Vibrato Ultrasonic Record Cleaner

[EV Cali]

Point taken regarding khz. It does have a heater  300w , 0- 80 c. it does not need a transformer like the Vibrato and it is in Australia .

Do you have link for your Sonix Andy.

[andyr]

Point taken regarding khz. It does have a heater  300w , 0- 80 c. it does not need a transformer like the Vibrato and it is in Australia .

Do you have link for your Sonix Andy.

 

Not to hand (at work) - sorry.  Just Google "Sonix IV".  I bought the wider model - the '136'.

 

Andy

 

PS Sonix needs a step down trannie.

Edited July 16, 2015 by andyr

[EV Cali]

Sonix IV

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Sonix-IV-Dental-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-6-4-Qt-w-Timer-Cover-Basket-ST136-/131232694481

[soundfan]

You guys should probably start another thread so this one could stay (mostly) on topic.

Edit:On second thoughts,feel free to discuss anything Ultrasonic Record Cleaners here.

Edited July 17, 2015 by soundfan

[TP1]

Sure, Tasso, but the issue is ... does the 'cloth' on the vacuum slot lips do any damage to the groove?

Also, given that I'll be able to clean 6 LPs simultaneously in my US tank - how am I going to vacuum dry 12 sides? Use my Nitty Gritty, side after side?

What I'm thinking of is that I would remove the spindle containing 6 LPs from the US tank and then put it into another (perspex) box which has some blowers - possibly even simple hairdryers (on their lowest heat setting!).

Regards,

Andy

the "cloth" looks like it is the same soft felt type stuff that is used on regular RCM's so I can't see any damage happening through that . But my sole point of raising the issue was in response to the view that all special purpose Ultrasonic RCMs are seriously expensive ( which is true in this country). Some people may not want to go down the DIY path but I have little doubt you will be able to gain real advantages from the the approach you are taking.

[metal beat]

I've been watching this thread with interest Chris.  Glad to hear that Louis stands behind his products.  I'm now pretty much convinced this is the way to go for me.  I love that you can clean multiple records at the same time.  While my little Record Doctor V does just as good a job as the mega buck ultrasonic cleaners, it is way more time intensive and spare time is not something I have in spades at this stage of my life.

 

Is there anybody else in Sydney (or surrounding areas) interested in buying one of these?  I'm hoping that by combining orders we might be able to save a few bucks on freight.  I do understand that may not be possible even if we do have multiple orders - I just figure it doesn't hurt to ask.  Chris, would you be willing to assist with the selection of best parts and making introductions to Louis, etc?

 

 

Don't be too quick to sell/throw your vacuum RCM out.     the US cleaners are wonderful, however for noisy lp's using the ES and vacuum works better than just one of either in reducing that noise.

 

Especially POS coloured vinyl 

 

cheers

[PKay]

Sure, Tasso, but the issue is ... does the 'cloth' on the vacuum slot lips do any damage to the groove?

 

Also, given that I'll be able to clean 6 LPs simultaneously in my US tank - how am I going to vacuum dry 12 sides?  Use my Nitty Gritty, side after side?

 

What I'm thinking of is that I would remove the spindle containing 6 LPs from the US tank and then put it into another (perspex) box which has some blowers - possibly even simple hairdryers (on their lowest heat setting!).

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

This guy has a great setup for cleaning and then drying at the end.

 

[andyr]

This guy has a great setup for cleaning and then drying at the end.

 

 

WOW!  His drying is very ingenious.  Thanks Nap! 

 

Andy

[Dr Good Vibe]

Very nice to see that he changes the fluid would like to see a rinse.

[djb]

Lol we are a hopeless set of obsessed fanatics

From >sink wash > non automatic RCM (KAB EV-1) > Okki Nokki > US. Single LP> US multiple LP> Rinse > dry on - auto old RCM {note not sold to defray costs}> multiple hair dryers plugged into holes in a Perspex case.

Someone needs to lay out all these "components end to end for a photo shoot of the size of the damn thing

[EV Cali]

This guy has a great setup for cleaning and then drying at the end.

 

Interesting video. Watched it all the way through. Not sure who needs to get out a bit more, me or Terry.

