Garrard 401 Owners & Discussion Thread

[12ax7]

6 hours ago, andyr said:

 

You normally don't! 

 

The Decca should be used into the 'MM' input - which will give it a loading (unless your phono stage is very strange!) of 47K.  If you want to lower that to 33K (as per the review I read on "Enjoy The Music") or 22k then you need to:

1. buy some RCA 'T' connectors (which allow 2 RCA inputs with 1 RCA output).
2. put the single output into your phono RCA sockets.
3. for each T connector, plug: a. your phono cable and b. a load plug into the RCA inputs.  The load plug acts in parallel with the 47K of your MM input.
4. Values are: for 33K overall, use a 120K resistor in the load plug; for 22K (actually 23K5), use a 47K resistor.

 

Regards,

Andy

Read my post from yesterday. I have already addressed this issue. 

 

RCA T connectors generally degrade the sound considerably - been there, done that.

I suggested @Full Range solder the additional load resistors at the cartridge end. I have set up at least a dozen Deccas over the years, mostly Garrott modified Golds plus a Maroon and a Blue and got consistent results with 22k in a variety of turntables/arms/systems.

 

 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, 12ax7 said:

RCA T connectors generally degrade the sound considerably - been there, done that.

 

Sure they do - that's why I build my 'Muse' phono stages with parallel input RCAs on each channel:

• one for the phono cable
• one for an 'R-loaded' plug
• one for a 'C-loaded' plug (for an MM phono stage).

1 hour ago, 12ax7 said:

I suggested @Full Range solder the additional load resistors at the cartridge end. I have set up at least a dozen Deccas over the years, mostly Garrott modified Golds plus a Maroon and a Blue and got consistent results with 22k in a variety of turntables/arms/systems.

 

I agree that replacing the default 47K load reses with 22K is probably the ideal situation - given the OP's phono stage doesn't offer parallel RCAs for load plugs.  But the OP said he doesn't want to mess with the insides of his preamp.

 

Also, I would suggest you used 22K because that is a standard value ... did you ever try using 2x 47K reses in parallel, to deliver 23K5?

 

Andy

 

[Willco]

John may have worked on a design for Nakamichi but not sure what model it was being installed in or used for ?

 

Most of the info I got a few years ago and not easy to find again 

On a search performed now - Most of the same info is on CA5 preamps for sale 

E.G. — https://www.audiogon.com/listings/phono-rarely-seen-nakamichi-ca-5-preamp-with-john-curl-designed-phono-stage-shares-heritage-w-2013-08-18-preamplifiers-60091-wilmette-il

 

 

 

 

Morning again FR,

Well this does seem interesting--From John's reply just now--

seems some skullduggery indeed on the part of Nakamichi--this would not be the first instance Johns been used in this way.

Rather poor form if i may say so.

 

W

 

" I have never worked with Nakamichi ever.  This preamp is below my design standards in any case.  They just used my name along with Nelson Pass for 'credibility'."

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Willco

[Full Range]

58 minutes ago, Willco said:

Morning again FR,

Well this does seem interesting--From John's reply just now--

seems some skullduggery indeed on the part of Nakamichi--this would not be the first instance Johns been used in this way.

Rather poor form if i may say so.

 

W

 

" I have never worked with Nakamichi ever.  This preamp is below my design standards in any case.  They just used my name along with Nelson Pass for 'credibility'."

 

You can’t get any better information than from the man himself 

Thank you for the detective work and John for the time & clearing that up ?

 

Having said that - the information I got was internet based - not Nakamichi based and you know that if something that sounds plausible people run with it ?

 

Anyhow these posts will counter that claim 

 

 

 

 

 

[Willco]

No worries FR--I'm sure the Phono is fine and to your liking 

 

Thats all that matters in this game

 

Good Listening

 

Willco

 

I have John's Email replies if you ever wish to quote him on any further conversations /etc -happy to forward--Best W

Edited September 20, 2017 by Willco

[Full Range]

48 minutes ago, Willco said:

No worries FR--I'm sure the Phono is fine and to your liking 

 

Thats all that matters in this game

 

Good Listening

 

Willco

 

I have John's Email replies if you ever wish to quote him on any further conversations /etc -happy to forward--Best W

 

I wonder if he has a few phono’s laying about the workshop that need someone to test them ? 

 

I have been looking for a reference phono MM/MC as a. kit that’s actually proven & not just all advertising jargon 

 

Any advise 

Is that Muse available in kit form ? 

 

 

[Willco]

Ha!--Knowing JC as I do--he'd keep any units well under care--he's been ripped off a few times over the years--

 

Hmm-- Kit forms of Phono--isn't that Catman's thing here--have you asked him?--sorry I cannot help much there

 

Muse?-do you mean the Kevin Halverson ex Muse units--or something else?

