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On 01/04/2019 at 3:33 PM, betty boop said:

if people wondering how we are doing with EVs.... the graph below is pretty telling... yes australia is way behind at EVs being a tiny 0.2%.... . but jeepers if we are that behind just look at how p poor pathetic take up is in rest of the world ? 

 

Norway iceland and sweden are well ahead... but the rest ? pathetic indeed... even the us which I note they removed california as it is a special case... but us is what 2.1 % ??? EU 2.5 % ?? japan 2.1 % ??? 

...

On 01/04/2019 at 3:33 PM, betty boop said:

Screen Shot 2019-04-01 at 4.26.42 pm.png

 

7.8% strikes me as pretty amazing in California, seeing as how EVs are generally significantly more expensive than ICE equivalents.

 

Given that we are at such a low base in Australia, we could see takeup increasing 10-fold and so be at 3% rather than our current 0.3% [latest figure I think] in a short space of time, once prices became competitive. That could rightly be called an explosion, though we'd still be behind what California achieved in 2018.

 

On top of all the other drivers for development of high energy density batteries an important driver these days is storage of photovoltaic electricity. The rewards for developing cheaper mass chemical storage of electricity are gigantic.  The goal of economic mass energy storage for EVs, domestic solar panels, and for other purposes, has never been closer to being achieved.

 

I appreciate that because the question of "when prices become competitive" for EVs has been around for such a long time (decades), that there is a natural tendency to be pessimistic.

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41 minutes ago, betty boop said:

actually no thats not true. we have seen the EV take up around the world. been posted here by me. take up around the world is actually pretty p!ss poor as happens, 

 

Prove it. 

 

Suggesting that EVs are a small fraction of vehicle sales doesn't mean take up is good or bad. Relative to supply it's doing pretty well. Bar a few MY2012 Nissan Leafs in Australia there's no one in the EV business of any significance globally with a stock of vehicles they can't move. 

 

Take up of luxury sedans must be pretty piss poor by your benchmark also, and yet no one making them is complaining. 

 

44 minutes ago, betty boop said:

and no there are no magic puddings. it wont suddenly boom tomorrow.

 

So?

 

44 minutes ago, betty boop said:

because we neither have the cars to drive take up, the affordability of them nor spare cash to buy or infrastructure. 

 

 

Doubling back on yourself there - unless you need a boom uptake, EV growth doesn't need a quantum leap in affordability or additional infrastructure.

 

Plenty of people with homes have reticulated power enough to drive EV uptake to suit their range needs. It's not everyone - but we're not talking a boom here - though it's more than significant enough a percentage of the population to sustain uptake at a higher rate than what we're seeing now.

 

Now why don't we have the cars?

 

44 minutes ago, betty boop said:

as far as government policy am all for carrot rather than moronic stick which is based on CO2 if we were honest about where our power comes from. 

 

We'll get back to 'where are the cars' and deal with morons first, then. 

 

There is no other sector that seriously generates or consumes power in the country that does not have CO2 based incentivisation. None. With good reason. CO2 costs money. Avoiding it saves money. It's really not hard. 

 

'Our power' doesn't always come from CO2 intensive sources either. It's getting better and in most states you're better off with an EV over life of vehicle. We neither bake policy without considering future trajectories - there's plenty already in place to judge being 'honest about where our power comes from' in a CO2 sense that more than justifies electrification. 

 

Go on, run the numbers. 

 

(I remember a post somewhere about playing ball and not the man).

 

51 minutes ago, betty boop said:

carrot by all means but keep in mind the country spoke just recently and while we all might believe in magic puddings the cash has to come from some place. and it aint going to be taxes. perhaps there is a mis understanding of where things are right now. spending is at an all time low. wages growth at a stand still. been a long time since folks saw a wage rise. people have stopped spending on major things. we are facing about everything that resembles a recession. unemployment is at all time high infact higher than other countries for first time even got the concern of RBA thats looking whats left in our all time low interest to rate to see what can do to drive.

 

why ? the very fact you are asking for LCT to be removed is missing the elephant in the room that the reason LCT is being charged on EVs are that they are far too expensive !!! .... far and above what common folk can ever afford. We need more affordable EVs ... that is what will cause a boom. not government taking a few percents off price of uber luxury priced cars. 

