged (which is something I notice on 720p vs 1080p at 55") I'm ok. But extrapolating from 720 v 1080 at 55" to 2160 at 100". That's interesting what you said on the ANSI contrast above. Something for me to ponder more. Kind of knackered now working on my room all day... Fixing braces between joists so I can easily mount ceiling brackets for speakers once plastered, and boxing around a beam. Edited September 30, 2017 by Mobe1969 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javs Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 On 30/09/2017 at 12:42 PM, Owen said: Ok, I think I know what you are getting at and its not what others here have mentioned, especially sense you have seen it on OLED. TV's have a relatively thick glass or acrylic screen that protects the underlying thin and fragile surface of the panel. Light is refracted as it passes through this screen to screen interface resulting in a glow around bright objects such as white text on a black background. Early Plasma TV's had significant issues because they used two sheets of relatively thick glass, one as part of panel and the other as a screen protector. Late model Panasonic Plasmas address this by used one sheet of glass, the panel surface was also the screen surface, no screen protector. This was an improvement but there was still refraction in the single sheet of glass. Since projection screens are not covered in glass - acrylic they dont suffer this problem and therefore perform much better in this regard, however there is light scatter in the optical path of the projector. This manifests its self as an overall increase in black level when bright content is on screen, (poor ANSI contrast). I find this much more natural and less distracting then what happens on TV's with MUCH better ANSI contrast. Its one of the reasons I much prefer viewing my projector then any TV. As an example my VT60 Plasma TV has over 30,000:1 ANSI contrast which is crazy high, yet in dark scenes the JVC projector with its poor ANSI contrast but much higher native contrast totally destroys the Plasma, no contest. I cant remember seeing the other light scatter issues mentioned here while viewing real content so they have never bugged me. The last coupe of generations of JVC's have pretty significant light scatter artefacts and streaking on screen. I could take a photo of it if you dont believe me. I see it literally every day, surprised you say you have not, since you have an e-shift machine too. Its not just my specific projector either, I have owened a couple generations of JVC now and this has been discussed at length over on AVS. Its not an overall increase in black level its a very distinct almost lens flare like reflection on the oppisite side of whatever is on the screen. Say, a character in a movie is holding a flashlight, you will see an artefact of that flashlight on the opposite symmetrical side. You also see this a LOT in the black bar area in 2.35:1 films. Its caused by the e-shift element inside the projector much how you describe the plasma TV issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 1, 2017 Author Share Posted October 1, 2017 the studios have been doing a magnificent job on back releases of movies on uhd e.g. blade runner, ET, Leon the professional and fifth element have recently enjoyed on UHD. Sony particularly has been very busy with restoring some of the grand old masters wiht 4K masters, and am absolutely rapped to read on digital bits that they have done the bridge on the river kwai real justice to bring on UHD. http://thedigitalbits.com/item/bridge-on-the-river-kwai-60th-uhd-bd put my order in, released tomorrow, and very much look forward to viewing on the JVC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) On 10/1/2017 at 3:19 PM, Javs said: I could take a photo of it if you dont believe me. I see it literally every day, surprised you say you have not, since you have an e-shift machine too. I didn't say I haven't seen what you are talking about mate, I have, what I said was I cant remember seeing any issues when actually viewing a movie and I cant. It has been a non issue for me. The increase in black level when bright content is on screen is far more noticeable to me and I see it with all projectors, however I only see it on the JVC if I am looking for it so its not a problem. Individual perceptions are obviously very different. The light scatter-streaking is likely to be irrelevant to Mobe1969 as its VERY different to what he/she has observed on flat panel TV's, and found wanting. The TV issues dont apply to quality projectors If I had the ear of JVC engineers I would ask for much better native contrast first, even though a high end JVC is WAY ahead of the competition, followed by better ANSI contrast. The light scatter issues that seems to bug you so much wouldn't even rate a mention, what I see on TV's is more objectionable. Before replacing my old non E-Shift JVC I actually considered opening the new projector up and removing the E-Shift element from the light path as I thought it would do more harm then good. However that turned out not to be the case and I would not go without E-Shift now. Had I used the JVC's internal up scaling and sharpening I would not have bothered with E-Shift as