 

As far as I know KH's products were never in  Kit form.

 

As for Building ones own RIAA stage --the best is the Trinidad Connection Schematic from Walter Yip and Lionel Seemungal--should be able to pick it up on Google /etc

 

I've owned this-- a passive unit but oh so good--still would beat the socks off many modern stages.

 

Good luck,

 

Willco

[Full Range]

32 minutes ago, Willco said:

As for Building ones own RIAA stage --the best is the Trinidad Connection Schematic from Walter Yip and Lionel Seemungal--should be able to pick it up on Google /etc

You would think it was easy to find - but alas it’s harder than finding a needle in a haystack 

Cant even find a photo let alone a schematic 

I did however find a few holiday destinations ?

 

33 minutes ago, Willco said:

Muse?-do you mean the Kevin Halverson ex Muse units--or something else?

 

The one that @andyr uses 

 

 

 

 

[andyr]

20 minutes ago, Full Range said:

The one that @andyr uses 

 

 

The one that I make. 

 

I have some suggestions - which I'll put in the PM thread we have started, Paul.

 

Andy

 

[Willco]

Oh--There used to be mentions and I have seen the Seemungal drawings/etc--but well in the past when the Net was in its infancy--maybe the powers that be think it's old hat now

 

--I know fellow that built my version--I'll see if I can contact him and ask--

 

If he's still alive?

 

Ah I see Andy has chimed in with his help--good--guess I was a tad Be Mused

 

W

 

This a Photo I took of my one--sep Power supply

 

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Willco

[12ax7]

13 hours ago, andyr said:

I agree that replacing the default 47K load reses with 22K is probably the ideal situation - given the OP's phono stage doesn't offer parallel RCAs for load plugs.  But the OP said he doesn't want to mess with the insides of his preamp.

 

Also, I would suggest you used 22K because that is a standard value ... did you ever try using 2x 47K reses in parallel, to deliver 23K5?

 

Andy

Please go back and read my original post as suggested.

 

Because he does not want to mess with his preamp I suggested in my original post paralleling up 47k by soldering a additional load resistors at the cartridge end.

 

Have I tried 2 47k resistors in parallel - yes.

Did I tried paralleling up 39k & 47k as suggested in my original post  - yes.

Have I tried loading Deccas at 33k - yes

Have I heard Deccas loaded at 47k - yes

Have I done an AB between locating the loading resistors on a Decca at the cartridge vs at the phono end - yes - and there is a subtle difference.

Have I experimented with different brands of resistors - yes - I use primarily nude bulk foil Vishays for loading cartridges in preference to Resista ( 80's ) - ok, Holco ( marginally less grainy than Resista ) , Shinko & Kiwame  ( nice and musical but not neutral ). Using nude bulk foil Vishays is like opening the garage door - compared to the others.

And finally have I used both T RCA's and paralleled RCA inputs for loading - yes - both degrade the sound - add noise. FYI for your phono build if you want changeable loading without soldering the best system I've used are SIP sockets - like this

SIPs socket.pdf

   

 

 

 

[12ax7]

@Willco

14 minutes ago, Willco said:

Oh--There used to be mentions and I have seen the Seemungal drawings/etc--but well in the past when the Net was in its infancy--maybe the powers that be think it's old hat now

 

--I know fellow that built my version--I'll see if I can contact him and ask--

 

If he's still alive?

 

Ah I see Andy has chimed in with his help--good--guess I was a tad Be Mused

 

W

 

This a Photo I took of my one--sep Power supply

 

 

I owned the same preamp as in your photo years ago based on the Seemungel circuit - built here in NZ by Anawhata Audio. The timber cases in your picture are NZ Rewarewa. It was ok at best, very low gain and more suited for tube power amps with sensitive input. 

[Willco]

23 minutes ago, 12ax7 said:

@Willco

I owned the same preamp as in your photo years ago based on the Seemungel circuit - built here in NZ by Anawhata Audio. The timber cases in your picture are NZ Rewarewa. It was ok at best, very low gain and more suited for tube power amps with sensitive input. 

Ok--Really ?

 

I took my Audio Research  SP3A to Ian's and we compared it on identical LP's  through his BC-1's( Rondstadt/etc) and it smoked the 3A--which was no Slouch at the time.

 

Yes low on gain but I liked the depth and placement--can't think of the soundstage width  but it was magic on vocals.

 

I also heard another version  demonstrated  by Ike Isiensen at Audio Dimensions in San Diego to the local Audio Society and I garnered the same reponse as above. 

 

I still rate it anyway.

 

 

Incidentally I used the Decca loaded as you deem at the cartridge --soldering though not for the faint hearted I'm sure you'd agree.