 

So we don't have cars because they cost money - duh - and because we have no way of making them cheaper - which you keep skipping over, and which happens in every market where EV sales continue to grow. We used to have ways of making the cars we made here cheaper and even that dried up relative to global levels. 

 

The incentives to increase access to EVs - or any technology, from EVs, PHEVs, low-sulphur fuel, FCVs, whatever - are primarily there to increase access, to drive volume and research into technology development, and to drive further price reduction which then increases access again. This continues to the point the market is self-sustaining. 

 

You're arguing for Australia to get a free ride here. Which is BS. As we've witnessed in pretty much any other vehicle technology we've invested in as a taxed public, good investment nets just rewards and growth. Why should EVs be any different?

 

You're not wrong about removing the LCT, though it doesn't have to be that harsh. There are many markets where EV uptake in incentivised below an affordability price point. It's led to some interesting models - cars with short range or limited feature sets, for argument's sake - though it's possible to drive uptake without behind black or white about the merits of a given policy approach. 

 

CO2 policy doesn't need to tax anyone either. If a vehicle manufacturer had to meet a CO2 target or pay penalties or be 'supercredited' for ZEVs, guess what happens generally:

  • They take a haircut on getting ZEVs to market
  • Prices don't go up at the low end of the market because that'd seriously impact profit
  • Prices tend to increase modestly at the top/luxury end of the market... which is less price sensitive generally regardless

 

This has worked in oooooo all of the EU and North America. Just fine. No taxes, just a slight margin haircut for vehicle sales and some price redistribution at the top end.

 

On the other hand if there's no... what was that word you used - moronic? - approach to incentivise low/no CO2 options to market, then the following happens:

  • They come in as fringe models only with weak market outlook given low market access,
  • Homologation costs - broadly fixed - are spread over a small number of vehicles, and
  • Their price goes up even further, leading to the same vehicles costing a ton in Australia relative to what they do overseas...
  • ...whilst fleet CO2 decreases at a rate consistent with hand-me-down technology only and out of step with the rest of the world (in short, we get crappier tech for our money)

 

If you want to just wait for the tech to get cheaper to a point of mass affordability with zero investment in increasing access - whether through policy or otherwise - you're going to be waiting a long while. And, if commentary is anything to go by, still posting here about how piss poor our state of affairs might be.

 

1 hour ago, betty boop said:

by all means ... have been saying this for ages... we need the infrastructure ... but it still wont happen tomorrow.....money got to come from some place as well. we arent uk europe or US. we are a big brown land and the size of it and way populations are displaced is missed by most. the masses of population in the citys could be easily picked up with affordable city cars... but we dont have them as yet. build it and they will come both the cars and the infrastructure...

 

We have infrastructure. If you look outside and see poles and wires, you're staring at the infrastructure. It'd need a few tweaks if every car went electric tomorrow, just as it would if every home got off gas tomorrow and every industrial process electrified tomorrow... just the transport industry penalty for electrification is a lot, lot less than residential and commercial needs. 

 

Yes, not everyone's got a garage enough to knock in an EVSE of their own. Some need more range anyway. And that's not everyone. Far from everyone, actually, and there's more than enough people left to justify getting the EV party started. You're great at critiquing what we don't have, though criticism is cheap - there's enough that we do have that makes sense enough to start on increasing access. 

 

If you want DC fast networks well guess what... they're getting built. Public and private. It's happening right now. 

 

1 hour ago, betty boop said:

it also just requires makers actually producing them ? where is elons peoples car ? you know the affordable one ? he couldn't do it clearly... so will take time... perhaps its VW peoples car who knows ... we will know in time. having worked in the industry I for one know just how long these things take. it wont be tomorrow.,

 

You're not the only one having worked in the industry at length here, so hopefully you'll allow a few others to contribute valid opinion.

 

Tesla's latest is affordable for many. And for many less in our country. Why's that so? Hint: it's not the car.

 

Anyone running a gauntlet of arguing that range isn't long enough, infrastructure isn't here enough and the cars aren't cheap enough is looking for a unicorn that doesn't exist without a quantum leap in technology. It may come - solid state batteries are promising, for one - and even then, it'll need incentive and help to come to market... which you're adamant we shouldn't provide in any way, shape or form. 

