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Help with Entry Level Active Setup in New Room


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Hi guys,

 

This will likely be long winded but i'll note any parts you can skip.

 

Backstory (skipable)

3 or so years ago I decided id had enough of logitech and wanted something decent with a small footprint for my desktop which where I do the most listening. Actives seemed to fill the gap as well as being near field so I listened to a few but ended up blindly purchasing some Swan T200b's largly due to the awesome reviews they have and because they come with a relatively flat SPL vs Freq curve for each speaker which I figued would be easier to match to components/tune to a room if need be than something with a more defined character. If thats worth the paper it's written on I have no idea but I was very happy with the speaker although not completely. 

 

Months of reading later I had a new ASIO capable sound card, a Swan H10 sub, and a Rega DAC and was loving every note, but was very unsatisfied with how difficult it was to control volume so added a Matrix M-stage headphone amp/pre amp and a pair of AGK K702's. Obviously caught the bug  and dove straight into the deep end but managed to turn myself off after spending the half the cost of the system on chord chameleon RCA's and prodac coax, which were way better than what I had and but i'm not sure they are thaaat much better; and some power cords which didn't really fit the cramped space I had everything in so were resold. 

 

So overall my current system is...

 

 

System

Room Dimensions     Door Wall - 361cm    Window Wall - 338cm    Height - 243cm 

 

DSC_0029_zpsuv221ttp.jpg

 

Sorry about the mess! ;-) 

DSC_0032_zpsdcvy6lrk.jpg

 

Soundcard - Auzen X-Meridian 7.1 2G (ASIO capable, AUX & optical outputs)

 

DAC - Rega DAC (RCA only)

 

Preamp/ Headphone Amp - Matrix M-Stage (with AGK K702's)

 

Active Speakers - Swan T200b (RCA + XLR Inputs) 

http://www.swanspeaker.com/products/products.aspx?cid=5&sid=0&pid=29&cmenu=spec

 

Sub (currently disconnected) - Swan H10

http://www.swanspeaker.com/products/products.aspx?cid=1&sid=0&pid=123&single=subwoofer

 

Power cables - Stock  

 

Available cables

Coaxial/Optical - Chord Prodac 1m + up to 4m noname 6mm Optical 

RCA - Chord Chameleon 1m, 2m & 4m

 

Note: Current photographed setup is using one of the 4m chameleons as a coaxial as I did't have anything long enough and the 4m optical is in the mail. 

 

Questions

Broad Outline

So basically I'd like some help/guidance in how I should have this all setup to get the most from it. I am no longer in a share unit but in a house with a small family (big change in 3 years) so am aiming to keep things childproof, cheap, and improve the speaker SQ as much as possible as I rarely use the headphones. 

 

In my old room in our old share unit it was all thrown into a desk with a hood/cabinets over the top in a tiny room so using the sub made for seemingly more even low volume on frequency tests but in this new room with new desks and the speakers in the open they sound much better without the sub which either sounds directional at some frequencies if not under the desk, or leaves big gaps and volume increases in frequency tests wherever i seem to place it under the desk.

 

I chose to put the dac and headphone amp to the left as they fit nicely, are away from the PC and the draws on the right side are fixed. The current PC location also allows heat to go out the window.

 

It is possible for me to move everything to the smaller desk and place it in front of the window which i'm sure will be suggested. But I obviously chose the larger easier for cable management work space first and the window is a front window to the street. Room treatment is unlikely as it will be a play room/work room for partner too but some minor inexpensive work might be possible if deemed essential such as a thick blind. :-). 

 

 

Specific Questions

1. The Matrix M-stage - The only real use the headphone amp has had is as a preamp volume control, it requires an extra power cord and I have always felt it was the weakest link (although I cant really A/B test it easily I felt adding it and the sub took sound stage and depth away from the speakers (more specifically the sub). From an SQ standpoint, would it be worth removing the M-stage and adding a passive preamp instead?  

Limited to RCA connectors from the Rega DAC all I can really find is the Goldpoint SA1.

http://www.goldpt.com/sa1.html

 

Or I could use something cheap like this. http://www.amazon.com/Scosche-RLC-Remote-Level-Control/dp/B002EEP3WA/ref=sr_1_6?&ie=UTF8&qid=1309580499&sr=8-6 

I cringe at the thought of connecting chameleons to it, but it would be easy to put under the desk. Unfortunately I cant find much suitable priced in between. The goldpoint seems a lot but not undo-able and much better than anything than I can build. But if it is an upgrade or not from the matrix I have no idea and the matrix only uses 7w of power in usual listening so I cant justify the cost using the power use either ;-).