[jeromelang]

I recently had a bunch of records cleaned on a KL Audio machine.

They don't sound any cleaner compared to just spraying water in a spinner.

In fact they sounded dulled and closed in.

So I put them into the spinner and sprayed some tap water to wake them up, and then, with the surface still wet, I added some distilled drinking water to condition their sound and then spinned dried.

Then they sound great again.

Try experimenting with combination of tap water and distilled water.....

[andyr]

You seem to like speaking in riddles, jl - rather than explaining clearly the whys and wherefores.

 

I recently had a bunch of records cleaned on a KL Audio machine.
They don't sound any cleaner compared to just spraying water in a spinner.
In fact they sounded dulled and closed in.

 

So you had listened to these LPs before the clean in the KLA - and they sounded fine?  Then (after the KLA clean) they sounded 'dulled and closed in'?

 

Had you ever cleaned those LPs before they went into the KLA machine?

 

So I put them into the spinner and sprayed some tap water to wake them up, and then, with the surface still wet, I added some distilled drinking water to condition their sound

 

What is "distilled drinking water"?

 

I ask because, AIUI, it is not good to drink distilled water - the distilling process removes the minerals that are of benefit to the human body.

 

Try experimenting with combination of tap water and distilled water.....

 

Can't see the point as tap water contains minerals that we don't want deposited in the groove (as they will be unless they are vacuumed out when wet ... and I believe you don't agree with vacuuming).

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

[metal beat]

I recently had a bunch of records cleaned on a KL Audio machine.

They don't sound any cleaner compared to just spraying water in a spinner.

In fact they sounded dulled and closed in.

So I put them into the spinner and sprayed some tap water to wake them up, and then, with the surface still wet, I added some distilled drinking water to condition their sound and then spinned dried.

Then they sound great again.

Try experimenting with combination of tap water and distilled water.....

 

 

Your lp's played on your laser turntable sounded closed in after using distilled water in the KLA.  The ultrasonics of the KLA or the distilled water used?  Then the ultrasonic cleaning was reversed by putting tap water and some more distilled water in a spinner?

 

Like Andy, I am somewhat confused with what you are trying to explain.

Edited July 19, 2015 by metal beat

[Tweaky]

I'm wondering if repeated cleaning with a ultrasonic cleaner might advance the leeching of a records polymers prematurely, causing it get brittle, and thus causing more than usual wear with each playing.

And that's without using any additives to the water bath.

It's not something that I imagine that would be immediately noticeable after just one or two runs through the system, but maybe after 5 or 6 it might, I suppose it would depend on the quality of the vinyl and it age, plus how many playings it's already had.

You know the sort of dull look some LP's can get compared to shiny new ones.

 

The reason I got wondering about this is that I use a ultrasonic cleaner for cleaning insect specimens prior to extreme magnification photography, so I'm quite aware of what damage these units can do to none metallic objects put in them for cleaning.

 

Have a look at the aluminium foil test video, this is the recommend test to see if your unit is working properly....... see exactly what these units can do to something delicate in a very short time.

 

Just something to ponder.

[metal beat]

I'm wondering if repeated cleaning with a ultrasonic cleaner might advance the leeching of a records polymers prematurely, causing it get brittle, and thus causing more than usual wear with each playing.

And that's without using any additives to the water bath.

It's not something that I imagine that would be immediately noticeable after just one or two runs through the system, but maybe after 5 or 6 it might, I suppose it would depend on the quality of the vinyl and it age, plus how many playings it's already had.

You know the sort of dull look some LP's can get compared to shiny new ones.

 

The reason I got wondering about this is that I use a ultrasonic cleaner for cleaning insect specimens prior to extreme magnification photography, so I'm quite aware of what damage these units can do to none metallic objects put in them for cleaning.

 

Have a look at the aluminium foil test video, this is the recommend test to see if your unit is working properly....... see exactly what these units can do to something delicate in a very short time.

 

Just something to ponder.