 

Easy being a wholesale critic - they'll always be right - won't get the cars though. 

 

Questions around what the right and fair things to do to get the cars going are (more than) fair game. 

 

1 hour ago, betty boop said:

you cant also keep making the point it relies on govermnments ? governments have their own priorities and as far as transport goes. I for one am all behind their focus which is that of public transport. you want to do something on a mass scale  to reduce carbon footprint when comes to transport ... public transport is where its at. and its happening. but again that takes time ... wont be tomorrow... mean time you cant be expecting them to be subsidising personal transport... we had a battle enough with them subsiding the car makers we had here let alone for us to be expecting them to be subsidising ones making cars in foreign lands so we can afford. I would suggest their priority will always be that of public transport over private transport.

 

Could just as easily apply your doomsday arguments to electrification of road-going mass public transport. Or road freight, which is comparable to public transport for carbon footprint here.  

 

It's easy to sit back and say it's too hard. 

 

You keep insisting it's about subsidising the car manufacturers. Not necessarily so, and I'd happily vote for a government that worked to increase access to low CO2 transport whilst keeping investments within the country. I'm sure many would too. 

 

But none of that's helped with all-or-nothing arguments that paint any change to the status quo as socialist, subsidy or favouring the rich. Totally fair to point out that these are things to be avoided, that change needs to be as fair and reasoned as possible. 

 

But wholesale criticism? Moronic stick, that one.

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16 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

7.8% strikes me as pretty amazing in California, seeing as how EVs are generally significantly more expensive than ICE equivalents.

keep in mind how long california been going for it... and look at the stupidity it generated like the fiat 500e that fiat HAD to produce no matter they were loosing hand over fiat many times over what car being sold for... and all that for all over 7.8% ? having lived in california no offence ... Id rather they put the money and effort into public transport which is near on non existent ! 

 

16 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Given that we are at such a low base in Australia, we could see takeup increasing 10-fold and so be at 3% rather than our current 0.3% [latest figure I think] in a short space of time, once prices became competitive. That could rightly be called an explosion, though we'd still be behind what California achieved in 2018.

check where eu/us canada & japan are at. probably more likely indications where could aspire too.. in very short term. but it would be far from a boom... with boom i would suggest we are talking mass take up. not a measly few percentage of market. 

 

16 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

On top of all the other drivers for development of high energy density batteries an important driver these days is storage of photovoltaic electricity. The rewards for developing cheaper mass chemical storage of electricity are gigantic.  The goal of economic mass energy storage for EVs, domestic solar panels, and for other purposes, has never been closer to being achieved.

why does it have to be at an individual and domestic level when this can be achieved at a far more economical rate in a large industrial scale. storage is also uneconomical as then you end up dealing with efficiency losses. we have the battery of the nation in anycase both snowy hydro and what is happening in tassie and elons battery in SA that are far better examples if you want storage on mass :)

 

16 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

appreciate that because the question of "when prices become competitive" for EVs has been around for such a long time (decades), that there is a natural tendency to be pessimistic.

very important to respect change... pace of change whats required and in a susptainable fashion. there is no real point in pie in the sky dreaming of magic puddings....

 

we are very early in journey of the EV. even though been on it for far longer than people realise....these things do take time and we will I have no doubt get there on a mass scale and to point we take granted...but we have to be respectful of time it takes and whats needed ... :) 

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13 minutes ago, betty boop said:

why does it have to be at an individual and domestic level when this can be achieved at a far more economical rate in a large industrial scale. storage is also uneconomical as then you end up dealing with efficiency losses. we have the battery of the nation in anycase both snowy hydro and what is happening in tassie and elons battery in SA that are far better examples if you want storage on mass :)

Who in this thread has suggested that mass storage has to be at an individual and domestic level?

 

Mass electrical energy storage doesn't have to be at the domestic level. However it is common in developed regions of the world with plenty of sunshine, and detached houses, for households to invest in solar panels. 

 

Although I didn't mention it, there is an enormous world market for economic high energy density  batteries for use in mobile phones, tablets and laptops.

 

But none of what I've written in this post is a revelation.  Or contentious. It's quite mundane!

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6 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Who in this thread has suggested that mass storage has to be at an individual and domestic level?

