Antipodes Owners & Discussion Thread

[notchasingrainbows]

I would like to add an Antipodes as a music server in front of my renderer which is the Empirical Audio Interchange  Network Renderer.

 

Question is, will the EX be sufficient? Or would the S30 better the EX? Anyone had any experience with the two? Thank you.

Edited April 25, 2021 by notchasingrainbow

[Stereophilus]

4 hours ago, notchasingrainbow said:

I would like to add an Antipodes as a music server in front of my renderer which is the Empirical Audio Interchange  Network Renderer.

 

Question is, will the EX be sufficient? Or would the S30 better the EX? Anyone had any experience with the two? Thank you.

What software do you want to use? Will you be doing any software upsampling?

[notchasingrainbows]

2 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

What software do you want to use? Will you be doing any software upsampling?

any software that is capable to stream using UPNP.  And no software upsampling. Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio told me the music server’s hardware doesnt matter if I stream through his network renderer, but the changes I did to the hardware, from electricity, physical isolation and os optimization really makes a big sonical difference. 

[Stereophilus]

1 hour ago, notchasingrainbow said:

any software that is capable to stream using UPNP.  And no software upsampling. Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio told me the music server’s hardware doesnt matter if I stream through his network renderer, but the changes I did to the hardware, from electricity, physical isolation and os optimization really makes a big sonical difference. 

Quite a few people on this forum, including me, also think server hardware (and software) will affect sound quality.  Not everyone agrees though.

 

In my experience, the EX is excellent if you don’t need any significant processing power (eg Roon or HQplayer).  It has a nice built-in network switch so you can connect the server directly to the renderer with Ethernet and get really good sound quality.

 

The S30 doesn’t have the option of a network switch built in.  To match the EX in this regard, you would need to look at the S40.  Also, the EX has a built in LPS, whereas the S30 and S40 come with upgradable outboard SMPS.  So, to rival the EX, I think you would need to look at a S40 + S60 combo.

 

Alternatively, if you already have a nice audio switch, you can use an EX or a S30 separately on your network and not spend as much on the server.  Having said that, the real benefit of the Antipodes gear is realised the closer it is to your renderer IMO.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Stereophilus
Spelling

[notchasingrainbows]

11 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

Quite a few people on this forum, including me, also think server hardware (and software) will affect sound quality.  Not everyone agrees though.

 

In my experience, the EX is excellent if you don’t need any significant processing power (eg Roon or HQplayer).  It has a nice built-in network switch so you can connect the server directly to the renderer with Ethernet and get really good sound quality.

 

The S30 doesn’t have the option of a network switch built in.  To match the EX in this regard, you would need to look at the S40.  Also, the EX has a built in LPS, whereas the S30 and S40 come with upgradable outboard SMPS.  So, to rival the EX, I think you would need to look at a S40 + S60 combo.

 

Alternatively, if you already have a nice audio switch, you can use an EX or a S30 separately on your network and not spend as much on the server.  Having said that, the real benefit of the Antipodes gear is realised the closer it is to your renderer IMO.

 

Well noted and thank you for the detailed explanation @Stereophilusreally appreciate your time. Yes I do have a dual audio switch config in my setup, the NuPrime Omnia SW8 and the JS PC Audio HFS1155 Switch from Japan. 

 

Have you had any experience comparing the Antipodes with the 432EVO which are getting a lot of raves? I know they are quite new compared to Antipodes, hence the interest towards the Antipodes. But digital server technology has been growing too fast, I am looking for the most musical not latest though. 

[Stereophilus]

8 hours ago, notchasingrainbow said:

 

Well noted and thank you for the detailed explanation @Stereophilusreally appreciate your time. Yes I do have a dual audio switch config in my setup, the NuPrime Omnia SW8 and the JS PC Audio HFS1155 Switch from Japan. 

 

Have you had any experience comparing the Antipodes with the 432EVO which are getting a lot of raves? I know they are quite new compared to Antipodes, hence the interest towards the Antipodes. But digital server technology has been growing too fast, I am looking for the most musical not latest though. 

I have no experience with the 432EVO.  I won't comment too much except to say it sounds a bit gimmicky in some regards.  I don't even know if they have local support/distribution.

