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My EV journey has begun.  Picked up “Zephyr” last night at 6.30pm ( along with 5 other people getting their EV  at the same time). It’s my second car where I looked at the number plate and realised Qu

12 months plus of Tesla ownership after waiting a decade plus to own a truely practical EV.  How do I sum it up in one picture ....and I am not great with a camera.   ( photo: looking back from my dri

Now now there's no need for that. My smug look is because I can drag you off.

5 minutes ago, blybo said:

Sorry, should have said the biggest selling models... Hilux #1

 

Ah, ok.

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7 minutes ago, blybo said:

How far and wide do you go?

 

Around Australia twice.  Through the middle, and up the Tanami track to the Kimberlies (I still have red dust in the air vents).  Every Winter I drive up to the gulf or similar lattitudes. Often to and through various parts of Western QLD.  

 

10 minutes ago, blybo said:

It's the chicken and egg thing with infrastructure that is the limiting factor.

 

I can't see there ever being infrastructure on the dirt tracks.  Some of those places don't even have fuel.  I carry extra diesel in jerry cans if needed.  I suppose I could carry a generator to charge an EV :)  

 

It's not just infrastructure.  Most manufacturers don't even make SUVs capable of towing a small van (or trailer of any substantial size)

 

15 minutes ago, blybo said:

I know they are pricey but surely Rivian are making others sit up and look to make cheaper rivals.

The Rivian sees about 50% reductiuon in range when towing apparently.  That isn't going to get you far in Australia.  Of course, yes, price is important.  

 

 

Look, I  was not expecting to be able to get an electric yet.  It's just frustrating that everyone seems to think that it's possible to do away with ICE cars already - and it's just NOT. :( 

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2 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Look, I  was not expecting to be able to get an electric yet.  It's just frustrating that everyone seems to think that it's possible to do away with ICE cars already - and it's just NOT. :( 

Exactly. DEspite what the EV evangelists will say, we are many years from EV's being anything more than a 2nd car or city runabout. Not exactly what most Aussie's lust after. We are hoping my wife's next company car may be an EV... or else she will buy the caravan tug and I'll get the city car now my job doesn't see me travel very much.

 

6 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

The Rivian sees about 50% reductiuon in range when towing apparently.  That isn't going to get you far in Australia.  Of course, yes, price is important.

Don't many of the big 4WD's also see close to a 50% jump when towing a big van? I know from youtube many big lappers quote 23-28l/100km towing compared to 12-15l/100kms without. My diesel Volvo can still get around 12-14l towing our 16' Jayco Expanda, and about 9.4l around town normally.

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22 minutes ago, blybo said:

Sorry, should have said the biggest selling models... Hilux #1

 

You don't consider that the government policy of no FBT on Utes has a bearing on what businesses purchase?

 

7 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Look, I  was not expecting to be able to get an electric yet.  It's just frustrating that everyone seems to think that it's possible to do away with ICE cars already - and it's just NOT. :( 

 

I completely agree. Took my X from Perth to Albany last week. With the harsh weather (cyclone) on the way down our range was limited to 300km at one point. However on the way back with no massive head winds it came back up to around 420km. 

 

The learning from this was that the vehicle is perfectly suitable for 99% of my usage being around Perth, but heading anything further than 350km requires planning. In your usage case I can't think of any currently available vehicle that would suit aside from a diesel 4WD with long range tanks.

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2 minutes ago, blybo said:

Don't many of the big 4WD's also see close to a 50% jump when towing a big van?

 

Sure but you can fit a second fuel tank and carry extra fuel.    Can't do that in an EV.

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1 minute ago, caminperth said:

You don't consider that the government policy of no FBT on Utes has a bearing on what businesses purchase?

I think that is a Furphy TBH. Sure smart businesses would consider FBT, but my FBT expenses in previous company cars have been not much more than a tank or 2 of fuel each year. If you work from home or have your office close by, virtually all travel can be massaged into business use.

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3 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Sure but you can fit a second fuel tank and carry extra fuel.    Can't do that in an EV.