the results where less then best IMHO, but with external processing via a PC the improvement in clarity and sharpness possible with feeding the projector an up scaled 4K signal, which requires E-Shift, is very significant compared to no up scaling and displaying 1080 Bluray natively. Edited October 2, 2017 by Owen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 been very much enjoying the jvc x7000 for gaming of all things since we got an xbox one x a little while back. the one X comes with 4k UHD HDR games which was interested also to check out. my gaming interest itself has wained a tad as have found with few gaming systems have bought and sold over the years in the xbox 360/ all the ps3 variants and ps4 as well. So picked some games more for the daughter. in Forza... its G rated and she likes racing games, and zoo tycoon as looks like an interesting thing for kids. and in hooking up the xbox one gave the projector all ticks for support and projector acknowledged 4k 60 10bit coming through as well no probs which was good to see, in getting things going gaming wise, firstly i have to say forza comes up an absolute treat in 4K UHD and in all its high dynamic range and wider colour gamut glory ! and right from get go ! the detail and sheen and colours etc all look absolutely magnificent ! certainly a lot of fun on the big screen which adds to engagement, and great fun tootling around in all sorts of cars old and new over all sorts of race tracks and conditions ! similarly zoo tycoon, is a fantastic experience, this is more first person like putting you right in the zoo atmosphere, interacting with the animals and environment. with the projector screen puts you right there At no stage have i seen any issues with lag etc but then again with previous jvc i had in the older x35 i didnt have any bothers with games either even first person shooter types. but then i guess we are no hard core gamers, and with my daughter we might only run it for an hour or so and these games are not kind requiring razor sharp responses or life death depending on it. hence why all seems quite useable. more hardcore gamers might feel otherwise @blybo i think you are using your x7000 for something gaming / simulation related bikes or something ? how has your experience been so far. from me so far its a big thumbs up !! ps am tempted to grab need for speed or wolfenstein next 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blybo Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 @:) al I’ve set up a steering wheel for the 7000 specifically for Gran Tourismo and yes even though my ps4 is not 4K HDR compliant the visually are amazing. Wife bought me Star Wars Battlefront 2 for Xmas but haven’t fired it up yet. I was was using it for my bike indoor smart trainer which turns training into a virtual online game where can ride with mates anywhere in the world, join group rides, draft etc. but due to wife wanting to watch foxtel or Netflix while riding her spin bike, I’ve now set up my trainer in the study with a 32” TV only 1 meter away 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 35 minutes ago, blybo said: @:) al I’ve set up a steering wheel for the 7000 specifically for Gran Tourismo and yes even though my ps4 is not 4K HDR compliant the visually are amazing. Wife bought me Star Wars Battlefront 2 for Xmas but haven’t fired it up yet. ~ ah good stuff, glad enjoying gaming too on the x7000 with your ps4, gran turismo would be excellent ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven_James89 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 On 31/12/2017 at 12:39 PM, al said: been very much enjoying the jvc x7000 for gaming of all things since we got an xbox one x a little while back. the one X comes with 4k UHD HDR games which was interested also to check out. my gaming interest itself has wained a tad as have found with few gaming systems have bought and sold over the years in the xbox 360/ all the ps3 variants and ps4 as well. So picked some games more for the daughter. in Forza... its G rated and she likes racing games, and zoo tycoon as looks like an interesting thing for kids. and in hooking up the xbox one gave the projector all ticks for support and projector acknowledged 4k 60 10bit coming through as well no probs which was good to see, in getting things going gaming wise, firstly i have to say forza comes up an absolute treat in 4K UHD and in all its high dynamic range and wider colour gamut glory ! and right from get go ! the detail and sheen and colours etc all look absolutely magnificent ! certainly a lot of fun on the big screen which adds to engagement, and great fun tootling around in all sorts of cars old and new over all sorts of race tracks and conditions ! similarly zoo tycoon, is a fantastic experience, this is more first person like putting you right in the zoo atmosphere, interacting with the animals and environment. with the projector screen puts you right there At no stage have i seen any issues with lag etc but then again with previous jvc i had in the older x35 i didnt have any bothers with games either even first person shooter types. but then i guess we are no hard core gamers, and with my daughter we might only run it for an hour or so and these games