[TerryO]

I have been recently using the S40 / S60 combo in the back listening room and that combo is extremely good sq wise.
Like all things HiFi it comes down to synergy and each streamer model and brand I have tried in the various systems, being Innuos, Auralic and Antipodes delivers a different sound signature and suits different systems and listening preferences.

 

Nothing in this hobby is straight forward and choosing streamers is right up there in the importance stakes I reckon, lots of research is very important before choosing, after all for many now a streamer is the main gate way to their sound system so in many ways it is a more important component that just about anything else.

 

cheers,

Terry

Edited May 3, 2021 by TerryO

[delphi17]

Had a chat with TerryO regarding the S40/S60 Combo and also Antipodes in general.

Terry is such a great guy and went into details on how it would work.

Just a wealth of information and trying synergies with different systems.

 

I am waiting for funds to go ahead with the purchase.

Also for results from TerryO testing the S40/S60 combo with the USB Clocker.

 

We are very lucky to have someone like Terry to carry the Antipodes product line.

 

[TerryO]

I had read that the K series Antipodes sounded best when using a AES/EBU cable to the Dac, so I decided to give it a try and ordered a couple of the Atlas Mavros AES cables to try out, the real shame is they took a few weeks to arrive and they missed our launch because the difference in sq over a very good aftermarket Ethernet cable has to be heard to be really appreciated.

 

Who would have thought an, often thought, obsolete cable would make such a difference, I guess the thing is Antipodes have said the AES cable is the go and from what I have experienced so far they are so right.
 

I’ll try a different Mola Mola Dac in the next few days and compare the I2s connection to AES on the K50.
 

cheers,

Terry

 

*Sorry for the crappy picture.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by TerryO

[dbastin]

2 hours ago, TerryO said:

Who would have thought an, often thought, obsolete cable would make such a difference, I guess the thing is Antipodes have said the AES cable is the go and from what I have experienced so far they are so right.

 

Let's see, the K50 is the only one with AES, and it includes the reclocker.  It's "An all-new fully-isolated reclocking engine to provide exceptional S/PDIF, AES3 and I2S digital outputs"  I'd guess that is the main reason why that output is better.

 

Furthermore, the reclocker is presumably isolated from the player engine, its noise, and the noise it transmits over ethernet (yes, I'd guess here is still some noise transmitted via K50 ethernet).

 

Finally, I gather from my previous searching, ethernet in pro audio is pretty well limited to unique AoIP protocols, such as Dante, Livewire, Qsys and RAVENNA.  So AES is probably still most widely used in pro audio, where they also prefer balanced analog connections to connect to self power speakers rather than ethernet to speakers with integrated streamer and DACs.

 

PS.

 

The clock governing K50 AES output 'pushing' data may be superior to the endpoint clock and ethernet interface which in effectively governs 'pulling' data from the player.

 

Ethernet for audio is still quite new, really.  In Pro audio, Dante seems to be the market leader and only 5 years ago there were only about 250 Dante products, and now its more like 2000 products.

 

Ethernet has its place and is not best for all applications.  For example, for streamed data, USB and I2S are contenders for over 192kHz, but under that AES, Coax and toslink are also contenders.

 

AES3 was designed to allow use of existing balanced analog cables to avoid the significant expense of new cabling in existing installations.

Edited May 20, 2021 by dbastin
Added PS

[delphi17]

AES is definitely a great interface.

Unless you want to play Dsd , then you are out of luck with AES.

 

Looking forward to Terry’s test with I2s.

And of course the s40+s60 with the Phoenix USB / Net.

 

Thank you Terry

[ikhuong]

Received my Antipodes S60/S40 combo two days ago from Rom to replace my custom built Linux PC. I have been skeptical about possibility of music server to further improve streaming sound quality , I did try to stop myself to further tweak upstream and have an EtherRegen switch with fiber isolation in place but  many pioneer folks here are right, just an audiophile switch is not enough, it can solve some problems but cannot solve a lot of problems in digital audio.

 

Unmistakably, music server is a real deal in digital audio. So just run and buy them, guys. If you really want to ditch CD players, a complete streaming investment is required with a highend music server in place. 
 

