BioBrian Posted November 17, 2017 Author Share Posted November 17, 2017 DATS plots: 23 I 52 (8"), in box, with & without 400 Hz LP filter: The filter seems to almost get rid of that wrinkle. The 15 H 52 (5") drivers in box, no filter: (Apparently no such problem). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusk Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) On 17/11/2017 at 1:00 PM, BioBrian said: I haven't chased RAAL yet, but they do seem very popular in DIY. How low can they safely go at reasonably high sound levels? Can go down to 1.8Khz LR4, l run mine at 2.3KHz with LR2. raal-70-20xr.pdf Edited November 21, 2017 by lusk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 No more sawdust for a while, I hope! This pic shows the XOs. The lower mid one will be internal, after testing. The tweeter one will hopefully get a clear lid one day, to keep the dust out. The bigger upper mid one should get its own stand-alone box, and/or attach to the back of the box. The new system runs off one amp, and shows well the much lusted-after balance between driver sensitivities. I've tried about 8 different attenuation resistors for the tweeters, and that part's settling in. The system (they have to be labelled SSBATs now) is giving much of what I was after - really fruity on a great solo piano recording (eg Volodos' Brahms hi-def) and getting better by the hour on orchestral. Female vocals are just extraordinary. I feel safe that the AT drivers were a good choice - very pleased. The larger mid (still called 5") seems more appropriate than the SBA ones for my music styles and room size. Dynamic range is enormous. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) Spoke too soon about the sawdust - I made up the (brave words) permanent filter boards for the SB42 (bottom 15" woofer) boxes. These are now fitted, after some rather frustrated grunting over not having a nice little battery drill like everyone else these days. Total DCR is 0.12 Ohms through these C-coils. Due to these speakers residing next to a person who is not deaf (working on that), they've had limited burn-in, but they are sounding better each time. Great news is that Clay has started on my Konverter, which should complete the "next-level" that I've been working on for a couple of years now: Win 10/ASUS/LPSU fanless DC-powered computer/server - Ethernet cable - router or switch on LPSU - Idealish Snakeoil headless Server with Uptone JS-2 LPSU - Curious cable - Konverter - XLR cables - Parasound A21 power amp - DIY 4-Way passive speakers, as above. Other inputs: opt from TV, and coax from Oppo BDP-83 Special Edition, for both 2 channel and 7.1 channel (same front speakers). Edited December 31, 2017 by BioBrian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted December 6, 2017 Author Share Posted December 6, 2017 (edited) I think we just had a GTG! In response to my pleading for more ears to come and judge these speakers, Linc magicked himself, Sam, and Russell down here for a couple of concentrated hours of listening and discussion. It's hard to explain just how fragile I feel about the whole project, and this insecurity was a bit justified and highlighted the day before, when I took the 3-ways down to the house for more serious burn-in and testing. It's a perverse quirk of fate that my measuring system got struck down just before these babies got birthed, but I've had the gift of time to just listen, and not fiddle. I knew there was something not right, but being the builder I had this surety that both speakers were the same, there were no wiring errors, and any fault must be in the phase stuff between lower woofers, etc etc - a DIY blindness. Expectation bias, or its polar opposite? Is there such a thing as too much SNA? A head full of diversions? Anyway, as part of a clean-up, rewire, and reshuffle in preparation for the arrival of the Konverter, I trotted out my Blu-Ray test disc, and went through a whole bunch of routine tests. (AIX Records Audio Calibration Disc and HD Music Sampler - think it came with the OPPO). The problem showed in the phase test between Front Left and Centre speakers: some of the sound seemed in phase, some out, then when it played deliberately out of phase, some of it sounded better, other frequencies worse. So I undid the 4 driver wires and tested with a 1.5 V battery, and found one 8" mid-woofer wired in reverse (black to positive). Too soon after morning espresso on wiring day? I just can't get my head around how that is possible, but it happened. All back together, and the pair worked like fitting a limited-slip diff: much more solid bass, and general cohesion. Back in the Barn on top of the 15" woofers again, the system suddenly had a clarity and power that'd been missing, but my biased brain had glossed over in ignorance. I'm SO glad that got sorted before the 6 fresh Golden Ears arrived last night! So a lot of that jelly-belly insecurity had vanished, and I also got a big pat on the head from the discovery of "audiophile" tracks on YouTube. These make my system sound too good to be true, as I'm sure they're intended to. The makers of these tracks must be selling small speakers, because the bass, even at low levels, had the room really full and shaking, and there's a lot of instrument separation - must be awfully impressive in demo rooms. Playing 'real' music was the test though, and this I think highlighted the AT drivers - there were quite a few comments on the 5" Audio Technology mid, which I feel is still yet to show its full colours - they've barely done a dozen hours so far, and are getting more free in dynamics each hour. The weather blessed us with no wind or rain, so all listening was done with the Rolladoor wide open - there was also a general consensus that the birds