Yet. As you said a gen might be an emergency option. I'm sure ARB or similar will jump at the opportunity to sell an aftermarket solution... once such cars are out in the wild. We already have starter battery packs

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Just now, blybo said:

I think that is a Furphy TBH. Sure smart businesses would consider FBT, but my FBT expenses in previous company cars have been not much more than a tank or 2 of fuel each year. If you work from home or have your office close by, virtually all travel can be massaged into business use.

 

I think you're looking at it from an employee's view - What if the business purchases the vehicle?

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5 minutes ago, caminperth said:

 

I think you're looking at it from an employee's view - What if the business purchases the vehicle?

I'm a small business owner. They still get the employee to fill in the log books. My accountant once told me he has never experienced or heard of a logbook audit in 30+ years in the industry.

 

I'd say the majority of utes I see on the road would be for personal use anyway, or a small business owner who buys for the look more than true use... otherwise there would be less sold with tubs and fancy add ons and more base spec with factory trays.

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4 minutes ago, blybo said:

I'm a small business owner. They still get the employee to fill in the log books. My accountant once told me he has never experienced or heard of a logbook audit in 30+ years in the industry.

 

I'd say the majority of utes I see on the road would be for personal use anyway, or a small business owner who buys for the look more than true use... otherwise there would be less sold with tubs and fancy add ons and more base spec with factory trays.

 

I too am a business owner and would challenge your assumption on what use the Utes you see are for. We have 8 VW Amarok Utes - all for work purposes. We purchased Utes as they are exempt from FBT. 

 

This is an example  how government policy drives the market, which is my main point.

 

The only way EVs will progress in Australia is if the government pulls their finger out and does something about it.

 

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10 minutes ago, caminperth said:

We have 8 VW Amarok Utes - all for work purposes. We purchased Utes as they are exempt from FBT. 

 

This is an example  how government policy drives the market, which is my main point.

 

My V8 Commodore was virtually FBT exempt too. I don't see the logic. If they are all for work purposes then all you are saving is some book-keeping. If any vehicle is used for business use it is FBT free. I don't see what is driving your purchase decision except what is most suited to the business use. The FBT thing is only beneficial if you want to drive a Dual cab for non business reasons. Hence why the ATO have threatened to take ute rego photos at the local footy matches etc

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8 minutes ago, caminperth said:

This is an example  how government policy drives the market, which is my main point.

 

 

Also good for scoring points in election campaigns. 

 

“We are going to stand by our tradies. And we are going to save their utes.”

 

As an ex-tradie I would never consider a dual cab a work vehicle, but they sure are popular with those in the building and construction industries, especially if they're not actually on the tools ?

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17 minutes ago, ArthurDent said:

 

Also good for scoring points in election campaigns. 

 

“We are going to stand by our tradies. And we are going to save their utes.”

 

As an ex-tradie I would never consider a dual cab a work vehicle, but they sure are popular with those in the building and construction industries, especially if they're not actually on the tools ?

I remember some 20 odd years ago visiting Shepparton in country Vic for a girlfriend's little brother's 21st. The next day most of the boys congregated back at the farm just out of town for more drinks and the yard was full of utes. After going around the circle asking them what they all did for work only 1 out of 14 of them was a tradie... and he was only 1 NOT driving a ute. He was a sparkie and had a Hi-Ace van :fear:

Edited by blybo
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2 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

Maybe they want subsidies?   

Well, subsidies to business would be the last thing that would get in the way for this Government. The problem is, the way that it works in overseas markets is that the subsidy goes to the buyer in the form of a rebate, not to the dealer/manufacturer

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7 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

Well, subsidies to business would be the last thing that would get in the way for this Government. The problem is, the way that it works in overseas markets is that the subsidy goes to the buyer in the form of a rebate, not to the dealer/manufacturer

 

Quite weird really as the government would then get the kudos from the buying public if the subsidy went to the purchaser. If the manufacturer got the subsidy then they would just talk up how hard they are working to give the public cheaper prices. I guess mass subsidies to manufacturers are easier to implement/manage.

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1 minute ago, blybo said:

 

Quite weird really as the government would then get the kudos from the buying public if the subsidy went to the purchaser. If the manufacturer got the subsidy then they would just talk up how hard they are working to give the public cheaper prices. I guess mass subsidies to manufacturers are easier to implement/manage.