 

Note: I am considering a new and larger screen (and have ordered a new longer display port cable so i can actually center this one) so may end up hiding the DAC behind it in which case a small volume control to tuck under the screen would be nice but i'm also unsure if this is a recipe to increase interference having it all so close to the screen? 

 

 

2. The H10 Sub - Recon its worth keeping? At a guess I think the rear corner behind me might be best but is a rental so cant cable through the walls/roof and that 4 rca run on the floor is too much so I am considering selling it.

As mentioned I could move to the smaller desk and maybe it would work better but against the window isn't ideal with everything else that has to go in the room. However, I could probably setup on the smaller desk where it currently is but fear while this corner desk beast is in here + my partners stuff and sons toys that are yet to come, and because i'm not treating the room the 10" sub is never going to be quite right. Although i couldn't get it to sound good under or away from the desk, I didn't remember to try with the filing cabinet the dac is on removed. Any input/thought appreciated.  

 

 

 

3. RCA's - Will using different length RCA's from the headphone amp to the speakers make a difference to SQ/timing at short lengths? I'm currently using a 4m to one speaker and 2m to the other which made routing away from power cables easy and didn't leave a 2m of left overs for the left speaker I didn't notice a difference but am having trouble finding an answer in searches. 

 

 

 

4. Power Cables - Do you think its worth upgrading these for this system? I am sometimes easily swayed by hype (as you can probably tell haha) and as mentioned I want the best from what I have got but am not in a position to spend heaps. I wouldn't go much beyond RK cables VMF or Lorad's plus the Rega has a clover plug and the speakers figure 8 so it takes up a bit of room with adapters/weight on the little plugs etc. But I have read many times the rega likes an upgrade too.... 

 

 

 

 

And that's about it for now. Thanks if you made it through this far :-). I am open to all ideas really and moving to the other desk if need be. Probably even to selling off everything but or including the speakers and buying a new DAC with inbuilt volume control and XLR connectors. But the budget wouldn't go much beyond what i could sell it all for and I really am happy with the sound I currently have. Its made me love music I didn't even know i liked. I just discovered Sara K after setting up here a few days ago and looking for new test tracks and wow! 

 

I really appreciate any help guys I have been a long time reader and am saving for a house deposit so I can eventually build a system and room together and can invest in something I cant help but close my eyes to with every note. haha :-)

Edited by tom012
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Tom.

 

 

Inexpensive Room Treatment Options

 

 

I would use thick drapes instead of blinds for minimum room treatment options. A dark colour is good as dark colours absorb sound better than light coloured materials. I would invest in velvet fabric drapes (made-to-measure) as a starting point, that can be afixed to the top of the window by means of a pelmet like structure thereby allowing room ventilation with the window open as well.

 

 

You have an almost square shaped room according to your measurements which is not usually ideal for sound reproduction from 2-channel setups however because you are using active speakers, they can be placed almost anywhere within the room without standing waves having a detrimental effect on music playback. You could invest in 2-4 cheap bass traps that could be placed in each corner of your listening room, if you so choose, to help with room acoustics and sound dampening. A cheap Persian rug placed over the carpet can also help with room acoustics.

 

 

Inexpensive uplighting in the form of floor lamps (new or second-hand) can be used to add diffuse lighting to the room so that you do not have the overhead bright light while doing non-work stuff at your computer. It can also set the mood for more enjoyable listening sessions from your setup.

 

 

If you did have thick drapes positioned in front of your window, you could place your corner workdesk directly opposite the window. The drapes will also absorb sound coming from the active speaker setup and also lower light levels so that you can have an almost theatre-like experience to view movies/work at night/play games, etc., as well. For a budget conscious audiophile, these are attainable goals that can help achieve the desired outcome that you have indicated in your post.

