Jump to content

betty boop

electric cars

Recommended Posts

15 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

@betty boop

 

the current RAV4 Hybrid seem to have nailed on the head in fuel costs and 1/2 that of a non RAV4 Hybrid....     I can see that the Prius wasn’t exactly cost saving when these items break....  let’s face it,  depending on the Km done and time expire, these things are going to need replacing... you can see in the US that the Prius resale value isn’t good, literally on the market next to nothing and you couldn’t give it away because of all these electrical issues....  Building the motor into the drive chain isn’t exactly serviceable,  even the water pump is in a difficult area to replace.  

As @proftournesol has mentioned that he’s had the motor on the Tesla replaced even during warranty, this suggest it’s typical technology as a learning curve,  the reliability isn’t there yet and you’ll expect better for being electric with less moving parts but this somehow saids to me that’s not the case....  I think if you’re a 1st adopter you must tread with caution,  as a technician I’m always looking at things that can break!  

Don’t get too caught up on 1/2 fuel costs on hybrid, sounds good for test rig measurement but that doesn’t translate in real world as hybrid does nothing for very long and hence most time. The battery is quite small at only 1.6kwh.

 

and oh yeah when cars can be 2nd largest expense made you won’t be catching me as guinea pig paying off their initial R&D costs :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, betty boop said:

Don’t get too caught up on 1/2 fuel costs on hybrid, sounds good for test rig measurement but that doesn’t translate in real world as hybrid does nothing for very long and hence most time. The battery is quite small at only 1.6kwh.

 

and oh yeah when cars can be 2nd largest expense made you won’t be catching me as guinea pig paying off their initial R&D costs :D

The RAV4 Hybrid has come down in price and in reach for going green....

Now if replacing batteries, water pumps and electric drive motors and generators were within a few hundred dollars, then it may be feasible in the long run,  but at this stage we are not taking cheap few hundreds, we are talking thousands!    One hit on these items throws your predictive cost saving out the door, regardless of climbing fuel prices!  

Not exactly green when it goes to landfill and you need a replacement!  

Edited by Addicted to music

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

The RAV4 Hybrid has come down in price and in reach for going green....

Now if replacing batteries, water pumps and electric drive motors and generators were within a few hundred dollars, then it may be feasible in the long run,  but at this stage we are not taking cheap few hundreds, we are talking thousands!    One hit on these items throws your predictive cost saving out the door, regardless of climbing fuel prices!  

Not exactly green when it goes to landfill and you need a replacement!  

 

A bit of perspective though,  on a modern Hyundai, I had the climate control start to play up, and the little box in the dash with the display and controls etc, was going to cost $1500 plus labour to fit.    That's a small box with run of the mill electronics in it that would sell for under $100 if sold on eBay out of Asia.

 

Small wonder an electric motor or batteries on an electric car don't come cheap either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

A bit of perspective though,  on a modern Hyundai, I had the climate control start to play up, and the little box in the dash with the display and controls etc, was going to cost $1500 plus labour to fit.    That's a small box with run of the mill electronics in it that would sell for under $100 if sold on eBay out of Asia.

 

Small wonder an electric motor or batteries on an electric car don't come cheap either.

When they advertise a 5yr warranty, ever notice they often won’t replace items that you report faulty but intermittent and they tell you you need proof. So you video tape it to provide proof and even then if you don’t bark loud and hard enough it will never be replace....   Then after warranty it’s like oh yes this is faulty etc etc.....cost $xxxxx.xx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


9 hours ago, Addicted to music said:
  • Correct me if I’m wrong but there are 2 motors,  if one goes noisy what are the chances that the other is about to go noisy?    If there are 2 then both would have done the same milage.   Should have got them to replaced both under warranty.....😜

Almost all current Teslas are dual motor, but some 3s and all Ss prior to 2016 are single motor RWD. It's extremely unlikely that anyone would be replacing 2 motors. Motor warranty lasts 8 years so there isn't a single Tesla yet out of it's drive train warranty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

When they advertise a 5yr warranty, ever notice they often won’t replace items that you report faulty but intermittent and they tell you you need proof. So you video tape it to provide proof and even then if you don’t bark loud and hard enough it will never be replace....   Then after warranty it’s like oh yes this is faulty etc etc.....cost $xxxxx.xx

Yep.  It's happened a number of times to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, betty boop said:

Don’t get too caught up on 1/2 fuel costs on hybrid, sounds good for test rig measurement but that doesn’t translate in real world as hybrid does nothing for very long and hence most time. The battery is quite small at only 1.6kwh.

 

Horsepoo. That's a significant misunderstanding of how a hybrid/electric anything goes - same goes for your 'two powertrains' comment. 