and subtle bush ambience were a bit hard to ignore. With the door open, there's much less build-up of long wavelength stuff slapping around from one end of the building to the other - it was fairly different after the party was over, and I closed down/calmed down over a cooling ale. So, thanks gents, for the excellent comments and suggestions - I have a bit more homework to do. Thanks also for the great company, and confirmation that this pursuit is the only really meaningful thing in life, something to keep us mentally healthy and alert for decades to come . I'd really welcome any other comments that might come up after the event - I can't stress too much how valuable your insights are. And all other ears are welcome of course. BTW, the counter-tenor 'behind' the beautiful piano sound is a Pom with a Welsh name: And apologies for the savage choice of organ music! Aho's music is challenging, but most of it more listenable than the sample we endured. Edited December 28, 2017 by BioBrian grammar 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auracle Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 That was a great quickie! (GTG that is) You did an awesome job getting all that ready in time for our arrival, considering it was essentially a fresh build. Are you a glutton for punishment or an audio masochist? There was no need to fret over this as you are amongst friends. The definition from the AT drivers was very impressive, (and so they should be for that price). They played the various genres without complaint or distortion, which is a very good sign. Whilst the mountain scenery was magnificent, I found it challenging trying to pick detail from the music whilst the birds were singing along. I hope this project provides you with many hours of enjoyment and education. Keep up the good work. Thanks for the tasty spread also. (I hadn't had a chance to have breakfast yesterday) Have a great festive season. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upfront Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Brian, very impressive speakers in a beautiful location. By far my favorite listening room. It encompasses all my favorite things, hifi, timber, welders and one hell of a view! Thanks for having me! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Looking good Brian, well done, would be certainly a treat to have a listen. Hope to get there one day when every thing is settled/burnt in. Nothing like a battery polarity test to show up what's a miss. I use a 9v battery, it sits on the shelf for when ever things become disconnected and then re connected or starting off with something new. You aren't the only person to have connected a driver incorrectly in a multi way system (He who never made a mistake never made much) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upfront Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 (He who never made a mistake never made much) Never a truer word has been spoken! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted December 12, 2017 Author Share Posted December 12, 2017 It's very heartwarming to have the support and guidance from my no-longer-scary-internet friends - you're all welcome to share the views and wildlife (and speakers) anytime. Thanks for sharing your enthusiasm and journeys. The loss of Omnimic for the last few weeks has been very frustrating, resulting in a complete rebuild of my Win 10 system. My son came and did most of it, and while we were about it, did a complete rebuild of the Idealish Server (my "S8") firmware etc, which requires some very impressive Linux fingerwork. Blessed are the neurons of the young! (And educated too, of course). We reinstalled Omnimic and .... .... .... Error 217, blah blah again. ..... BUT later, while reloading all my stuff back onto the SSD and looking at remnant files from Omnimic, I tried opening the program again, and it worked! Firstly I'll say that the new Snakeoil build is markedly better than the old - I previously found MPD (17) to sound quite flat, 2-dimensional, and preferred JRiver, which sounded like it filled in a whole lot of missing info. This time, using new Snakeoil and new MPD (20-Git version), it sounds better than the previous JR setup - the instruments are noticeably more defined in the sound-stage, and the whole thing is more 3-dimensional and alive. I've been rather saddened by the apparent loss of faith in the "Idealish Server" department, so this is like a welcome transfusion for me. With the Clay's Konverter in the hands of couriers as we speak, I'm glad to have both the above issues sorted in time for all the new influences not to arrive at the same time, and not know what to blame, or thank, for the changes. So I'll post the good news first - I was very pleased with the first Omnimic trace: the upper 3-way "SAT", taken at upper-mid/tweeter axis, distance 1 m, 8 ms gate. It's one of the best I've seen in my 4? years of playing with this program and my projects: And I don't know if this'll be meaningful to anyone - it shows what happened when I wired the 5" mid-driver backwards, and took 2 readings, each with mike placed on the axes between the relevant drivers, to show the crossover frequencies (520 and 2700 Hz): Some of the rest looks less thrilling, or confusing, but I'll spare the questions for now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusk Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 12 hours ago, BioBrian said: And I don't know if this'll be meaningful to anyone - it shows what happened when I wired the 5" mid-driver backwards, and took 2 readings, each with mike placed on the axes between the relevant drivers, to show the crossover frequencies (520 and 2700 Hz): Very good, LR2 at each XO? How did you decide and put