 

Mass electrical energy storage doesn't have to be at the domestic level. However it is common in developed regions of the world with plenty of sunshine, and detached houses, for households to invest in solar panels. 

 

Although I didn't mention it, there is an enormous world market for economic high energy density  batteries for use in mobile phones, tablets and laptops.

 

But none of what I've written in this post is a revelation.  Or contentious. It's quite mundane!

well that is what i am suggesting ? it is much better off done in a mass fashion. last thing we want is individual and domestic level the way it was driven with PV. Even though i myself got sucked up in it, its really not most cost effective or efficient way of doing things. anyways this is way off topic of this thread... i'll leave it there :) 

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in truck news... the Tesla semi has a hold up ... batteries ... even musk cant do anything about that and suggesting to even move in to mining to solve that problem ! 

 

on other news that is good. the tesla ute might have an imminent reveal... an important model for australia given the fascination here for the tradie ute... no 1 selling "car" is the hilux ute :D so no doubt it could be something to spur along demand for EVs locally.... no idea when that coming though... but unveil should be shortly...

 

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/motoring-news/bad-news-for-important-tesla-model/news-story/23585746b8e697b8f156be6894fc6648

 

 

"Another week and another set of challenges for electric car maker Tesla, which has delayed another of its upcoming models.

This time it’s the much-hyped electric truck that has been pushed back until “the end of 2020”, which in Tesla speak could well mean 2021 — likely much later for Australia.

Speaking at the recent shareholders presentation, outspoken Tesla CEO Elon Musk confirmed the Tesla Semi — claimed to be the “safest, most comfortable truck ever” — would go into production late in 2020 at the earliest.

Musk pointed to battery production as the source of the hold up.

“There’s not much point in adding product complexity if we don’t have enough batteries,” he said after saying the Semi should go into production “hopefully towards the end of next year”.

“We’re matching the product rollout according to the scaling of battery production.”

The Semi was first talked about in 2016 before being unveiled late in 2017, making it one of the longest gestation periods for a new Tesla. Production was initially scheduled for 2019.

Musk also hinted Tesla could look to expand into mining, something that will no doubt have critics and some investors concerned that the electric car maker is diversifying further from the business of making cars (Tesla also produces solar panels and home battery systems, for example).

While there were no details, clearly it’s something Musk believes is a priority.

“As we scale battery production to very high levels, we actually have to look further down the supply chain and we might get into the mining business, I don’t know … maybe a little bit at least.

“We’ll do whatever we have to ensure that we can scale the fastest rate possible.”

Of more interest to Australians is the imminent reveal of the first Tesla ute, or pick-up truck.

Musk refers to it as the “Cyberpunk Truck” and calls it “the coolest car I’ve ever seen”.

“The pick-up truck, which we hope to unveil hopefully this summer … we spent a lot of time on designing the pick-up truck … this is something that if you’re driving it down the road looks like it came out of a sci-fi movie, it’ll be really cool.”

Perhaps of more concern for those who’ve splashed out hundreds of thousands of dollars to reserve one is that there was little mention of the Roadster, claimed to be “the quickest car in the world”.

Tesla is currently taking $66,000 reservations for the two-door four-seater or you can fork out $326,000 for one of the 1000 “Founders Series” cars, which is still available, suggesting demand hasn’t been as robust as it was for the soon-to-arrive Model 3 that sells for a fraction of its price.

One made an appearance in the carpark of the investor presentation, but the brand’s halo car was not a focus of the day."

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3 hours ago, betty boop said:

why ? the very fact you are asking for LCT to be removed is missing the elephant in the room that the reason LCT is being charged on EVs are that they are far too expensive !!! .... far and above what common folk can ever afford. We need more affordable EVs ... that is what will cause a boom. not government taking a few percents off price of uber luxury priced cars. 

 

Apart from the fact that the LCT was introduced to protect the local car industry, the most expensive component in EVs is the battery. For cars that have a price point just above the LCT threshold, it effectively becomes a battery tax. 

Of course, as I said, we can do nothing. EVs are becoming cheaper, with no Government policy whatsoever they will soon become cheaper than equivalent ICE cars. ICE R&D will reduce and soon 'the market' will take care of it. Do we want 'the market' to be the sole determinant of our energy and transport infrastructure, or do you see a role for Government policy?