They philoophically don't like giving money direct to citizens, giving money to large corporations doesn't appear to be a problem though. It's also strange to me as a large number of EVs all charging at night seems to be the only compelling case for gas or coal generated power

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2 hours ago, blybo said:

 

Sure. However, many US centric models also make a lot of sense in big brown Oz. You don't think Ford Oz would sell a bazillion RHD Bronco's or F150s (Even the EV version) if given the chance?

 

Bronco_2dr_4dr_01-1-1024x576.jpg

hi blybo, in early 90s i was driving around a f150 as company run about ... so a RHD was sold upto 2007 it seems ...but it was really converted to RHD at brazil factory to get to us.... a bit of a process. as i understand it the platform upto now not really changed in all these years so still the gran pa axe under the metal its always been.

 

there is a next gen f150 landing in 2021 not sure if above pic is this new version bronco of it but rumoured finally to be a world version...... and apparently ford australia have asked for RHD from factory...

 

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/the-battle-of-the-big-trucks-ford-australia-has-asked-for-right-hand-drive-f-150-to-take-on

 

but it it seems currently still no plans for RHD !  these US centric ...unlikely our market and volumes are much of concern...

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3 minutes ago, betty boop said:

hi blybo, in early 90s i was driving around a f150 as company run about ... so a RHD was sold upto 2007 it seems ...but it was really converted to RHD at brazil factory to get to us.... a bit of a process. as i understand it the platform upto now not really changed in all these years so still the gran pa axe under the metal its always been.

 

there is a next gen f150 landing in 2021 not sure if above pic is this new version bronco of it but rumoured finally to be a world version...... and apparently ford australia have asked for RHD from factory...

 

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/the-battle-of-the-big-trucks-ford-australia-has-asked-for-right-hand-drive-f-150-to-take-on

 

but it it seems currently still no plans for RHD !  these US centric ...unlikely our market and volumes are much of concern...

Yeah that is the new gen Bronco. Getting massive interest in US.

 

Didn't Ford say last year they would no longer make RHD vehicles... or was that just passenger vehicles? I guess these are classified trucks, not passenger vehicles. I was hoping an all new EV platform would be easier to produce left AND right hand drive as most of the controls are software driven.

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2 hours ago, blybo said:

 

My V8 Commodore was virtually FBT exempt too. I don't see the logic. If they are all for work purposes then all you are saving is some book-keeping. If any vehicle is used for business use it is FBT free. I don't see what is driving your purchase decision except what is most suited to the business use. The FBT thing is only beneficial if you want to drive a Dual cab for non business reasons. Hence why the ATO have threatened to take ute rego photos at the local footy matches etc

 

Again - we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Any simple tax audit will require a certain amount of "private use" for non FBT exempt vehicles.

 

To put this into context for driving purchasing decisions, for every 50k of car value at "normal" accounting private use it's around 5-6k per year in FBT.

 

Hence the large number of Utes kicking around used for work/private at no FBT cost (or risk at audit time).

 

Government policy driving purchasing decisions. Which, circling back to it, is what the ABC article was trying to put forward...

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26 minutes ago, blybo said:

Yeah that is the new gen Bronco. Getting massive interest in US.

 

Didn't Ford say last year they would no longer make RHD vehicles... or was that just passenger vehicles? I guess these are classified trucks, not passenger vehicles. I was hoping an all new EV platform would be easier to produce left AND right hand drive as most of the controls are software driven.

 

hi blybo that was GM...as soon as they dumped holden and having flogged off opel already... that when it was announced they were out of RHD. though id never say never... i suspect a lot of this is cost cutting for them, getting back to basics ...ie just concerning them with their local market... rather than costs to support little tiny markets like ours and all costs go towards doing that...

 

ps ford announced about 2-3 years ago they would wind back making "cars" in the us... to focus on SUVs and crossover and such... this really means the sedan thats eliminated and for us market.. and to be honest the sedans they were making there were pretty horrid ... even the falcon that was made here hadn't seen much if any development in 10 years !  ps one that is an exclusion to the no cars i guess is the mustang... and what ford Europe does... so they will keep doing cars is my guess... as long as there is still need....