 

 

 

Specific Questions

1The Matrix M-stage 

 

The current headphone amp with inbuilt DAC that you have is a good piece of kit. I would suggest that you keep it for all your headphone listening sessions. The advantages of a passive preamplifier over an active preamplifier are documented well but from your pricepoint, there are many options for you to consider in terms of unit. I have included the following links for you to use as a comparison in choosing the right passive preamp for you:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SINGLE-ENDED-passive-preamp-preamplifier-48-Stepped-attenuator-HIGHEND-/121367551932

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tisbury-Audio-Mini-Passive-Pre-Amp-Stepped-Attenuator-Preamplifier-/171062829201

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Release-LUMINOUS-AUDIO-Axiom-Mk-II-passive-pre-amp-/130678286565

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Passive-Preamplifier-3-inputs-2-outputs-/281570374790

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEI-XING-MC-9-Passive-Preamplifier-Recommended-/170465480435

 

The Mei Xing MC-9 preamp is a discontinued model but is my pick of the entry level models listed above for its wide frequency response and dead quiet background. These all fit within your budgetary considerations and the used hifi market would be my recommended place to source any of this equipment. It is a good way to spend less while still achieving what you are after in terms of sound quality and end-user satisfaction on your way to buying better in the not-too-distant future. There are literally hundreds of passive preamps available for sale now and I would do a bit of research first before launching into purchasing the first cheap one you see.

 

Most modern PC monitors/TVs are heavily shielded and won't flicker or be disrupted by placement of electrical equipment nearby unless it is military equipment, medical equipment, x-ray equipment, etc. There are, of course, some exceptions but nothing you own should have any effect on its placement near or underneath your monitor.

 

 

2The H10 Sub

 

Keep it. The subwoofer has a wide and flat frequency response. You can place it anywhere within your room, even in the middle of the room if you wished, as the subwoofer is only used for low soundwaves that fall below a certain frequency that your active monitors will be unable to reproduce. It adds that low end depth that you may desire in film soundtracks or orchestral works where timpani drums need to be heard among a chorus of loud stringed instruments. The subwoofer is the missing link with active studio monitors unless you invest highly for more resolving speakers. Make use of the subwoofer for what it was intended for: dramatic effects as opposed to boomy bass confined in a clapped-out Ford Torana racing around the streets. The subwoofer you own is manufactured by the same people who made your speakers. They all have synergy.

 

 

3. RCA's

 

There should be no noticeable difference in sound quality or timing for that matter with the short distances you have for cable connections between components. I wouldn't be too concerned about this part of your system for the time being until you make substantial upgrade changes from the equipment you currently own.

 

 

4. Power Cables

 

 

Again, I would concentrate on room treatment and leave cables/interconnects alone for the time being. Your speakers output sound to your ears. You have to really enjoy that first before you play about with all the other variables such as equipment upgrades. Get the placement right for your setup and start enjoying the music as it was meant to be enjoyed. Play around with different room placement options and record what affects what in your setup so that 6 months down the track, you have a better idea of what can be achieved on a small budget to get the most out of your music. 

 

 

 

Invite as many people as you can to listen to different setups you have with your equipment. They can give you varied perspectives on what they hear as right or wrong to their audible perceptions. Make notes on where there are improvements or problems and then post your results on here. There are so many knowledgeable enthusiasts on these threads that are always willing to give advice: for free. Take advantage of that as much as you can.

 

 

 

Regards,

Brett.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

I had thought I had scared everyone off with my massive post. As a veteran in a few other non audio forums, i know confused newbies don't always get the love they need. 

 

Thank you so so much Brett :-)

 

The tisbury audio preamp had recently became my 1 choice but I will keep an eye of for another MEI Xing too. I hadn't stumbled on them yet. 

And thanks Henry, using software control now, but would rather a dedicated pre for those quick mutes, vol changes between programs etc.

 

 

I have actually made some major changes since my post. I ended up selling everything except the Rega DAC and struggled to survive without music for a few weeks. In that time I listened to a few traditional set ups but still found myself drawn to monitors. A few days ago I bought home some Adam A77X's and some isoAcoustics stands to put them on. <3ing them but they have sure highlighted how much work the room needs. 

 

The preamp and anything else is on hold until my UMIK-1 arrives and I can learn a bit more about my room and effects changes have. Its funny you mention curtains. I was finding my right ear was getting fatigued much faster than the left and hanging a dooner on the window made a huge difference so I have spent most of today researching curtains and reading up on flutter, reflections and standing waves. Its only a rental but so far this is number one on the list until i get a chance to check local shops for an equivalent. 

http://www.quickfitblindsandcurtains.com.au/bond-room-darkening-soft-drape-eyelet-curtain-panel-avail-in-4-sizes-black.html

 

 

I have actually rotated the tweeters in the speakers so I could have them vertically which sounds much better in the corner but getting ready to do a day of rearranging and moving to the smaller desk in front of the window. I will of course leave a gap but its difficult without moving everything first to gauge how much space I can actually leave and still fit everything else in here. 