 

Real world - hybrid runs most of the time, and the savings are proportionate to battery size, usage, etc. Last parallel hybrid I leased was ~40% better on fuel consumption than the ICE variant... and I also ran real-world data on the other ~1500 nearly identical cars (around 350 were hybrid) the same company ran. Savings for a small car parallel hybrid to ICE were over 50%. 

 

Never mind that brakes wore out less often, less NVH related failures/service items, etc.

 

22 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

The RAV4 Hybrid has come down in price and in reach for going green....

Now if replacing batteries, water pumps and electric drive motors and generators were within a few hundred dollars, then it may be feasible in the long run,  but at this stage we are not taking cheap few hundreds, we are talking thousands!    One hit on these items throws your predictive cost saving out the door, regardless of climbing fuel prices!  

Not exactly green when it goes to landfill and you need a replacement!  

 

If your argument stood up then most of Australia's taxi industry is in deep said horsepoo. That or they're getting by just fine. The last time I was quoted $800 for a gear linkage on the last ICE I owned that I bought (genuine part) off eBay for $82 didn't have me running towards EVs. Point is - shop around always. 

 

If you paid full whack for a e.g. Camry battery it'd be around $4k to replace. Often it's not the whole battery that needs replacing, and earliest failures are in silly hot climates from 350,000km (most battery failures are well over 400,000km) but let's assume you had to replace the whole thing. You're saving around (real world numbers) 4L/100km. 

 

So that's 350,000/100*4=14,000L. 

That 14,000L of petrol would need to cost you less than $4k for this FUD to stand up. That'd be 28.6c/L. 

 

Fuel costs a bit more over my way. How about you?

 

22 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

water pumps and electric drive motors and generators

 

Water pumps are the same as most modern cars these days - a ton of cars use electric pumps. They're more efficient. Nothing different or special. 

 

The motor is the generator. Usually it outlasts the car, just as most electric motors in any other application tend to outlast the application. There is extremely little (practically nothing) to go wrong. 

Edited by rmpfyf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


22 hours ago, betty boop said:

AM that is the problem with the added complexity of hybrid. multiple power sources drive trains. None of these things justify cost savings at the pump....any fuel cost savings are very small vs initial service cost and other running costs. the biggest factor in cost of ownership in cars still remain. purchase cost and standing costs... 

 

electric cars range from $193/wk hyundia ionic to tesla model X $514/wk

 

petrol cars range from $118/wk kia picanto to a bmw X5 diesel thats $450/wk

 

 https://www.racv.com.au/royalauto/moving/news-information/car-running-costs.html

 

ps a rav4 seems about similar to a camry hybrid that can see :)

 

Price of EVs in 2019 is and isn’ t an issue, depending on model.

 

VS Audi A4 and BMW 3 series the Model 3 wins hands down.  It’s drivetrain is just better, it’s cheaper to run but costs the same to buy.  The Germans are lovely cars I am sure, and in the past I have wished I could get one or the other.  As a kid I doodled early 3 series BMWs and when older I tried to work out how I could afford  one.  It’s almost 2020.  The A4 and 3 series  are relics once you have spent a bit of time driving the future.  ( if this isn’t the future then we are in big big trouble, or preferably  we will all ride electric bikes instead)

 

A $40k ID3 would be brilliant. If they could hit that price point and start deliveries before this time next year in Australia, that would be ideal. Raise the ride height an inch and stick black cladding on the wheel arches and you would sell so many to the medium CUV market. Why would you buy a CX5, number 6 seller in the Australian market.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

am sure folk can make their very own value judgements to work out if EVs price is a problem. am sure it isnt a problem for some, but clearly for the very great slabs of majority out there it very much is.

 

am also sure folks as they do now will continue to work out what is relevant to them. cleary some will believe some cars are relics while others clearly believe otherwise because they are still selling and in quite significant numbers. not that the car market like housing at present is in great shape.....

 

goodness knows what the ID3 will come out at, but even $40k is way past affordability for most in what is a small car. not really anymore the  "peoples car"

 

cx5 ?  folk looking at it and alternatives am sure will easily decide.  and ... ultimately what people buy decides. keeping in mind a lot of very mundane cars out there sell in very great numbers. the best selling is the toyota hilux ... last thing id ever want :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

some makers are letting the customer choose ... great to see peugeot's commitment with providing choice for electric for every model, now lets hope the local guys also decide its worth providing the option locally :D 

 

https://www.caradvice.com.au/790489/peugeot-hybrid-electric-rollout/

 

"Peugeot poised for plug-in hybrid and electric-car rollout

 

As part of its long term strategy for Australia, Peugeot head office will allow the local distributor to decide which models will work best Down Under.

 

Peugeot Australia is poised to introduce a range of plug-in hybrid and pure electric vehicles to sell alongside its petrol-powered range in a bold attempt to attract new buyers by reacting quickly to our changing taste in cars.