 

 

From the KLA site. Photos etc on the web site    http://klaudio.com/is-200w-safe-for-my-vinyl

 

 

Klaudio's KD-CLN-LP200 has significantly more cleaning power than other commercially available ultrasonic units. Our design applies a full 200W to the vinyl without causing any disc deterioration. This is only possible through our exclusive, patent-pending technology. This high amount of power would normally degrade the vinyl, but Klaudio has overcome this limitation after several years of R&D. (See microscope images of a cleaned disc.)

To demonstrate the safe application of Klaudio's cleaning system, a solid, brightly-colored disc can be used. The below blue vinyl disc was cleaned in an extra-hot 40°C (104°F) ambient environment to accelerate wear. The KD-CLN-LP200 cleaner was run for a continuous 9-hour period using a special relay board, which operated the ultrasonic transducers continuously. This prevented the cleaning cycle from ending like the retail model does every 1-5 minutes.

Afterward, it's evident from wiping out the reservoir that only dirt was removed. There are no vinyl particles or blue tint, which would indicate debris originating from the disc itself.

Edited July 19, 2015 by metal beat

[TP1]

The potential to do damage depends upon both the power and the frequency of ultrasonic sound waves. Klaudio have found a frequency that is safe to use on vinyl. It doesn't mean all 200w units will be the same

[andyr]

I'm wondering if repeated cleaning with a ultrasonic cleaner might advance the leeching of a records polymers prematurely, causing it get brittle, and thus causing more than usual wear with each playing.

And that's without using any additives to the water bath.

It's not something that I imagine that would be immediately noticeable after just one or two runs through the system, but maybe after 5 or 6 it might, I suppose it would depend on the quality of the vinyl and it age, plus how many playings it's already had.

You know the sort of dull look some LP's can get compared to shiny new ones.

 

The reason I got wondering about this is that I use a ultrasonic cleaner for cleaning insect specimens prior to extreme magnification photography, so I'm quite aware of what damage these units can do to none metallic objects put in them for cleaning.

 

Just something to ponder.

 

Mmmm ... in my world, you clean an LP once, before you play it.  OK, maybe twice, if it's a used LP and particularly dirty.  But then you probably never US-clean it again (providing you use a CF brush before and after each play).

 

So, nothing to ponder ... as long as you are:

a.  using a 60/80KHz machine, and

b.  spacing LPs at least 25mm apart, if you have a multiple-LP tank.

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

Edited July 19, 2015 by andyr

[jeromelang]

Huh? What's there to riddle?

I tried the KL at home.

Washed a bunch of records first using the spinner (spray tap water/ distilled drinking water) and then spun dried.

Play those records on my ELP.

Then washed those records again using the KL Audio machine.

Then played on my ELP.

No differences in surface noise condition.

But soundstaging was very much smaller. Lethargic. Overall tonality is dulled.

I then rewashed those record again on the spinner.

Then played on the ELP.

Soundstaging opens again.

The dynamism that I remember was back.

I next used the distilled water that was supplied with the KL Audio machine to wash the records in the spinner.

Then played on the ELP.

SOUNDSTAGING BECAME SMALLER AND SOUND BECAME DULLED AGAIN.

I then sprayed the records in the spinner with tap water and added a dash of the same distilled water used in the KLA machine.

The soundstaging opened up.

But not as wide or as tall as from using the combination of the distilled drinking water over tap water.

I've tried several brands of distilled drinking water bought from various super markets.

I don't drink them.

They were solely used for conditioning the records.

Finally settled on one particular brand, which seem not to dull the sound of the records as much as the other brands.

I use it only as a "conditioner" after the records have been sprayed with tap water on the spinner.

All distilled drinking water and the (industrial) distilled water that I've tried so far seem to dull the sound of records, and also reducing soundstaging spaciousness if used on their own on the spinner.

I found it necessary to spray tap water over the records first, then add distilled water (when the record surface is still not completely dried)

This combination gives me the best sonic results.

I have not tried mixing tap water and distilled water first in a bottle and then spraying it over the records.

I simply use tap water first, and then spray distilled water next.

If there's a problem with tap water, the ELP will surely let me know.....

It reads everything, right?

I had the KLA unit for a whole month, and had plenty of time washing, and listening....

I did not use any tap water in the KLA, as it was a borrowed unit.