Many highend music server makers  explain switches/ filter devices can effectively remove  noise/leakage current which are not within audio spectrum but noise inside the audio spectrum is challenging to get rid off, so why don’t create a server which generates less noise inside audio spectrum, this now totally makes sense to me with real experimenting in my setup

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by ikhuong

[dbastin]

45 minutes ago, ikhuong said:

Antipodes S60/S40

What are you using as an endpoint render (or 'player' in Antipodes language)?

[ikhuong]

4 minutes ago, dbastin said:

What are you using as an endpoint render (or 'player' in Antipodes language)?

MSB Premier DAC With Network Renderer 

[greggy]

I agree  with ikhuong recently upgraded from a roon nucleus to antipodes server\ renderer and made a huge difference to all the roon endpoints with much greater clarity and depth. I didn't expect this as I really bought it to improve the rendering capacity of my main system .

 

[dbastin]

23 minutes ago, ikhuong said:

MSB Premier DAC With Network Renderer

Here's some food for thought ...

 

I have suggested previously, try putting ER  between server and renderer ...

 

 ...> S40 > ER > MSB DAC ...

 

You might want to put your pc back in as server and try S40 as render instead of the MSB renderer.  It is possible the MSB renderer is a weaker link at that point in the chain.  If the PC is far enough upstream it may be less impact.

 

And if MSB has wifi, you could try ...

 

S40 > ER > wifi access point > --- > MSB

 

It is possible MSB eliminates more wifi noise than wired ethernet noise.

 

I am curious about S60.  I gather it has 2 outputs, one could be used to power ER and it may be better than whatever it replaced ... the question is how much better?

[dbastin]

24 minutes ago, greggy said:

upgraded from a roon nucleus to antipodes server\ renderer and made a huge difference

Very interesting given Stereophile rates the Nucleus very highly.  They might need to create a rating better than A.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2021-edition-disc-file-players

[greggy]

I have read this before and believed the Antipodes would only improve the rendering side on my main system but both myself and my wife have no doubt our second system a kef ls50w  definitely improved substantially . It was not what I expected 

[Stereophilus]

5 hours ago, dbastin said:

I am curious about S60.  I gather it has 2 outputs, one could be used to power ER and it may be better than whatever it replaced ... the question is how much better?

Using the S60 in that way may defeat the isolation achieved by using the ER.  I know that using the JS-2 in this way can lead to worse SQ.

 

5 hours ago, dbastin said:

Very interesting given Stereophile rates the Nucleus very highly.  They might need to create a rating better than A.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2021-edition-disc-file-players

Hmm.  Stereophile reviewers are not what they used to be.  To be frank they struggle with digital frontier knowledge and reviews.

[dbastin]

2 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

Using the S60 in that way may defeat the isolation achieved by using the ER.  I know that using the JS-2 in this way can lead to worse SQ.

 

JCAT PSU isolates the output ground, presumably to avoid this.  It appears from photos of internals, the ground from the DC ouput jacks are connected directly to the earth from the power input (which connected to the chassis) the ground does not come from the PSU circuit board.

 

Antipodes may do the same thing.

 

It has occurred to me that perhaps ER could be powered from a PSU 'hot' DC voltage out only (ie. No ground), and ground the ER directly from its ground to Earth.  I have no idea if this is safe though.

[Stereophilus]

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

JCAT PSU isolates the output ground, presumably to avoid this.  It appears from photos of internals, the ground from the DC ouput jacks are connected directly to the earth from the power input (which connected to the chassis) the ground does not come from the PSU circuit board.

 

Antipodes may do the same thing.

I imagine the PCB will need a ground link as well, so they will all be at the same potential?  Or are you inferring the PCB will use a different potential?

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

It has occurred to me that perhaps ER could be powered from a PSU 'hot' DC voltage out only (ie. No ground), and ground the ER directly from its ground to Earth.  I have no idea if this is safe though.

This is kinda what I do.  Uptone JS-2 has a floating ground (ie DC output is not connected to mains earth) feeding ER which is separately grounded.