 

When I worked with John Iverson at Electro Research all our Carts were loaded at the Pins as well--so I agree with your thinking there

 

Trust FR will heed your wise words of experience

 

Willco

 

: May have been BC-3's

Edited September 21, 2017 by Willco

[Full Range]

I have no issues with modifying my current phono / at the cartridge as long as I have a point to point picture guide to follow 

I’m pretty good with a soldering iron - but I am a mechanical engineer not an electrical engineer - So some terms are foreign to me 

 

However I also don’t mind having a second phono unit that is equal or better than my current unit - be it as a kit or other option 

 

And thank you all for the helping hand ? 

 

[Full Range]

Speaking about mechanical things 

I have just completed a silencer muffler for the air hose that feeds the Terminator air bearing arm 

Muffler / Silencer is made with a small bottle 

The wadding is a combo of 3 types of sound deadening material 

 

Simple to do and it works a treat 

Now I am sitting at 97% reduced noise 

 

One more modification is in the works if needed 

Put a Hebel lip around the Lid section so it can be lined in the cavity 

 

 

[12ax7]

@Willco

To be fair I replaced the Anawhata with a Marantz 7 tube pre, then a Jadis and finally back to the Marantz 7.

I have two Marantz 7's - one modded, the other original. Not hard to smoke an ARC - I have a wonderful photo from mid 80's CES show I took that will make you laugh - they had a "No Smoking" sign on top of their rack of gear - they did not seem aware of the irony.  

[Willco]

11 minutes ago, 12ax7 said:

@Willco

To be fair I replaced the Anawhata with a Marantz 7 tube pre, then a Jadis and finally back to the Marantz 7.

I have two Marantz 7's - one modded, the other original. Not hard to smoke an ARC - I have a wonderful photo from mid 80's CES show I took that will make you laugh - they had a "No Smoking" sign on top of their rack of gear - they did not seem aware of the irony.  

Ah yes the venerable Marantz 7--I'd agree somewhat with the ARC Phonos--they always appear slightly grainy to me--but you have to admit  at the time late 70s'early eighties

 

we were led to believe the Sp3A was the Mid range king

 

and the JC-2 the bass/treble one

 

owned both--but agree these were the hits of  the publications pre net--Sound Advice/etc and sleepers that surpassed both of them were out there.

 

Good Listening,

 

Willco

[Owen Y]

10 minutes ago, Willco said:

Ah yes the venerable Marantz 7--I'd agree somewhat with the ARC Phonos--they always appear slightly grainy to me--but you have to admit  at the time late 70s'early eighties

 

Yup I'd agree, overly complex PSUs + transistor-regulation => audible SS graininess.

 

(The later SP6s & the SP8 MkI, arguably the best of the bunch.)

 

Cheers, Owen

http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

[mloutfie]

On 04/05/2015 at 3:16 PM, Full Range said:

Tone arm outrigger fitted - what I used is two skeleton frames that are used in remote cars ( RC )

 

 

@Full Range Where can I buy these chassis? Or what are they called?

[Full Range]

1 hour ago, mloutfie said:

@Full Range Where can I buy these chassis? Or what are they called?

 

As models change these may not be available any longer but search for other shapes on eBay 

 

The type I used are 2 frame or chassis rail frame units from a Remote Control dune buggy 

I went into a local shop that sold Remote control cars ect and purchased a few different shapes and chose these as the best suited for my needs 

 

Many shapes and sizes are available to suit your project however for strength you will need 2 

 

I will have a look to see if can find the smaller frame units not used in my project and you can have then ( fingers crossed they did not go into the bin ) 

 

Here is an example from eBay 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F142314778870

 

[mloutfie]

Thanks

[Full Range]

2 minutes ago, mloutfie said:

Thanks

 

My pleasure

 

Did some searching for you and - 

Found almost the same shape and side here on this link 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F310808831873

[mloutfie]

38 minutes ago, Full Range said:

 

My pleasure

 

Did some searching for you and - 

Found almost the same shape and side here on this link 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F310808831873

Thanks I'll try to research the size of that parts

[Spider27]

I recently got Garrard 401 and it was working okay but when I mounted it into new wooden plinth, it stops spinning.

 

I examined a bit and found that rotor disc is touching underneath hence not spinning. When I pull the rotor disc a bit then motor starts spin but stops again as soon as I put my hands off from lifting the rotor disc. 

 

Can anyone enlighten me on this and rectify this issue? My guess is that there must be a spring that keeps lifting silver rotor disc came off or rotor disc needs to be repositioned somehow?

 

Any help would be hugely appreciated. Thank you..

[Telecine]

There is a grub screw that tightens up to the spindle on the rotor collar. I suspect that this is loose, allowing your rotor to slip down.