 

with EVs they still need to be big things to carry all the batteries for longer range... so i totally expect a SUV and crossover focus...to be an easier ask for many makers....

 

but hopefully we get to see some smaller EVs even if have city type range and smaller in size as well hopefully meaning  lower in cost as well that more folks can afford....

 

 

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world is going truck mad... this is abomination thats being dealt out... good god hope doesnt come our way :D it can stay LHD ! this is to rival the ram and silverado

2021 GWM X Cannon: Hybrid full-size pick-up unveiled to rival Ram 1500 and Chevrolet Silverado

https://www.drive.com.au/news/2021-gwm-x-cannon-hybrid-full-size-pick-up-unveiled-to-rival-ram-1500-and-chevrolet-silverado/

 

image.png

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8 hours ago, caminperth said:

 

Did you read the article? Nothing to do with local distributors - it re-iterates that it's all to do with EU policies and selling into markets that make the most business sense. 

 

There is no point selling into Australia for most EU manufacturers when they can sell locally and obtain the credits available there.

 

Until we get govt policies that actually direct the market, we will remain a dumping ground for the cheapest/least efficient/most polluting vehicles.

It is a good article.

 

However I would argue that it will take everyone to pull their own weight in order to make progress.

  • govt to set policies and offer incentives
  • consumers to be willing to pay a reasonable premium (and accept any limitations)
  • manufacturers to be willing to accept a lower profit return from exporting EV to Australia (against their business sense)

 

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1 minute ago, LHC said:

It is a good article.

 

However I would argue that it will take everyone to pull their own weight in order to make progress.

  • govt to set policies and offer incentives
  • consumers to be willing to pay a reasonable premium (and accept any limitations)
  • manufacturers to be willing to accept a lower profit return from exporting EV to Australia (against their business sense)

 

 

You make it sound so attractive :)  

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Australians are no different from car buyers in any other market, sales are glacial unless EVs are price competitive at this early adoption phase. Early adopters will compromise on price or usability (range or recharge infrastructure) but mainstream buyers won't. On one hand, if the Government does nothing then eventually EVs will take the market here because they will be cheaper than ICE and there won't be any mass market ICE vehicles for sale, this will happen even without subsidies, however it'll mean that by that stage there will be a large ICE legacy fleet here that will persist for 10+ years after they've largely disappeared from most other markets and the EV transition will take far longer.

Bad policy.

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32 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

however it'll mean that by that stage there will be a large ICE legacy fleet here that will persist for 10+ years after they've largely disappeared from most other markets and the EV transition will take far longer.

Bad policy.

 

I don't know so much.  That might be the best path for us.   The ICE legacy will persist in the regional markets where they are needed and no reasonable EV replacement exists, I would bet.  City take-up of EVs might be sooner.  All in all, it might be the best solution.

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https://www.caradvice.com.au/946173/toyota-why-every-car-on-the-planet-cant-switch-to-electric-power/

 

Toyota: Why every car on the planet can’t switch to electric power

 

 

"Toyota is about to roll out the first of 15 pure-electric cars to supplement its hybrid range. But the world’s biggest automaker has warned not every vehicle on the planet can switch to pure electric power. 

 

The world’s biggest car maker, Toyota, has warned against the push to switch every car on the planet to electric power – because it would simply shift the problem from tailpipes to power stations.

A day after Toyota unveiled its first pure-electric car – the BZ4X, a Toyota RAV4-sized SUV due in overseas showrooms in 2022 and in Australia soon after – the company has warned some sections of the community need to be careful what they wish for when chasing a pure-electric dream.

“Despite this week’s focus on (pure-electric cars), we cannot achieve carbon neutrality simply by turning all our cars into (pure-electric vehicles),” said Sean Hanley, the sales and marketing boss of Toyota Australia.

 

The high-ranking Toyota Australia executive said: “One-quarter of the world’s CO2 emissions today come from electricity generation. Even by 2040, more than half the world’s electricity is expected to be generated by fossil fuels.”

“Therefore,” said the Toyota executive, “if all cars were to become (pure-electric vehicles), the demand for electricity would increase and carbon neutrality could be a long way off.”