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On 16/06/2019 at 6:28 PM, betty boop said:

Slow drip feed on info on the honda E which has had good interest overseas, the RWD and 200 km range... things like 50:50 balance and 30 min charge all sound good. unfortunate to read that honda au on back of their failure with hybrids here are sounding a bit look warm though still definitely interested. cost over seas is still not at all in the affordable price point  when  this should is where it should be as a little city car...

 

Honda Australia is lukewarm because there's no Government policy that allows them to be price competitive in 2020. We'll probably get it by 2022 when EVs are price competitive. Meanwhile they'll dump their old technology here

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34 minutes ago, betty boop said:

in truck news... the Tesla semi has a hold up ... batteries ... even musk cant do anything about that and suggesting to even move in to mining to solve that problem ! 

 

on other news that is good. the tesla ute might have an imminent reveal... an important model for australia given the fascination here for the tradie ute... no 1 selling "car" is the hilux ute :D so no doubt it could be something to spur along demand for EVs locally.... no idea when that coming though... but unveil should be shortly...

 

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/motoring-news/bad-news-for-important-tesla-model/news-story/23585746b8e697b8f156be6894fc6648

 

Tesla's major battery cell competitors have been owing raw materials supply chains for decades. Of more concern is that they don't have supply - Panasonic has essentially walked, and they're left finding new partners. 

 

4 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

Apart from the fact that the LCT was introduced to protect the local car industry, the most expensive component in EVs is the battery. For cars that have a price point just above the LCT threshold, it effectively becomes a battery tax. 

Of course, as I said, we can do nothing. EVs are becoming cheaper, with no Government policy whatsoever they will soon become cheaper than equivalent ICE cars. ICE R&D will reduce and soon 'the market' will take care of it. Do we want 'the market' to be the sole determinant of our energy and transport infrastructure, or do you see a role for Government policy?

 

EVs won't soon become cheaper than ICE in a wholesale manner - that's why we need policy.

 

1 hour ago, betty boop said:

why does it have to be at an individual and domestic level

 

In some cases because transmission and distribution losses are real, and/or because the cost of the power interface is significant, and/or because limiting net demand is the key determinant of distribution network costs - themselves the main driver of energy cost increases the last 15 years. 

 

Large storage is likely to win in the mid to long term though not for the reasons you suggest.

 

All for large storage. It's only broadside arguments that lose out. 

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3 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

Apart from the fact that the LCT was introduced to protect the local car industry, the most expensive component in EVs is the battery. For cars that have a price point just above the LCT threshold, it effectively becomes a battery tax. 

Of course, as I said, we can do nothing. EVs are becoming cheaper, with no Government policy whatsoever they will soon become cheaper than equivalent ICE cars. ICE R&D will reduce and soon 'the market' will take care of it. Do we want 'the market' to be the sole determinant of our energy and transport infrastructure, or do you see a role for Government policy?

given vic government just added their own LCT. ?? be yelling at the wind on this one I suspect ? as you say something that will sort it self out in anycase ? given on slaughter of EVs heading our way in coming years from all sort of makers ..compeititon ... market forces... its what has made cars today ever more cheaper and affodable than ever ... and with NO help from the government :D

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1 hour ago, betty boop said:

why does it have to be at an individual and domestic level when this can be achieved at a far more economical rate in a large industrial scale. storage is also uneconomical as then you end up dealing with efficiency losses. we have the battery of the nation in anycase both snowy hydro and what is happening in tassie and elons battery in SA that are far better examples if you want storage on mass :)

 

...because that would require a national energy policy. We don't have one. State Governments subsidise rooftop PV and home batteries, that's driven the market uptake. As PV prices have dropped, so have the subsidies. The same would happen with EVs. Just as not every rooftop needs to have PV panels for the change to be seen as desirable and 'normal' the same would happen with EVs. I think that you're being far too pessimistic on this Al

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7 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

Honda Australia is lukewarm because there's no Government policy that allows them to be price competitive in 2020. We'll probably get it by 2022 when EVs are price competitive. Meanwhile they'll dump their old technology here

dunno prof apparently to expect price in uk same as bmws i3 and tesla 3 and there are 31,000 people interested honda says....

