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I will most likely bi amp mine the way greg osborn advises and not to argue with anyone but Aussieadvantage's way seems the goods for me

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Aaaaaaand, we're there:     I'm already smitten tbh.

Here they are with the first layer of sealer applied:       To see them beside what I would consider 'normal' sized floor standers really shows the scale of them!

My setup. Monuments with Elite crossover upgrade.    

4 minutes ago, bonuss said:

I will most likely bi amp mine the way greg osborn advises and not to argue with anyone but Aussieadvantage's way seems the goods for me

Sorry, but Greg does not advise bi-amp.

He advises bi-wire.

That is one  integrated amp or one monoblock per side., where the speaker cable per side has 2 endpoints at the amp side and 4 endpoints at the speaker side.

It is not that easy to see, but this is a picture from his website.

image.png.54a94e5355e09330139d94cf5e26af47.png

That is one red and one black - that plugs into the amp.  2 red and 2 blacks on the speaker side - as ther are 2 inputs on the speaker fior red and 2 inputs for black on the speaker side.

Not an Osborn picture, but this is how it looks at the back of the speaker.

image.png.8cf305b796af1bbd785ed040287f0cf8.png

 

@bonuss google biwiring or shotgun speaker cables and then you will get the idea. 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Jventer said:

Sorry, but Greg does not advise bi-amp.

He advises bi-wire.

That is one  integrated amp or one monoblock per side., where the speaker cable per side has 2 endpoints at the amp side and 4 endpoints at the speaker side.

It is not that easy to see, but this is a picture from his website.

image.png.54a94e5355e09330139d94cf5e26af47.png

That is one red and one black - that plugs into the amp.  2 red and 2 blacks on the speaker side - as ther are 2 inputs on the speaker fior red and 2 inputs for black on the speaker side.

Not an Osborn picture, but this is how it looks at the back of the speaker.

image.png.8cf305b796af1bbd785ed040287f0cf8.png

 

@bonuss google biwiring or shotgun speaker cables and then you will get the idea. 

 

 

My B+W speakers are Bi wired. I have a normal 2 channel main amp. The only difference is I am using 2 speaker cables on each channel and not One cable that goes from 2 wires to 4 wires at the other end. The Eichmann speaker cables have many wires (6 from memory) in each cable internally just to make up the 2 wires at each end. They were made up by eichmann to fit my particular system so might have to be modified or replaced. I suppose in comparison to gregs cables I am wasting a speaker cable but My theory is that the bass terminals at the speaker needs as little as possible resistance in the wiring and a separate cable might be better. It certainly works dam nice.

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29 minutes ago, bonuss said:

My B+W speakers are Bi wired. I have a normal 2 channel main amp. The only difference is I am using 2 speaker cables on each channel and not One cable that goes from 2 wires to 4 wires at the other end. The Eichmann speaker cables have many wires (6 from memory) in each cable internally just to make up the 2 wires at each end. They were made up by eichmann to fit my particular system so might have to be modified or replaced. I suppose in comparison to gregs cables I am wasting a speaker cable but My theory is that the bass terminals at the speaker needs as little as possible resistance in the wiring and a separate cable might be better. It certainly works dam nice.

That's the approach recommended by Marantz in the manual for my amp, using one of the two pairs of speaker terminals for each cable.

Osborn's method effectively uses four cables, it's just that at one end the cables are twisted together - so it's the same as if you connect the two cables at one speaker outlet on the amp. Maybe you do, maye you don't.

 

The usual argument against biwiring is that you should use one "better" (ie. expensive audiophile) cable per channel rather than two cheaper ones. This presupposes that the more expensive cable is really better. I've probably just opened a large economy size tin marked "worms" now, cue the next argument....

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35 minutes ago, bonuss said:

My B+W speakers are Bi wired. I have a normal 2 channel main amp. The only difference is I am using 2 speaker cables on each channel and not One cable that goes from 2 wires to 4 wires at the other end. The Eichmann speaker cables have many wires (6 from memory) in each cable internally just to make up the 2 wires at each end. They were made up by eichmann to fit my particular system so might have to be modified or replaced. I suppose in comparison to gregs cables I am wasting a speaker cable but My theory is that the bass terminals at the speaker needs as little as possible resistance in the wiring and a separate cable might be better. It certainly works dam nice.

All good, the principle remains the same - you connect 2 cables (several wires) at one red and one black output on the amp side and then some wires at each speaker post  - that is bi- wiring.

(Bi-amping is when you use more than one amp - as in one amp to say run woofers and one amp to run mids and  tweeters. ) You have 2 speaker cables whilst many of us use one cable where the two cables are part of the one cable.  

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2 hours ago, Jventer said:

All good, the principle remains the same - you connect 2 cables (several wires) at one red and one black output on the amp side and then some wires at each speaker post  - that is bi- wiring.