Toyota has echoed earlier calls from other sections of the car industry to adopt a “life cycle assessment”, from mining the precious metals required to make batteries, the car assembly process, shipping, road freight, and showrooms.

 

“This requires us to reduce CO2 to zero across production, distribution, use, recycling and disposal of vehicles,” said Mr Hanley. “What we need is more of a big-picture perspective.”

Toyota is the world’s biggest car maker – and sells more hybrids than any other brand – but says customers and governments need to understand there will be a choice of future vehicle technologies.

“We simply cannot achieve carbon neutrality by only producing electric vehicles,” said Mr Hanley, especially as “more than half the electricity generated by 2040 will still be powered by fossil fuels.”

 

Toyota Australia spokesperson Emily Haseloff said a dramatic increase in the sales of electric cars could have “the opposite effect” on overall emissions “unless everyone has solar panels on their house”.

“In the end, the main driver of electrification (of vehicles) will be … the consumer,” said Mr Hanley, adding that Australians have a “broad use” of vehicles and a vast range of demands, from rural and city use to mining and off-road driving.

“Our vehicles must be fit for purpose. There’s no point bringing a car to market if it can’t do what consumers want,” he said. “That doesn’t mean a vehicle needs to be less capable, (but) it needs to be designed and engineered to do what Australians ask of it.”

Toyota says over the next decade it will expand its choice of technology – beyond petrol and diesel vehicles – by introducing more hybrid, plug-in hybrid, pure-electric, and hydrogen models."

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12 hours ago, proftournesol said:

however it'll mean that by that stage there will be a large ICE legacy fleet here that will persist for 10+ years after they've largely disappeared from most other markets and the EV transition will take far longer.

As @aussievintage said, there is a reason Australia still love "legacy" vehicles like Landcruiser 79 series 4WDs. We have soo much remote land that users (including the mining industry) still want simple, reliable and easily repairable vehicles. Apart from engine management there is almost zero electronics. The 79 was released in the 80's and I believe here and Africa are the only markets in the world you can get them. They are even dropping the Landcruiser 200 in the USA, as there isn't that much truly remote areas of the USA (excluding Alaska) so these over-engineered vehicles just aren't needed.

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10 hours ago, betty boop said:

“Our vehicles must be fit for purpose. There’s no point bringing a car to market if it can’t do what consumers want,” he said. “That doesn’t mean a vehicle needs to be less capable, (but) it needs to be designed and engineered to do what Australians ask of it.”

 

Very sensible.  Fit for purpose, AND costing what we perceive a car SHOULD cost, and I'll have one.

 

btw.  it is apt, as I sit here awaiting the verdict on repairs to my SUV.  If the gearbox needs replacing, I will be out looking for a new one.   The options at the moment appear to be limited to another 4WD or AWD diesel.

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21 hours ago, caminperth said:

Any simple tax audit will require a certain amount of "private use" for non FBT exempt vehicles.

 

Not true. Lots of fleet cars are returned to the work site each day and employee makes their own way to/from the office. Plenty also work from home or visit clients on way to the work site (this was my method prior to moving back to a home office) so that the to/from work commute can be claimed as business use. I regularly used to claim 95% business use, all you have to do is complete a log book every few years.

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5 hours ago, blybo said:

 

Not true. Lots of fleet cars are returned to the work site each day and employee makes their own way to/from the office. Plenty also work from home or visit clients on way to the work site (this was my method prior to moving back to a home office) so that the to/from work commute can be claimed as business use. I regularly used to claim 95% business use, all you have to do is complete a log book every few years.

 

Again - agree to heartily disagree on this one..

 

Either way, I stand by the approach that government policy is desperately needed to help kick start EVs in Australia.

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11 hours ago, blybo said:

As @aussievintage said, there is a reason Australia still love "legacy" vehicles like Landcruiser 79 series 4WDs. We have soo much remote land that users (including the mining industry) still want simple, reliable and easily repairable vehicles. Apart from engine management there is almost zero electronics. The 79 was released in the 80's and I believe here and Africa are the only markets in the world you can get them. They are even dropping the Landcruiser 200 in the USA, as there isn't that much truly remote areas of the USA (excluding Alaska) so these over-engineered vehicles just aren't needed.