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/16/honda-e-electric-car-details-emerge-31000-people-say-they-want-one/

 

if they dont even make vailable here we dont even get a bite on that cherry .... but anyways it is their call :) .... they havent as yet said no ...  :) 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, betty boop said:

given vic government just added their own LCT. ?? be yelling at the wind on this one I suspect ? as you say something that will sort it self out in anycase ? given on slaughter of EVs heading our way in coming years from all sort of makers ..compeititon ... market forces... its what has made cars today ever more cheaper and affodable than ever ... and with NO help from the government :D

Sure, it'll happen, but it means that we will have no coordinated national plan that influences the shape of our future energy and transport infrastructure.

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14 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

...because that would require a national energy policy. We don't have one. State Governments subsidise rooftop PV and home batteries, that's driven the market uptake. As PV prices have dropped, so have the subsidies. The same would happen with EVs. Just as not every rooftop needs to have PV panels for the change to be seen as desirable and 'normal' the same would happen with EVs. I think that you're being far too pessimistic on this Al

yes a result of non strategy....

 

not suggesting subsidisation is not a good thing.... ive said before carrot and incentives are good, drive behaviours....just ...  it aint happening and suggest to expect government to do so might be a stretch... but hey who knows .... nothing stopping being overly optimistic on that one...these things can change all the time :) but thats politics .... 

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52 minutes ago, betty boop said:

market forces... its what has made cars today ever more cheaper and affodable than ever ... and with NO help from the government :D

 

Bullshido. 

 

The local industry was subsidised for a good bit there. The only real hybrid vehicle we had here as a tangible option was very subsidised by the government here, and each one was sold at a loss. Why? Because it was deemed a good thing to have in state and federal policy.

 

Most auto companies here run their passenger vehicle divisions at a loss, so anyone thinking that auto companies are getting quietly excited about selling EVs at competitive prices at an even greater loss is kidding themselves. A lot. And not listening to any automaker's constant refrain of 'with a little help it'd be a shedload easier to get these cars out here - we're not asking for a free ride, just some policy direction to tip the balance'. 

 

Been in product planning meetings a good bit and every single time a PHEV/EV/whatever choice comes up the same question comes - it costs more, and where that coming from.

 

And every vehicle charging network project that got up in Australia was done completely without government help oh wait that's wrong too. Government money there too. 

 

Maybe the energy that goes into them that makes EVs a reality can be created without government subsidy nup no that's incorrect, there's policy and investment distortion everywhere there too because someone gave a crap about CO2 at a global level and we thought it a good idea to get relevant. Could build more coal, could build a lot more hydro and fill our cars out of that. 

 

But if we focus on today's cars there's none of that gumph and you're probably right about there being no govt help around the cars we enjoy that are cheaper and more affordable than ever, they're not made here so there's no build subsidies, right? I mean they're from China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, the USA, Thailand, these are the countries whose exports really really ramping auto price and competitiveness in Australia... and ah ***, they've all got free trade agreements with Australia. 

 

52 minutes ago, betty boop said:

market forces... its what has made cars today ever more cheaper and affodable than ever ... and with NO help from the government :D

 

Seems a bit of a furphy, albeit a well-intended one. 

 

Government intervention is everywhere. That's what governments do - pick things best in our interest (with variable accuracy) and lead accordingly.

 

All that's being discussed is some leadership in low-CO2 transport. Whether it's CO2 policy, direct subsidy, adjacent stimulus... really doesn't matter. Leadership counts - I'd suggest that's @proftournesol's point. 

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2 hours ago, betty boop said:

 

Musk also hinted Tesla could look to expand into mining, something that will no doubt have critics and some investors concerned that the electric car maker is diversifying further from the business of making cars (Tesla also produces solar panels and home battery systems, for example).

While there were no details, clearly it’s something Musk believes is a priority.

One of Tesla's less obvious advantages over traditional car manufacturers is their vertical integration. Controlling your own supply of Lithium is just a part of that, and strategically, very important. EV production is going to be supply constrained for every manufacturer, Tesla has recognised that and is developing a strategy to avoid this. Gigafactory 2 was developed to produce more than (then) the entire world's existing Li battery capacity, the Li has to come from somewhere. Tesla is anticipating the need for another 6 of those battery factories. Any critics that are concerned about this just don't understand what is required

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