(Bi-amping is when you use more than one amp - as in one amp to say run woofers and one amp to run mids and  tweeters. ) You have 2 speaker cables whilst many of us use one cable where the two cables are part of the one cable.  

So I can still bi wire an  Osborn speaker  from a monoblock I gather. None of this other fancy stuff lol

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7 hours ago, bonuss said:

So I can still bi wire an  Osborn speaker  from a monoblock I gather. None of this other fancy stuff lol

Yes ?

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17 hours ago, speedgod66 said:

Your room will easily accommodate the Monuments -Unfortunately I have not heard a pair since the Focal drivers stopped being used. They sounded tremendous and were a huge step up from Epitome. The new drivers are well regarded -but do they have that sense of dynamic ease that the Focal drivers had ? To me that was one of the impressive points of those Monuments 

 

 

I've got a pair of Epitome reference elites being made and I'm committed to the choice (my bank account partially chose for me).

 

I'm curious to know what they're missing from the Monuments please?

 

I'm moving up from a little two way pair of speakers so am still expecting a slight uptick in sound ??

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59 minutes ago, realysm42 said:

 

 

I've got a pair of Epitome reference elites being made and I'm committed to the choice (my bank account partially chose for me).

 

I'm curious to know what they're missing from the Monuments please?

 

I'm moving up from a little two way pair of speakers so am still expecting a slight uptick in sound ??

 

Not much. 

 

While it was a few years ago now, I owned Epitome Reference (and then added the bass units) and also Monument Reference. The Epitome are very much in the sweet spot. While they can't quite match the scale of the Monuments, they're a much easier speaker to live with (although still big and heavy). 

 

You cannot go wrong dealing with Greg. All of his stuff is great, he's a gentleman to deal with and the value for money is unbeatable I think. Realistically, you need to be spending around triple the price before you get noticeable improvements. 

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58 minutes ago, realysm42 said:

 

 

I've got a pair of Epitome reference elites being made and I'm committed to the choice (my bank account partially chose for me).

 

I'm curious to know what they're missing from the Monuments please?

 

I'm moving up from a little two way pair of speakers so am still expecting a slight uptick in sound ??

Congratulations.

I’m not sure you really want to know!

 

The current range may be a bit different. From the time I got my Eclipse speakers - the crossovers are made to a more exacting standard meaning a bit more clarity. The larger bass drivers distort less, making for improvements in the reproduction of acoustic space. So better solo violin... and when set up properly in a big enough space the Monuments get that sense of orchestral scale that most other speakers don’t.


The Epitome is a great speaker and works well in more rooms. Why worry?

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1 hour ago, realysm42 said:

 

 

I've got a pair of Epitome reference elites being made and I'm committed to the choice (my bank account partially chose for me).

 

I'm curious to know what they're missing from the Monuments please?

 

I'm moving up from a little two way pair of speakers so am still expecting a slight uptick in sound ??

 

You will not be disappointed.  I regularly listen to a system with the Epitome tower ref elite version.  They are wonderful speakers.  My own older Eclipse are also very good, but there is just a little bit more of that goodness in the Epitomes.

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Thanks all for your replies; I'm getting my Osborn fix vicariously through you all until I get mine!

 

I realise I named the speaker incorrectly, I'm getting the epitome tower reference elites (I'm new to all this Osborn stuff ?). So this is the model with 2x 10" bass drivers.

 

@Eggcup the Dafter no worry here! I love this hobby and find the differences between this and that fascinating.

Edited by realysm42
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10 minutes ago, realysm42 said:

 

 

I realise I named the speaker incorrectly, I'm getting the epitome tower reference elites (I'm new to all this Osborn stuff ?). So this is the model with 2x 10" bass drivers.

 

 

 

You can live without FOMO.

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21 hours ago, realysm42 said:

 

 

I've got a pair of Epitome reference elites being made and I'm committed to the choice (my bank account partially chose for me).

 

I'm curious to know what they're missing from the Monuments please?

 

I'm moving up from a little two way pair of speakers so am still expecting a slight uptick in sound ??

The large Focal drivers he was using at the time were just fabulous - I am not a small speaker person . To me there is something missing in many small speakers .We compromise on a speakers size so we don't upset neighbours or the wife etc then convince yourself your not missing anything. Have no delusions good big speakers sound brilliant . I am sure you will enjoy your speakers ,compared to anything else in the market at anywhere near the price point its not even close. The B&W 800 has 2 10 inch drivers and is near $50 k so you are definitely in the big league of speakers 

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I use townshend bars under my current speakers and I used to have Monuments but at the time never tried the Townshends under those. In my room I would suspect they would be great under Monuments or Epitomes. My room has a suspended wooden floor so has a big impact for me and stops the floor from becoming a big resonator.  Others have said it can halp even on a slab. Considering the cost of these its worth figuring out how much they improve things.