Over the next five years, every model in the Peugeot line-up will have the option of hybrid or electric power – but head office in France says it will let the local distributor decide which models to sell here.

Peugeot is about to release overseas a plug-in hybrid version of its 3008 SUV – with 50km of electric driving range before the petrol engine takes over – but others will follow.

 

“In the coming years each and every time we launch a new car there will be an electrified version available, whether it is pure electric or a plug-in hybrid,” the global boss of the Peugeot brand, Jean-Philippe Imparato, told a briefing with Australian media. “But which ones come to Australia will be decided by the local team.”

 

Mr Farlow added: “When we launch electric vehicles or (plug-in hybrids) into this market we will do it seriously. We’re in a position that’s the envy of many others across our portfolio,” he said, pointing to Peugeot's range of future passenger cars, SUVs and vans that will all have the option of hybrid or pure electric power.

 

Peugeot has recently unveiled a pure electric 208 hatchback (pictured above and below) and 2008 SUV in Europe, both of which are made on modular platforms that can accomodate electric, petrol or diesel power options.

However, plug-in hybrids are expected to be available on more models across the future Peugeot range, especially on the brand’s SUVs and vans."

 

and some pretty smart looking options they seem to have as well ! 

diydstednaltptj7tciv.jpg

 

md4kepr6ph2zqj1twjxt.jpg

 

oqgibvx4xdosgptxr0iv.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


10 minutes ago, betty boop said:

  folk looking at it and alternatives am sure will easily decide.  and ... ultimately what people buy decides. keeping in mind a lot of very mundane cars out there sell in very great numbers. the best selling is the toyota hilux ... last thing id ever want :D 

I’d bet the Hilux goes like a Camry.  :D

Theres a number of things the Cx5 does well,  gears, gears, gears... oh did I mentioned gears.....  There adaptive intelligent cruise control works at all speeds, cylinder deactivation,  and it’s comfortable and quite...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

I’d bet the Hilux goes like a Camry.  :D

Theres a number of things the Cx5 does well,  gears, gears, gears... oh did I mentioned gears.....  There adaptive intelligent cruise control works at all speeds, cylinder deactivation,  and it’s comfortable and quite...

brother in law has a hilux... god awful things ... only good if want to lug stuff and a tradie, not sure why else anyone woudl get one unless into self torture :D 

 

cx5 is a good thing. real gears :D we prefer our little mazda 3 but yeah if looking for SUV its no doubt got a lot to love :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, betty boop said:

brother in law has a hilux... god awful things ... only good if want to lug stuff and a tradie, not sure why else anyone woudl get one unless into self torture :D 

 

cx5 is a good thing. real gears :D we prefer our little mazda 3 but yeah if looking for SUV its no doubt got a lot to love :) 

I’m tossing between the Cx5, RAV4 or Hybrid variant, Honda CRV....

 

EV,  I’m not a early adopter,  waiting for 7-8 gen and some better environmentally friendly cells that’s worth the change, by that time parts will be plentiful,  im expecting replace parts in a EV will be an easy thing an operator will do and it will do away the way we service vehicles today, just like the products I work on...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

I’m tossing between the Cx5, RAV4 or Hybrid variant, Honda CRV....

probably not the only one tossing between these options :D they are popular things :) 

 

6 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

EV,  I’m not a early adopter,  waiting for 7-8 gen and some better environmentally friendly cells that’s worth the change, by that time parts will be plentiful,  im expecting replace parts in a EV will be an easy thing an operator will do and it will do away the way we service vehicles today, just like the products I work on...

most folks are not. especially when it comes to such a significant expense :) most every day folks are just buying everyday cars with no desire to be guinea pigs in an expensive experiment. 

 

our own family car is some 5 years old as a mazda 3 we quite frankly at this point see no rhyme reason to replace it let alone with an EV :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


1 minute ago, betty boop said:

our own family car is some 5 years old as a mazda 3 we quite frankly at this point see no rhyme reason to replace it let alone with an EV :) 

 

We had a small second car, but rather than replace it with an electric to run about locally, we are just going to go back to being a one car family and  I don't see an electric replacing the diesel for towing the van anytime soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

We had a small second car, but rather than replace it with an electric to run about locally, we are just going to go back to being a one car family and  I don't see an electric replacing the diesel for towing the van anytime soon.

if we were an older couple with kids grown up/none to cart around, we would have just kept our little fiat 500 and have nothing else :) be a while yet before there is an affordable EV run about the likes of the little fiat i suspect. even its electric replacement next year is supposedly not only going up in size but also in dollars ! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Goodaye all

 

Everybody wants to be green but loose sight of the fact of how to get there.

The electricity infastructure has to be changed/upgraded to allow mass charging of EV's.