together the final xo design? as haven't noticed any mention of using software and seems you just put it together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted December 12, 2017 Author Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) Hi @lusk, The 3-way XO is the kit from Troels/Jantzen: AT 3-Way Classic, with the top level components. The 8" driver is a more sensitive version, and the tweeter is from the same 'family' of Scanspeak Illuminator ~3004s. The 15" woofer gets my trial-and-error (won't call it "design", as I didn't do it from maths or software, but it got a lot of empirical testing) 4th order filter. I can't copy/paste Troels' work here; his schematic is at http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AT-3WC.htm It's not a conventional LR2 - there's a resistor over the 5" mid series caps, and the mid has LCRs at both ends. The tweeter section also has an LCR. I'm running it with no attenuation resistors for all but the tweeter. I've been poring over the test results from yesterday, and it looks like I need some work on the 8" driver section - there's a dip in the phase curve that I'd like to understand better, and it might be a little too sensitive for the 5", as the XO point was supposed to be more like 400 Hz. But the mid/tweeter section seems to do mostly the right thing: I'd like to address that step at 1 kHz to soften the slight peak there in the summed response (ears also guide me here), but that fine tuning might need to wait in the queue! (The SBA tweeter wouldn't have this problem, with it's very nice roll-off, but might not have a matching dynamic range). Edited December 13, 2017 by BioBrian Mistake in description of XO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 The SAT 3 way looking like game over then Brian, response curve is very good Is the measurement done in field with the speaker elevated a little to get it away boundaries, or inside a room ? If it was done inside, the test may go better with lower boundary interaction although I guess that's what the 8ms gate is negating. Might also be worth downloading REW for a second software opinion and some fun https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusk Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) Thanks for the detail, the result you have there is very good. I would be happy with what you have come up with. You can spend heaps of time unnecessarily worrying over little response dips. If you want to take it further and haven't tried yet l would suggest using Jeff Bagby's xo designer and his FRD response blender to extract minimum phase plots to use in it. It is excellent free excel spreadsheet that is reasonably easy to use, it may take a bit of time to learn using it but you could tweek and refine your xo. l found creating xo with it and the actual response curves come out spot on. Edited December 13, 2017 by lusk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 21 hours ago, 125dBmonster said: ... response curve is very good Is the measurement done in field with the speaker elevated a little to get it away boundaries, or inside a room ? If it was done inside, the test may go better... Yes, inside. But 3.2 m ceiling, with 200 mm foam mattress up there. Speaker was twisted about 40 degrees to avoid reflection from lower woofer cone, and I had 2 layers of felt and 150 mm of wool batts on the floor. Nothing within over 2 m out the sides. 8 ms is longer than I can usually get away with, and it could have been more, maybe. A while ago I went around the paddocks near the Barn doing clap tests and listening - trying to find the best quiet spot for outdoor measurements, within reasonable distance from a power point. There's a spot that might suit, when I get the energy. Should be a bit of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted December 28, 2017 Author Share Posted December 28, 2017 If you think I've been a bit slack in reporting progress, there might be a reason or two: ... It's just taken ages to get the right critical mass for damping the new Server/Konverter setup! Every time I reduced the volume of fermented biomass in the crystal vessel, the sound seemed to get a more rosy glow; when I refilled it, there was a slight effervescence to the top end ... I really feel lost for words - no that can't be it - words that appropriately convey my experience of Clay Gieseler's new DAC/Preamp. Suffice to say, the system's fallen on its feet even more than I'd hoped, and it's making some lovely open, clear, holistic sounds. Another change was around the insecurity I had about the tweeter section. I've had the nagging thought that the larger tweeter area that proved better in measurements, and hence what I copied onto the new tweeter enclosures, actually sounded worse. So this heretical thought was eating into me - did my ears tell me one thing and measurements another? Nah, impossible! Then I realized that I'd changed the crossover as well - dur - and in the new one was an LCR with a Standard-Z capacitor, seemingly out of place amongst the royalty of Alumens in the mid-section. So I put in Superior-Zs instead, and that annoying 'fizz' sound, which I thought might be baffle interference, just disappeared! Sounded positively dull, in fact, until I realized what had really been going on. So I let them play in for a while, and ended up having to reduce the attenuation resistors to the tweeters, as I had tried to hide that fizz previously, not realizing it was about quality, not quantity. Today I got all enthused about more channels, so I could hear some new SACDs from Pentatone. Turned out that I had enough amps and preamps to cobble together another 3 channels, all with individual volume controls, and I could set the distance/delays within the player. So, it's been a bit of an orgy of 5 channels, which sounds great, but also uses up some of the idle speakers lying around gathering dust. Makes that messy backyard look a bit more orderly, too. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upfront Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 If you think I've been a bit slack in reporting progress, there might be a reason or two: ... It's just taken ages to get the right critical mass for damping the new Server/Konverter setup! Every time I reduced the volume of fermented biomass in the crystal vessel, the sound seemed to get a more rosy glow; when I refilled it, there was a slight effervescence to the top end ... I really feel lost for words - no that can't be it - words that appropriately convey my experience of Clay Gieseler's new DAC/Preamp. Suffice to say, the system's fallen on its feet even more than I'd hoped, and it's making some lovely open, clear, holistic sounds. Another change was around the insecurity I had about the tweeter section. I've had the nagging thought that the larger tweeter area that proved better in measurements, and hence what I copied onto the new tweeter enclosures, actually sounded worse. So this heretical thought was eating into me - did my ears tell me one thing and measurements another? Nah, impossible! Then I realized that I'd changed the crossover as well - dur - and in the new one was an LCR with a Standard-Z capacitor, seemingly out of place amongst the royalty of Alumens in the mid-section. So I put in Superior-Zs instead, and that annoying 'fizz' sound, which I thought might be baffle interference, just disappeared! Sounded positively dull, in fact, until I realized what had really been going on. So I let them play in for a while, and ended up having to reduce the attenuation resistors to the tweeters, as I had tried to hide that fizz previously, not realizing it was about quality, not quantity. Today I got all enthused about more channels, so I could hear some new SACDs from Pentatone. Turned out that I had enough amps and preamps to cobble together another 3 channels, all with individual volume controls, and I could set the distance/delays within the player. So, it's been a bit of an orgy of 5 channels, which sounds great, but also uses up some of the idle speakers lying around gathering dust. Makes that messy backyard look a bit more orderly, too. Good new Brian! GTG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted December 28, 2017 Author Share Posted December 28, 2017 Yeah Linc, let's be quick, before I definitely lose this game of "who's got the biggest"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upfront Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Yeah Linc, let's be quick, before I definitely lose this game of "who's got the biggest"! Ha! Don't feel inadequate Brian. My project is the smallest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 well done ! - what a journey since your started this thread On 12/7/2017 at 9:30 AM, BioBrian said: and I also got a big pat on the head from the discovery of "audiophile" tracks on YouTube. can you post some links to any particular tracks/channel? cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted December 28, 2017 Author Share Posted December 28, 2017 Hi Mike, good to hear from you. It all started here: Oh, I didn't realize it would do that; never mind. Then I noticed that there's another version that says "rebassed", which I've just tried at low level and it's quite ridiculous here (too much bass). Makes me wonder what DSP would do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted December 28, 2017 Author Share Posted December 28, 2017 Not sure if it's what I heard. I just Googled 'Chris Jones' and of course the brains of the new world took over. Otherwise, just 'Audiophile B&W YouTube' or something might get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 20 minutes ago, BioBrian said: Hi Mike, good to hear from you. It all started here: Oh, I didn't realize it would do that; never mind. Then I noticed that there's another version that says "rebassed", which I've just tried at low level and it's quite ridiculous here (too much bass). Makes me wonder what DSP would do! "that's going straight to the pool room"...sounds very good on the back deck system... Christmas time and "The Castle" quotes become inevitable..."what do you know about lead?", "tell him he's dreamin' ", "how's the serenity?" great to hear some hi-res stuff on you tube - good find and I'll seek some more out. cheers Mike ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 37 minutes ago, BioBrian said: Hi Mike, good to hear from you. It all started here: Oh, I didn't realize it would do that; never mind. Then I noticed that there's another version that says "rebassed", which I've just tried at low level and it's quite ridiculous here (too much bass). Makes me wonder what DSP would do! Nice track Brian (Rebassed tracks are often crap on a decent system and sound out of whack), system looks grand well done. Have a little more to do on a project here than heading toward Hobart, will PM you at some point to see if you are about. Love the look of the set up and if it sounds better than it was last time would be nice. Happy New Year (better than that last one) What's next Mate ? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Upfront said: 4 hours ago, BioBrian said: Yeah Linc, let's be quick, before I definitely lose this game of "who's got the biggest"! Ha! Don't feel inadequate Brian. My project is the smallest! Any project is a good one Linc size doesn't matter, the "do" part matters, then sometimes the re do .....but hey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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