 

Other than that the main project on the cards will be DIY acoustic panels. Soooo many posts and soo much confusion on this topic especially with the different types available in different countries. But from what I can gather Bradford Rockwool Fibertex 350 seems a common go to in Australia (literally reading up on all this now) so that might be my start.

 

Sounding like I am on the right track? haha hope so..........

 

Probably will aim for 4 side wall panels to start and then see where/if i can fit bass traps. 

 

These speakers are pretty amazing even in the horrible setup they are in.

 

Thanks again. I will check back more often now :-)

Edited by tom012
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"A dark colour is good as dark colours absorb sound better than light coloured materials."

 

There's something wrong with the physics here.  That's a snake oil statement.

 

Great choice for an upgrade of speakers.  One of the issues you will have is to decide is if the sound is for your desk seating position or for the room in genera.  Are you still using the speakers at 90 degrees facing your seating position?  The issue with this position is that there is no imagiing for the room.  As you say yourself in the first post, either side of the window is an o=option, but this obviously compromses your listening enjoyment when seated at your desk.

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Thanks for the input shogun2. They are for me. It wont be a $$ making room, at least not while renting. Just for a little hobby writing & mixing, the occasional unpaid friends wedding or similar track mix (done a whole 2 so far) and a whole lot of listening. They are setup now similar to the old speakers in the first post but pointing a little more past my ears, not directly at them. 

 

I will be moving in front of the window though. I have moved the speakers to the far right of the desk for a quick test and it made a much bigger sweet spot. This isn't essential for now, but might as well let guests enjoy them too.

 

Hoping to get the testing mic soon as I really want this to be a learning experience based on data as well as personal preference rather than just guess work. It about time I took it as seriously as my now empty wallet has been.  

 

Ebay is having 15% off everything right now so again I've got the urge to pull the trigger on a preamp. 

Arek who is the maker of one of the preamps Brett linked has said he can make one with both RCA and XLR inputs/outputs so now leaning towards that a little as it seems a decent future proof option. PITA to have to spend 1/2 to full price of the dac just to control the volume. Made me research DACs with volume control again but to actually "upgrade" the rega it seems ill be up for a hell of a lot more. Either way I want the pre to be something I only have to buy once and can be happy with in future systems if need be. So the reading continues......................
Thanks again :-)  

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My desk setup is USB out of my MacBook Pro through a Lavry DA11 DAC to a pair of JBL LSR305 monitors. The Lavry has a digital volume control on the front panel.

The LSR speakers are budget monitors, but fine for my non critical listening. If I need something better I have Tannoy monitors in other systems. I play with developing audio digital signal processing programs for live sound.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well my UMIK-1 mic arrived and I pulled the trigger on the Tisbury pre but i'm still in the corner :-(.

I'm happy with the pre and really cant tell any difference other than the volume drop (obviously) so now i'm onto the learning curve that is REW.

 

I've had a bit of trouble determining where exactly my ears are most so for now this is an over analysed "i think i spend most time here" test of the DAC vs DAC+pre in the setup. My plan is to get my partner to come in and say freeze when i'm immersed in something and try again. It seems to vary drastically with small moves. 

 

I had a bit of trouble matching the volumes and have smoothed to 1/48 in this one to make it easier to see any differences.

 

rew_zpslkg6okhn.png

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Deer I just listen no mic shift my head a bit get up tweak speaker toe in

Spin some more music

Wait till fter about a week of listening to the new components -no less- switch back to the old gear if there's a difference you'll hear it then

Only ever change 1 thing at a time and follow the same weeks listening at a time

Ideally have another addict visit for change back have them listen to 4 very different tracks on the current gear then do the change back relisten if they hear a difference it's real.

This should NOT be your partner they will laugh too much

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Old gear? I don't have any old gear....... 

 

And i have been listening to the speakers with no pre since I go the them near the end of September which more than covers the +1 week before making changes.

 

I also had a mate here who owns a basic recording studio last week so pretty sure I have most of that covered :-). Unfortunately he just threw $$ at his setup and other people did it all for him so couldn't input much. But he was might impressed with the A77x's

 

How do you know my partner isn't an audio addict? You'd be right, but then i'm not either, we just both play instruments and write and appreciate quality and accurate sound. 

 

Edit: my main concern with the cheaper pre was that lows or highs would roll off earlier which seemed to be a common complaint of some. I couldn't hear any changes by ear, and the graph shows that at least in my setup this wasn't the case. It may have been if I was using a sub or speakers that go to a lower frequency though.

Edited by tom012
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