Charging stations need to be common and fast.

Batteries still have a long way to go and need to be still cheaper.

 

l think in about 10 years when the current crop of EV's need new batteries we will see what happens.

Lithium batteries are a difficult to recycle.

 

Dont get me wrong l think EV's have a place and will become dominent just not as soon or easily as everyone thinks.

 

Me l'll generate my own power, use rainwater around the house and fill my recycle bins.

Hope that makes up for all my cars and the fact l rain down lead  when l am flying.

 

regards Bruce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, sloper said:

Goodaye all

 

Everybody wants to be green but loose sight of the fact of how to get there.

The electricity infastructure has to be changed/upgraded to allow mass charging of EV's.

Charging stations need to be common and fast.

Batteries still have a long way to go and need to be still cheaper.

 

l think in about 10 years when the current crop of EV's need new batteries we will see what happens.

Lithium batteries are a difficult to recycle.

 

Dont get me wrong l think EV's have a place and will become dominent just not as soon or easily as everyone thinks.

 

Me l'll generate my own power, use rainwater around the house and fill my recycle bins.

Hope that makes up for all my cars and the fact l rain down lead  when l am flying.

 

regards Bruce

 

Actually (coming from the power industry currently) infrastructure changes aren't that severe, not least because the cars won't all turn up tomorrow. In most cases the grid needs to get smarter to manage that demand, but that's consistent with a move towards the grid getting smarter in general (we're interested in demand management for many reasons, not just cars). 

 

Charging stations might need to be common but the majority do not need to be fast. Cars are parked on average 22-23 hours/day. The majority of EVs are 'slow' charged, this is unlikely to change. 

 

Batteries will probably not get so cheap as quick as what people will like, we'll simply get used to charging more often (as in whenever we park a car) and smaller batteries. We might not even end up owning cars, which will change how we use and accordingly design them.

 

Lithium batteries are not difficult to recycle. Complete furphy. Over 90% of what's in a pack can usually be recycled with decent separation technology, sometimes up to 98%. Most auto batteries are capable of finding a second life in other applications. A bigger problem is what to do with the recovered lithium - fresh material is too cheap to justify reusing it in new batteries without some policy in place. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There needs to be a big shake up in infactstructure, how many years now have we been having Load shedding on hot days?

 

regards Bruce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, sloper said:

There needs to be a big shake up in infactstructure, how many years now have we been having Load shedding on hot days?

 

regards Bruce

I see that as incompatible with the sell off of infrastructure and privatisation. The companies will never build sufficient resources to avoid some load shedding (unless forced to)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

Theres a number of things the Cx5 does well,  gears, gears, gears... oh did I mentioned gears.....  There adaptive intelligent cruise control works at all speeds, cylinder deactivation,  and it’s comfortable and quite...

But no boot space... Stupid thing is people buy SUV's with the misconception they can carry more. I always laugh seeing proud BMX X3 or X5 owners at the shopping centre diligently de-constructing their kids pram so they can fit it in the boot. My wife could just fold ours and throw it in the boot of her Golf GTI. Adaptive cruise is not exactly cutting edge these days, both our cars now have it, along with variations of self drive technology.

12 hours ago, betty boop said:

am sure folk can make their very own value judgements to work out if EVs price is a problem. am sure it isnt a problem for some, but clearly for the very great slabs of majority out there it very much is.

I think you overestimate the ability for Joe public to make a rational or researched decision. People mostly buy what they see as cool or "in fashion". So many people want SUV's or dual cab utes despite the manufacturers and reviewers telling them a station wagon is a better bet. Now most manufacturers have given up and make what the great unwashed want. Going back 20 years how many Commodore owners thought of buying anything other than a new Commodore?

 

We will need a critical mass of early adopters to show Joe public the advantages of day to day ownership, rather than looking at the cynical "what if" limitations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

We had a small second car, but rather than replace it with an electric to run about locally, we are just going to go back to being a one car family and  I don't see an electric replacing the diesel for towing the van anytime soon.

probably 2022 before the Rivian is available here, but not at sane $$$ I would expect.

 

What's your vans ATM and towball mass? We are about to go to a ATM of just over 2 tonne and 160-180ish towball mass. The Volvo XC60 we expect to do a sterling job, and it's a lovely car to drive day to day without the van.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, blybo said:

probably 2022 before the Rivian is available here, but not at sane $$$ I would expect.

 

What's your vans ATM and towball mass? We are about to go to a ATM of just over 2 tonne and 160-180ish towball mass. The Volvo XC60 we expect to do a sterling job, and it's a lovely car to drive day to day without the van.

Only small. 1.5 tonne.  The Ford Escape/Kuga we use currently, does an excellent job.  It's also small enough, town driving is easy as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...