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2 hours ago, realysm42 said:

Do any of you have experience with how your Osborns perform with Townshend seismic platforms?

 

2 hours ago, frednork said:

I use townshend bars under my current speakers and I used to have Monuments but at the time never tried the Townshends under those. In my room I would suspect they would be great under Monuments or Epitomes. My room has a suspended wooden floor so has a big impact for me and stops the floor from becoming a big resonator.  Others have said it can halp even on a slab. Considering the cost of these its worth figuring out how much they improve things.

I have no idea how well they work or not. @darren69 had some and the rubber perished.  The Townsends and the Isoacoustics are expensive. As @frednork says it depends on your floor and the improvement per dollar. I note that I have never seen Greg doing a memo with spikes or footers. I do note that Mike has his ML5's on footers.

 

Seismic platforms/seismic footres, isolation whatever is designed to cancel the vibration in the piece of equipment and hence are based on the weight.  My simple approach is that my speakers on carpet on a concete floor are OK. They do weigh more than 70 kg.s so happy to live with whatever vibration is left.

 

The other problem with adding footers etc is that the speakers are then higher. Tweeters should be at ear height (?) so that then potentially cause issues - do you tilt the speakers forwards or increase seating height?

 

Maybe others can chime in.

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1 hour ago, Jventer said:

 

I have no idea how well they work or not. @darren69 had some and the rubber perished.  The Townsends and the Isoacoustics are expensive. As @frednork says it depends on your floor and the improvement per dollar. I note that I have never seen Greg doing a memo with spikes or footers. I do note that Mike has his ML5's on footers.

 

Seismic platforms/seismic footres, isolation whatever is designed to cancel the vibration in the piece of equipment and hence are based on the weight.  My simple approach is that my speakers on carpet on a concete floor are OK. They do weigh more than 70 kg.s so happy to live with whatever vibration is left.

 

The other problem with adding footers etc is that the speakers are then higher. Tweeters should be at ear height (?) so that then potentially cause issues - do you tilt the speakers forwards or increase seating height?

 

Maybe others can chime in.

Mine don't add much

 

IMG_20210321_122853.jpg

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So, erm... does anyone have pictures of their Osborn gear? There's a bizarre lack of them online. IDK if you get this, but when I've ordered something I become increasingly impatient and want to read more about the product / see more of it in the build up.

 

I'm especially curious to know if anyone has a pair in Blackwood veneer? This is what I've requested (satin finish) as it will match my hi fi rack. Now my whole system will be black / Aussie blackwood, I'll grab some pictures when it lands.

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1 hour ago, daviddsailor said:

My setup. Monuments with Elite crossover upgrade.

 

 

IMG_20210228_215709[1].jpg

 

Nice, the Monuments have always sounded great to me. I would be very interested about your view about the differences you experienced with the Elite upgrade (I have never heard any that have been upgraded).

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I have had the pleasure of hearing David’s monuments 

??

david looks like you have moved them a bit?

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Smooth timber panel under each speaker and felt pads stuck underneath each speaker corner allow speakers to be pushed/shoved sideways so screen can be viewed from side seats. These speakers have been moved  so many times before I settled on the present positions and imaging is now very much improved. As for the Elite crossover upgrade it was money well spent. Big improvement in dynamics, clarity and imaging. They were good before the upgrade but even better now. It has taken me eleven years of stuffing around to get the best out of these speakers and only recently I realised it wasn't about the connected equipment but all about placement in the room. To get any more out of them I'm going to need a different room. Unfortunately that's not gunna happen at my time of life (unless I win Tattslotto).

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These Epitome Reference towers are 12 months old, still playing with placement/toe-in and a couple of other things.  I haven't heard the Elite upgrade yet, something on the list for this year regarding the Epitomes.  I expect these to be my end game speakers, will work on upgrading the digital and analogue sources this year, see where that lands me -

 

3.thumb.jpg.c630516885f91f36378394f302d5706c.jpg

 

 

These Eclipses used to be where the Epitomes are, so serving HT duties with the C5 and other Osborn effects speakers in a dedicated room.  The HT room has been dormant for 6 months, only just collected new amps/8805 yesterday, so should be up and running soon.  I had Greg upgrade the Eclipse tweeters to match the new C5, so keen to hear them in full swing -

 

1.thumb.jpg.78e7addd909b76e920e1e7bfbd0e6f04.jpg

 

 

 

 

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This is a photo of my Epitome tower references that I used to own (gloss bubinga).  This setup was early in my audio addiction and I had a Consonance 15th anniversary amp. I then changed to AM music 805M amps and Consonance Linear 1 preamp, which was a significant improvement.

 

The only item remaining is the equipment rack!

