djb Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Cruel 5 ppl in room consumed I fine bottle of French wine supplied by Andy. takes more than that to buy russ let alone Hugh deans expertise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 Well, finally the art work is fixed to the wall. (A very delicate operation as the studs were difficult to locate accurately, through double sheets of Soundcheck plasterboard! ) Now for the listening test! (To see whether it actually does do any diffusion and so delivers extra soundstage depth.) @guru, are you still planning on coming down with your 'shoebox'? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 So Andy. Looks good. Does it do anything to the sound? Btw, don't let the grand children into the room. They will be climbing on top of the turntable to pull some of those nice colours off the wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasebass Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 On 03/12/2017 at 7:36 PM, andyr said: I have now got to work on my 'lack of soundstage depth' problem. In my last house, I had my Maggies in a nice big room - 8m x 5.1m ... with a cathedral ceiling that was 2.7m at the side (long) walls and ~5.5m in the centre. (I forget the exact height - I specified the rake angle between the 2 ceiling panels to be 100 deg ... so that I wouldn't get the infinitely repeating reflection from floor up to one ceiling panel, horizontally across to the other – then down to the floor ... and then up to the ceiling panel to repeat the reflection, which a 90 deg rake would've delivered.) The room worked very well and, because of the length, I was able to have my Maggies 1.6m (1/5th room length) off the front wall - which gave me a great soundstage. I then added a pair of DIY 'Room Tunes' – and got more soundstage depth! ? (Room Tunes were a commercial product from the mid 80s (I think) which didn't last long. What they did - for Maggies, anyway - was diffuse the reflections from the ribbons off the front wall to the listener.) Anyway, a guy named Jon Risch published a DIY design for Room Tunes, on Audio Asylum - basically, each Room Tune consists of 3 lengths of 50mm plastic pipe fixed to a base so they stood about 18mm apart but not quite parallel. I made up a pair of these and found that, when I placed them about 100mm off the front wall, in line with the reflection off the front wall from the ribbons to my ears ... they greatly increased the depth of field I could hear. Amazing! With the Room Tunes in place, you could hear the sound stage extending a long way back ... laying them down on the floor reduced the depth to no more than where the front wall was! Because of this experience, it seemed to me that - for dipoles, anyway - soundstage depth can be increased by diffusing the higher frequency reflections only ... you don't need to have a thick diffusor which diffusing LFs requires? And a subsequent discussion on an SNA thread about diffusors under “Room Acoustics, Construction and Design” suggested that I was on the right track. Why this is important to me is that my current listening room is much smaller than what I used to have. I can only have my panels 900mm off the front wall and as a result, I don't experience much in the way of soundstage depth. So I was hoping that putting some kind of diffusor on the front wall - which is designed to work with HFs only - would deliver the increase in soundstage depth that I am craving. Due to my previous good experience with plastic piping, I had been thinking of a vertical & horizontal lattice of 25mm OD pipes, say 50mm apart - and painted the same colour as the wall. But the good wife wasn’t having a bar of plastic pipes on the wall! (And it is a room that she uses, from time to time!) Anyway, after some research on the net, she pointed me to a guy in the US who makes “wall sculptures” out of wood blocks, joined together with steel rod – which she would countenance having on the wall. As he doesn’t ship outside the US, I decided I would make something better (bigger!) than what he does, myself! I started off by researching what widths and thicknesses of wood I could buy in Bunnings (this was important because Bunnings offers a cutting service – I don’t have a drop saw!). Then I used Visio to draw up the design – which (inspired by the Melbourne Recital Centre Salon) ended up as 30 pieces of wood, of various types, widths, lengths and thicknesses, taking up a space which is 600mm high x just over 2m wide. With a requirement from my wife that the pieces of wood had to be painted in colours that match the 4 chairs we have in the room. This peculiar size is due to the wall behind my Maggies being: sloping (due to Building Regs), with a pair of thin dormer windows, and bisected by the bench which my gear rests on. Below the bench is storage for LPs – which provides a diffusing surface – but there is also a 300mm high vertical panel above the LPs, which may also have to be treated with a diffusion layer, at some future stage. (Depending on the success of the wall piece!) Then I went and bought the pieces of wood from Bunnings (who cut them to length) – plus 2x 5m lengths of 5/16” diameter, thick-walled brass tube, to be used to join the pieces of wood together – and got to work! Lots of sanding & drilling later, here is a pic of the pieces all laid out on the floor: Andy......Have you ever looked at some smaller speakers..??....your almost sitting on those Maggies in this image.... No wonder you aint getting any front to back depth... Tase 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundbyte Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 I suggest that you might try reducing the level of all frequencies from the rear of the main speakers (dacron, foam 25 mm thick, acoustic batt about 50 mm deep, full panel length) suspended approx 50 - 100 mm behind the panels, between the two uprights of the metal speaker stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guru Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, andyr said: Well, finally the art work is fixed to the wall. (A very delicate operation as the studs were difficult to locate accurately, through double sheets of Soundcheck plasterboard! ) Now for the listening test! (To see whether it actually does do any diffusion and so delivers extra soundstage depth.) @guru, are you still planning on coming down with your 'shoebox'? Andy Yes Andy, I have some gear to deliver but unsure if it will be March or April, waiting on confirmation from the factory floor. Will give you plenty of notice though and I have some other interesting party tricks up my sleeve. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, soundbyte said: I suggest that you might try reducing the level of all frequencies from the rear of the main speakers (dacron, foam 25 mm thick, acoustic batt about 50 mm deep, full panel length) suspended approx 50 - 100 mm behind the panels, between the two uprights of the metal speaker stands. Mmmm ... you seem to know nothing about Maggies. Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 20 minutes ago, guru said: Yes Andy, I have some gear to deliver but unsure if it will be March or April, waiting on confirmation from the factory floor. Will give you plenty of notice though and I have some other interesting party tricks up my sleeve. Cheers. Excellente! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Tasebass said: Andy......Have you ever looked at some smaller speakers..??....your almost sitting on those Maggies in this image.... No wonder you aint getting any front to back depth... Tase Aah, Tase ... as a guy that listens to Linn speakers ... you just don't understand the 'Maggie magic'! Think of them (in nearfield listening) as massive headphones. Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, metal beat said: So Andy. Looks good. Thank you Shane. Yes, visually it is good (wifey is very happy! ) ... I just hope that it also improves soundstage depth ... by delivering some diffusion. Quote Does it do anything to the sound? Have not yet been able to sit down and listen seriously. First impressions are - yes (but only a little bit - which is certainly good!). I need to have a consensus from my "golden-eared panel" before I can accept that, though! Quote Btw, don't let the grand children into the room. They will be climbing on top of the turntable to pull some of those nice colours off the wall Good point - I will remember this when grand kids come along. Andy Edited February 26, 2018 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasebass Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, andyr said: Aah, Tase ... as a guy that listens to Linn speakers ... you just don't understand the 'Maggie magic'! Andy ...and a whole bunch of others..........but yeah I dont understand that Maggie stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundbyte Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, andyr said: Mmmm ... you seem to know nothing about Maggies. Andy I have had pair to listen to in my house for a couple of weeks. The crossovers were modified at the request of a friend, so I do in fact know a little about them, but only a little. I do know I am prepared to try suggestions from others for my system, even though I think they may be of little benefit to me, I have been wrong though, some have worked and worked well, go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 7 hours ago, soundbyte said: I have had pair to listen to in my house for a couple of weeks. The crossovers were modified at the request of a friend, so I do in fact know a little about them, but only a little. I do know I am prepared to try suggestions from others for my system, even though I think they may be of little benefit to me, I have been wrong though, some have worked and worked well, go figure. Apologies for casting nasturtions on your character. But if the ones you are listening to have the foam/batt blanket suspended behind then you are not getting the best out of them. Likewise if they are too close to the front wall. Just as a matter of interest, what did your friend have done to the XOs? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundbyte Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, andyr said: Apologies for casting nasturtions on your character. But if the ones you are listening to have the foam/batt blanket suspended behind then you are not getting the best out of them. Likewise if they are too close to the front wall. Just as a matter of interest, what did your friend have done to the XOs? Andy Your efforts at apologetic humor failed miserably, sorry. Casting aspersions might have been the words to use? The speakers I listened to at home were bare, others have been bare as well. Listening at home the speakers were at least 1.2 metres from the rear wall and 1 metre from the side wall. Your situation looks like it may benefit from the "blankets" to test what is going on with your listening environment. So I was hoping that putting some kind of diffusor on the front wall - which is designed to work with HFs only - would deliver the increase in soundstage depth that I am craving. It would seem from this comment you are not getting best out of them either? As for what was done to the crossovers that is up to my friend to reveal the details, it is his business, he thought the modifications were an improvement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Spade Audio Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 17 hours ago, soundbyte said: I suggest that you might try reducing the level of all frequencies from the rear of the main speakers (dacron, foam 25 mm thick, acoustic batt about 50 mm deep, full panel length) suspended approx 50 - 100 mm behind the panels, between the two uprights of the metal speaker stands. Putting an absorber behind a dipole would reduce the rear radiation, converting from dipole to a radiation pattern that might approximate a cardiod. You can do this with any dipole (ESL, Planar, dynamic driver open baffle) with a similar impact, however, most dipole owners actually like their spatial characteristics. As a long term Maggie owner, Andy is clearly in that camp. Adding absorption on the front wall or directly behind the speaker, subjectively speaking, reduces the sound stage depth which dipoles are known and appreciated for as well as tightening the focus of the stereo image. This would tend to favour some types of music over others. Classical music works particularly well with dipoles because they are the best speakers for making a room sound bigger than it really is. Ambience and spaciousness are then more important than getting a precise image. For Andy this would be a step away from his goal. 17 hours ago, Tasebass said: Andy......Have you ever looked at some smaller speakers..??....your almost sitting on those Maggies in this image.... No wonder you aint getting any front to back depth... Tase When your wife accepts your big speakers, moving to small is a one way ticket! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, soundbyte said: The speakers I listened to at home were bare, others have been bare as well. Listening at home the speakers were at least 1.2 metres from the rear wall and 1 metre from the side wall. Your situation looks like it may benefit from the "blankets" to test what is going on with your listening environment. It would seem from this comment you are not getting best out of them either? From the listening experience I had in my last house, where I had an 8m x 5.1m listening room and the Maggies were 1.6m off the front wall ... I know I'm not getting the best from my Maggies in the new room - as the panels are only about 900 off the front wall. In that previous room, I found I got a substantial increase in soundstage depth when I introduced some diffusion on the front wall, in the path of the reflected ray from the ribbons, off the front wall, to my ears. Hence my attempt to introduce some diffusion in the new room - diffusion that my wife needs to be happy with! Paul has kindly explained why you don't want to hang felt etc 100mm off the back of the panels. Quote As for what was done to the crossovers that is up to my friend to reveal the details, it is his business, he thought the modifications were an improvement. NP - I have no issues with people modifying Magnepan XOs and improving the sound - i first did this over 20 years ago (when I had MG-IIIas). Is this friend of yours a poster on SNA? Andy Edited February 27, 2018 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundbyte Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, andyr said: Paul has kindly explained why you don't want to hang felt etc 100mm off the back of the panels. I understand that there are issues with doing the hanging blanket. The "blanket" should confirm a further reduction in soundstage. 10 minutes ago, andyr said: NP - I have no issues with people modifying Magnepan XOs and improving the sound - i first did this over 20 years ago (when I had MG-IIIas). Is this friend of yours a poster on SNA? No he is not a poster on SNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 minute ago, soundbyte said: No he is not a poster on SNA. Then, obviously, he is not going to reveal the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonefishing999 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) @andyr Andy did you get soundstage from all recordings in your last house? Peter Edited February 27, 2018 by gonefishing999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 7 minutes ago, gonefishing999 said: @andyr Andy did you get soundstage from all recordings in your last house? Peter Yes, Peter, I got good soundstage depth because the panels were much further away from the front wall than they are now. But I got great soundstage depth when I introduced some "Room Tunes" to provide diffusion of the sound "ray" from the back of the ribbons, onto the front wall and thence to my ears. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonefishing999 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 @andyr So "yes" means all recordings ? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 38 minutes ago, gonefishing999 said: @andyr So "yes" means all recordings ? Peter "Yes" means "all LPs that actually have a soundstage recorded". My way of viewing this topic (yours may well be different, Peter) is that if I experience great soundstage depth on some recordings ("Hotel California" on The Eagles "HFOT" album, for instance - where the audience claps & whistles disappear off waaay back as well as waaay out to each side) ... then that proves my system is capable of delivering it. But if it's not recorded ... it won't be able to be delivered. My issue is that currently - listening to Hotel California in the new room ... the soundstage is not as deep as I remember it was in the old room. So I am trying to remedy this. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonefishing999 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 @andyr Andy I do not get soundstage on quite a few recording but this has nothing to do with live recording. I have no comments as to whether your speaker have soundstage or not ,I merely asked if ss was on all recordings. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 4 hours ago, gonefishing999 said: @andyr Andy I do not get soundstage on quite a few recording but this has nothing to do with live recording. I have no comments as to whether your speaker have soundstage or not ,I merely asked if ss was on all recordings. Peter Well, I divide "soundstage" into 3 dimensions, Peter - width, height ... and depth. I get plenty of width & height on all recordings - but, yes, some more than others. Significant depth, however, is the holy grail which I am searching for. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zydeco Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Well, during the week it occurred to me that, due to me using the digital input on my miniDSP unit (instead of 4x analogue inputs) ... I can run the 10x10HD at 96kHz instead the 48kHz needed for 4x analogue inputs. So I ordered the 2x8 plug-in and, in preparation for the listening test tomorrow, today loaded all the settings into the 2x8 software. So the stored configs on my 10x10HD now include a 48kHz setting ... and an identical config, running at 96kHz. It should be interesting tomorrow whether we can hear any advantage with the 96kHz setting. [emoji4] Andy Good idea. How did you get the settings from the 10x10HD loaded onto the new 2x8 plug-in? Wee you just able to load the configuration from the 48Hz plug-in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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