Edited July 19, 2015 by jeromelang

[metal beat]

Thanks Jerome.  

 

Results used in a Laser turntable don't seem to match those who use normal turntables with physical stylus and physical play on the vinyl.

 

BTW, what is the spinner?  

[Tweaky]

Mmmm ... in my world, you clean an LP once, before you play it.  OK, maybe twice, if it's a used LP and particularly dirty.  But then you probably never US-clean it again (providing you use a CF brush before and after each play).

 

So, nothing to ponder ... as long as you are:

a.  using a 60/80KHz machine, and

b.  spacing LPs at least 25mm apart, if you have a multiple-LP tank.

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

 

 

Andy

 

If you only ever use ultrasonic cleaning twice on a LP, for short periods like you have been, then I suppose there will be no problem damaging the LP's, although for the amount you have outlayed for the equipment, it would be interesting to see what you work out what it cost for each LP you own to be only cleaned twice.

I suppose it's still less than buying a Keith Monks or Loricraft vacuum unit.

 

As regards to Klaudio's photographic evidence of it's ultrasonic cleaner doing no damage to a record, well all it shows is clean grooves after a cleaning cycle, which is what you would hopefully expect.

 

The fact that it shows no residue from the water tank, even after going through a very extended cycle, and at half the melting point of vinyl of 40C doesn't really surprise me, that's not what was concerning me.

 

My concern was on the possible effect ultrasonic cleaning would have on the vinyl, that would only show up after you started playing them again.

I've yet to see any photographic evidence of that not happening.

 

The only way you could do that would be to get two copies of the same album [transparent coloured for ease of photographing under polarized light - from what I gather I'm seeing as Klaudio's process at the link above ], find the exact cue point on each record of a certain passage of one track, and mark it on the inside label on both.

Play the track at least twice on each record, as it would be a more real world scenario to clean a used LP, rather than a pristine one.

Then run one of the LP's though the ultrasonic cleaning cycle,play the marked track of that LP several times, then run it through the cleaning cycle again, play the track several more times, then put under the microscope and take your photos.

You then take your other  control copy of the LP and play the same track the equivalent amount of times, put it under the microscope and photograph that...compare the two to spot any differences.

 

At least it might show if anything is going on, damage wise, with ultrasonic cleaning of LP's, which currently there is no evidence that I have seen to prove either way.

 

I'm not bagging the equipment or the process, for all I know it could be harmless and work as advertised.....but I do have my nagging doubts.

[andyr]

If you only ever use ultrasonic cleaning twice on a LP, for short periods like you have been, then I suppose there will be no problem damaging the LP's, although for the amount you have outlayed for the equipment, it would be interesting to see what you work out what it cost for each LP you own to be only cleaned twice.

I suppose it's still less than buying a Keith Monks or Loricraft vacuum unit.

 

As regards to Klaudio's photographic evidence of it's ultrasonic cleaner doing no damage to a record, well all it shows is clean grooves after a cleaning cycle, which is what you would hopefully expect.

 

The fact that it shows no residue from the water tank, even after going through a very extended cycle, and at half the melting point of vinyl of 40C doesn't really surprise me, that's not what was concerning me.

 

My concern was on the possible effect ultrasonic cleaning would have on the vinyl, that would only show up after you started playing them again.

I've yet to see any photographic evidence of that not happening.

 

The only way you could do that would be to get two copies of the same album [transparent coloured for ease of photographing under polarized light - from what I gather I'm seeing as Klaudio's process at the link above ], find the exact cue point on each record of a certain passage of one track, and mark it on the inside label on both.

Play the track at least twice on each record, as it would be a more real world scenario to clean a used LP, rather than a pristine one.

Then run one of the LP's though the ultrasonic cleaning cycle,play the marked track of that LP several times, then run it through the cleaning cycle again, play the track several more times, then put under the microscope and take your photos.

You then take your other  control copy of the LP and play the same track the equivalent amount of times, put it under the microscope and photograph that...compare the two to spot any differences.

 

At least it might show if anything is going on, damage wise, with ultrasonic cleaning of LP's, which currently there is no evidence that I have seen to prove either way.