are not kind requiring razor sharp responses or life death depending on it. hence why all seems quite useable. more hardcore gamers might feel otherwise @blybo i think you are using your x7000 for something gaming / simulation related bikes or something ? how has your experience been so far. from me so far its a big thumbs up !! ps am tempted to grab need for speed or wolfenstein next Great to see that you got the 4k side of thing working on the X7000. Im having difficulty playing 4k games off the PS4 Pro. In the playstation settings when I go to activate HDR mode it says "HDR not supported" I tried switching to HDR mode but even in that mode it still wont allow me to activate the HRD setting. not sure why this is happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Steven_James89 said: Great to see that you got the 4k side of thing working on the X7000. Im having difficulty playing 4k games off the PS4 Pro. In the playstation settings when I go to activate HDR mode it says "HDR not supported" I tried switching to HDR mode but even in that mode it still wont allow me to activate the HRD setting. not sure why this is happening? hi steven sorry i dont know the sony ps4pro to comment. have you had HDR working with anything else ? what hdmi cable are you using. as that can often be a first hurdle particularly if getting upto 10m 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven_James89 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Thanks Al, the cable is all good to go as I can get my 4k bluray player to work with no issues. It's just this PS4 Pro.. keep in mind it's not a 4k reader unlike the Xbox. maybe I need to turn 4k Shift off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Steven_James89 said: Thanks Al, the cable is all good to go as I can get my 4k bluray player to work with no issues. It's just this PS4 Pro.. keep in mind it's not a 4k reader unlike the Xbox. maybe I need to turn 4k Shift off? hi steven, thats good to hear all working well with the 4k blu-ray player. that narrows down to the ps4pro. no i wouldnt drop back with e-shift off. the jvc looks after it self pretty well in this regard. id be looking at ps4 pro settings maybe something for a ps4 thread 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Some have asked what light meter am using. ie just to measure & set output by closing down the iris. which is an important step I think in the very basics of setup. i just use an older non RS branded slightly more expensive model of below, https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/light-meters/1232223/ a small price to get the basics right especially given the kind of money invested in projectors like this 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wooferocau Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 :) al How many hours on your X7000 now ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 15 minutes ago, wooferocau said: :) al How many hours on your X7000 now ? oh gee woofer, id have to check to be exact but i think its 710 hours or something like that ? its my 2nd display, only gets use for movies, sport and large screen events so only doing about 250 hours a year or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wooferocau Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 1 minute ago, al said: oh gee woofer, id have to check to be exact but i think its 710 hours or something like that ? its my 2nd display, only gets use for movies, sport and large screen events so only doing about 250 hours a year or something like that. Ahh... At that rate you have A LOT of years left on that bulb.. I have already clocked 650hrs on my Z1 and its only a "youngster" 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 12 minutes ago, wooferocau said: Ahh... At that rate you have A LOT of years left on that bulb.. I have already clocked 650hrs on my Z1 and its only a "youngster" good to hear enjoying the Z1 woofer this is my 4th projector over the years .... never had to change bulbs on any of them... generally tended to change projectors before needing a new bulb but yeah the x7000 is a relative youngn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMDave Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 33 minutes ago, al said: oh gee woofer, id have to check to be exact but i think its 710 hours or something like that ? its my 2nd display, only gets use for movies, sport and large screen events so only doing about 250 hours a year or something like that. I'm about the same :)al Only use mine for movies, and WAF means I'm lucky if that's once a week. Guess I won't need a new lamp for about another 10 years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, IMDave said: I'm about the same :)al Only use mine for movies, and WAF means I'm lucky if that's once a week. Guess I won't need a new lamp for about another 10 years. hehe yep thats about me weeks can go by and then it can be back to back... watched only the brave, 3 bill boards and hell and high water week before last... last week and this one hasnt been turned on ! but yeah will get back to it some stage.... got a few movies in pipeline to watch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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