Sure, at the moment an ICE AWD is the best option for some, but totally unnecessary for the remaining 80-90%

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“EVs are city cars or a second car only”. Well let’s give a 50kWh Model 3 to a complete novice and tell them to road trip 800km.  Let’s give it to someone’s dad to drive. Not a fan boy. Never touched an EV before. What do you think will happen? This will illustrate why Tesla owners get so snarky with all the critics and nay sayers.  

 

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1 hour ago, Briz Vegas said:

“EVs are city cars or a second car only”. Well let’s give a 50kWh Model 3 to a complete novice and tell them to road trip 800km.  Let’s give it to someone’s dad to drive. Not a fan boy. Never touched an EV before. What do you think will happen? This will illustrate why Tesla owners get so snarky with all the critics and nay sayers.  

 

 

I know what you're trying to say, but I have driven that same route (or very close), and I have driven from Brisbane to Broome via the Alice Springs and the dirt roads in between.   No comparison possible ...

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On 20/04/2021 at 10:52 PM, betty boop said:

Toyota: Why every car on the planet can’t switch to electric power

 

As you would know the car retail industry is locked into a business model where a large component of their income comes from servicing used cars. Even hybrid cars need the same amount of servicing as ICE; but this is not true of EV. Having full EV flood the market would become an enormous disruption to their business model. 

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50 minutes ago, LHC said:

 

As you would know the car retail industry is locked into a business model where a large component of their income comes from servicing used cars. Even hybrid cars need the same amount of servicing as ICE; but this is not true of EV. Having full EV flood the market would become an enormous disruption to their business model. 

not really LHC... my servicing cost of my ICE car(including consumables) was built into purchase cost and is a pittance .. hasn't cost me a cent to service in last 3 years... warranty ends in a month or so... free servicing for another 7 years... overall i think it was $194 a year of cost built in... over 10 years that is a silly tiny sum when compare to what the huge purchase cost of cars are in first place and something i no longer have to worry about.

 

we have done to death this topic in this thread already...

 

electric cars need service too.. electric cars still have cooling systems, steering, suspension, tyres, wiper blades, doors, complex systems on board... heck even motors that need replacing ! 

 

my car has a simple check up once a year... i would expect at the very least the same for an EV...same goes with things like replacing tyres. and such I'd expect the same with an EV... 

 

i'll put it this way ...

 

the car makers are in the car making business ...not the ice car making business or EV car making business... 

 

I dont personally see EVs as a massive disruption for car makers...

 

on the other hand its actually quite a money making opportunity ... a whole new spin on their old game...

 

 

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14 hours ago, Briz Vegas said:

“EVs are city cars or a second car only”. Well let’s give a 50kWh Model 3 to a complete novice and tell them to road trip 800km.  Let’s give it to someone’s dad to drive. Not a fan boy. Never touched an EV before. What do you think will happen? This will illustrate why Tesla owners get so snarky with all the critics and nay sayers.  

 

To be fair though, only 800km and you need 3 stops of 45 minutes, 40 minutes and 25 minutes to top up on the way.

 

I'd do that trip with just one 15 minute petrol/toilet/coffee/stretch the legs break somewhere past mid distance.

 

Actually I could almost do it on a single tank and those charging times are assuming there's a free charger available wherever you happen to stop.

 

And having a free charging point available when you stop is going to become a real problem with more EV's needing to use them because of the time they need to be plugged in.

 

A petrol station can turn a car around in a few minutes and with multiple pumps that's a real good throughput.

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16 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

I know what you're trying to say, but I have driven that same route (or very close), and I have driven from Brisbane to Broome via the Alice Springs and the dirt roads in between.   No comparison possible ...

?you can’t even get from Melbourne to Sydney via the coast without significant energy conservation and finding tucked away chargers at early adopters place of business 

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17 hours ago, Briz Vegas said:

“EVs are city cars or a second car only”. Well let’s give a 50kWh Model 3 to a complete novice and tell them to road trip 800km.  Let’s give it to someone’s dad to drive. Not a fan boy. Never touched an EV before. What do you think will happen? This will illustrate why Tesla owners get so snarky with all the critics and nay sayers.  

 

Let’s try that on any roads in Oz other than the major transport routes on the east coast 

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