 

I'm not bagging the equipment or the process, for all I know it could be harmless and work as advertised.....but I do have my nagging doubts.

 

Sure, most people have doubts about new technology.   It was only after they'd been out for some time that the theory surfaced, that the size of the bubbles produced by 40KHz vibrators could be large enough to cause damage to the groove.  And that if you clean multiple LPs in the one tank, you need to space them apart quite a lot.  60KHz machines reduce this effect ... and 80KHz machines even more so.

 

And regards damage for the US cleaning process, I have read a report by one notable in the US hifi industry (sorry, forget who), who maintains that he heard a difference (a loss of HFs) on one particular track of an LP he knew well (having played it many times as a demo track during hifi shows) after a clean with a US machine.  Then again, jeromelang, here, says that the sound is compromised once you pass an LP through a normal wet/vac RCM (by the contact with the felt strips/brush which surround the vacuum slot/wand) - so we appear to be stuffed however we clean them!   

 

 

Andy

[Tweaky]

I'll have a look at the processes necessary to take photos of a records groove like the ones posted at Kaudio's site, I want to see what equipment is needed to get meaningful results.

A LOT depends on how laborious a task it might be [i'm not one for long projects], I might have a crack at finding out if any damage is visible using the test method I outlined previously above.

 

I think I still have a lone transparent green 7" single somewhere, I might have a test run using my ultrasonic cleaner and do some before and after testing / photography but it would show those who think they could use any ultrasonic for this purpose,any damage the might expect to their LP's

 

If any damage is visible, well then it might be worth doing the test mentioned above with LP's that have been run through Kaudio's US cleaner.

 

Earlier this year, while searching Ebay for used microscope objectives to use for a photographic process, I came across a demolition company selling a Olympus Vanox research microscope with all attachments they had found at the old Shell oil refinery in Sydney.

After some quick consultations with people in the UK & USA who know a lot more than me about this equipment, I snapped it up at the buy it now price, so it's quite possible that I already own the equipment needed to do this sort of test.

 

[jeromelang]

Thanks Jerome.

Results used in a Laser turntable don't seem to match those who use normal turntables with physical stylus and physical play on the vinyl.

BTW, what is the spinner?

The results of different water over vinyl surfaces are the same regardless of using needle or laser playback.

Those passing thru Singapore can pay a visit to the House of Turntables, who sells all project turntables.

They recently acquire the same spinner I use.

And after washing and drying records as per my recommendations (meaning no sucking, no rubbing, just spraying and spinning), the results were/are exactly what's I've experienced under the laser on the ELP.

Look for Haz or Rafael

Ask them to show you results with just tap water, with just distilled drinking water(the brand is Life, sold in their local NTUC supermarkets) or the combination of tap water and distilled drinking water.

One thing to remember:

With a needle playback system, never play the same portion again on the vinyl surface after each wash/dry

Playing the same portion a second time will always gives you different sound regardless if any changes has been done.

That's because the first time the needle had coursed through the grooves, the walls would have been deformed.

The second time will always sound different.

The advantage of the ELP is non contact playing.

So, what I would like to stress is - those people using ultrasonic cleaning machines - try experimenting with different water combination, instead of just distilled water only.

And please, those who are going the DIY route, do not vacuum or wipe dry your records.

Invest in a blower machine too to complement your contactless ultrasonic cleaners.

Cheers.

Edited July 20, 2015 by jeromelang

[jeromelang]

And regards damage for the US cleaning process, I have read a report by one notable in the US hifi industry (sorry, forget who), who maintains that he heard a difference (a loss of HFs) on one particular track of an LP he knew well (having played it many times as a demo track during hifi shows) after a clean with a US machine. Then again, jeromelang, here, says that the sound is compromised once you pass an LP through a normal wet/vac RCM (by the contact with the felt strips/brush which surround the vacuum slot/wand) - so we appear to be stuffed however we clean them!

Andy

I sincerely believe users may alleviate the reported loss of HF after a clean through the KL Audio machine by tempering the distilled water with tap water.

Of course I'm putting my head on the chopping board here as characteristics of tap water are all over the map in various countries.

But it is worth a try.

Edited July 20, 2015 by jeromelang