[dbastin]

2 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

I imagine the PCB will need a ground link as well, so they will all be at the same potential?  Or are you inferring the PCB will use a different potential?

 

I'd say the PCB is grounded from whete it has least resistance to ground. The photos of JCAT are not quite that revealing.

 

This is a bit long winded but explains more.

 

My understanding is any electricity current on ground will go to the most attractive ground potential on the path of least resistance. At every junction in that journey it goes towards the most attractive until it ultimately gets to Mother Earth (the dirt surrounding the Earth rod).  That can possibly be ...

 

Power inlet > PSU > ER > ground > Earth

 

Hence it could possibly carry noise on the ground from a PSU upstream, which can possibly be passed on.

 

Further, it could possibly carry noise from a device on one PSU output across to a 2nd output on that PSU - depending on how its ground is designed.  For instance ..

 

S40 server > S60 LPS > ER > ground > Earth.

 

Some people are careful to use ethernet cables that disconnect the shield at the upstream end, to reduce the possibility of noise being passed on.

 

These are possibilities, not a certainty.  I am no expert but I assume there are many variables that may dictate this does not occur.

 

So when JCAT connect the ground from its outputs directly to Earth I assume the intent is to:

 

1. disconnect PSU PCB ground from whatever it is powering

 

... by ...

 

2. possibly provide a path of lower resistance to Mother Earth.

 

To illustrate this, in my case I have implemented a signal ground system where every signal ground (from signal outputs) is connected by high conductivity low resistance wire to a star ground point and from there directly to the Earth of the AC power coming into the room, which is a dedicated 12 AWG shielded wire directly to Earth Rod.  I don't know if it is the best ground potential (probably not for high current) but it does improve the sound quite a bit. 

 

importantly, for safety it does not substitute the pathways to earth for high current AC shorts which is via all the AC inlets and cable earth back to the Earth Rod. 

[ikhuong]

My EtherRegen has a new home,

 

For now I would follow Antipodes’s recommended setup and won’t put anything in bw Antipodes S40 and Streamer, except a very high quality Ethernet cable. Antipodes has done something  in spectrum and noise management. The cleanest signal does not mean the most musical in their new design, hence there is combination between switch mode and LPS in their new PSU design 

 

this is also true as I owned Hyposos Ferrum PSU which is a hybrid design of switch mode and lps and it gives more organic and natural sound than Uptone JS-2  that I owned for a while, the difference is small but can be heard

 

 

 

[dbastin]

14 hours ago, ikhuong said:

The cleanest signal does not mean the most musical

 

Not to stir up debate, but for consideration, my view is musicality of audio is not a substitute for the music itself.  It is, in my understanding, a subjective additive.

 

I'd rather my ethernet transmission not affect the musicality already created and captured in the recording of the music, and all the gear, techniques and great lengths and expense the recording artists used to achieve that musicality.

 

For example

Telefunken Ela M 251E

The Telefunken Ela M 251E (link to check the price at B&H Photo/Video) is a reproduction of one of the all-time greatest microphones to ever be produced. The Ela M 251E is a multi-pattern large-diaphragm side-address tube condenser microphone.

 

The original, now-vintage Telefunken Ela M 251s go for tens of thousands of dollars on vintage markets. The 251E remake only goes for $10,000 USD! Although this microphone seems ridiculously expensive, it still gets purchased and used in studios around the world today.

I also once saw an interview with very well awarded recording engineer who, when asked by the interviewers to estimate the value of the impact of a particular microphone cable made to the quality of recording a vocalist, he commented it was not 1,000s or 10,000s, it made a 6 figure difference.

 

Then there is the microphone pre amps, etc, etc.

 

The cynic in me says the term musicality is marketting speak for 'there is distortion/additives but we made it sound nice'.  Oddly a prominent hifi salesman once told me a Velodyne subwoofer (known for ultra low distortion) was very musical.  Go figure ...

[delphi17]

I think the fact any gear we use that differs to whatever the particular studio used for particular album is going to add coloration or difference to what was originally intended.

Every studio is going to be different.

 

Hi-end audio is always going to be subjective.

That's what's fun about it, to tailor music based on what your taste is.