 

IMG_1007.thumb.JPG.29e8d6acbd18459e8a835d2749c29b93.JPG

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1 hour ago, Whites said:

This is a photo of my Epitome tower references that I used to own (gloss bubinga).  This setup was early in my audio addiction and I had a Consonance 15th anniversary amp. I then changed to AM music 805M amps and Consonance Linear 1 preamp, which was a significant improvement.

 

The only item remaining is the equipment rack!

 

IMG_1007.thumb.JPG.29e8d6acbd18459e8a835d2749c29b93.JPG

He he,these would be the ones residing in my bedroom setup?

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Now we're talking, thanks for sharing gents.

 

@Whites what did you move on to, out of curiousity?

 

@Kaynin how does your Luxman handle them?

 

@daviddsailor I can't make out what you drive your monuments with?

 

Are any of the epitome tower owners based in Melbourne? IDK if it's feasible, but once mine are set up it would be fascinating to hear other examples, especially where people have had extensive time to get them positioned perfectly.

Edited by realysm42
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@realysm42 I now have Hulgich Ella Mk2. Unfortunately with my room layout I have speakers across the short side, if I could have the speakers in other direction I would still have the Osborns.

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1 minute ago, Whites said:

@realysm42 I now have Hulgich Ella Mk2. Unfortunately with my room layout I have speakers across the short side, if I could have the speakers in other direction I would still have the Osborns.

Hulgich make very pretty speakers, I've never heard them though; judging by your comment are they a compromise?

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@realysm42 My comment relates to that I had bass issues at louder volumes which I don’t think would have been an issue if speakers were facing other direction as room is a couple of metres longer.  

The Hulgich are great speakers and I now don’t have any bass issues.

We are lucky in Aus to have several great homegrown speaker manufacturers.

 

Edited by Whites
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15 minutes ago, realysm42 said:

Hulgich make very pretty speakers, I've never heard them though; judging by your comment are they a compromise?


Hulgich make beautiful speakers and should always be closely looked at.  They are well balanced performers that do a lot really well.

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27 minutes ago, realysm42 said:

 

@Kaynin how does your Luxman handle them?


I bought the Luxman purely because I’d lusted after one for a long time, so not trialled first.  The Epitome’s are easy to drive, so headroom is not an issue - but I chose not to go the Class A Luxman’s because, from time to time, I like to listen really f’ing loud.  The bass is well controlled by the amp.  I’ve been very impressed so far.

 

I do want to do an A/B with some of Greg’s amps at some stage.  That will decide if it’s a keeper.

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Sometimes, you do just have to turn it up eh? I've marvelled at how well my little Galans manage volume, very impressive. Although there's simply no replacement for displacement, I can't wait to hear what the towers are capable of - I imagine they can go louder than is comfortable yet remain composed (if the amp is capable)?

 

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought class A amps were always at 100%, so wouldn't get hotter when we turn up the volume - have I missed something? My amps are class A up to ~25 Watts.

 

 

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22 hours ago, realysm42 said:

 

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought class A amps were always at 100%, so wouldn't get hotter when we turn up the volume - have I missed something? My amps are class A up to ~25 Watts.

 

 

That’s also my understanding, my Pass Labs amp draws 375 watts, its music rating is only 30 watts.

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23 hours ago, realysm42 said:

 

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought class A amps were always at 100%, so wouldn't get hotter when we turn up the volume - have I missed something? My amps are class A up to ~25 Watts.

 

 

Class A runs actually a bit cooler with music playing. No music playing means stationary DC across the tube/transistor. AC eg. music takes some of the dissipated power away from the tube/transistor and off loads it further down the chain so to speak.

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10 hours ago, Ihearmusic said:

Class A runs actually a bit cooler with music playing. No music playing means stationary DC across the tube/transistor. AC eg. music takes some of the dissipated power away from the tube/transistor and off loads it further down the chain so to speak.

 

Well what really happens is that the AC signal  causes the output device to move sinusoidally away from the set operating point, up and down the load line - which is largely a straight line.  The max power dissipation curve is a curve which bends away from the load line.  Hence, as the actual operating point of the output device follows the loadline, it moves away from the max power curve at the end of it's excursions.

 

f1VFhgx2tHSJPjecb5Q_a5y2AceBdKjoeCiynoG0

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10 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

Well what really happens is that the AC signal  causes the output device to move sinusoidally away from the set operating point, up and down the load line - which is largely a straight line.  The max power dissipation curve is a curve which bends away from the load line.  Hence, as the actual operating point of the output device follows the loadline, it moves away from the max power curve at the end of it's excursions.

 

f1VFhgx2tHSJPjecb5Q_a5y2AceBdKjoeCiynoG0

I can not open your attachment.

Anyway for a simpler explanation of my previous post....

With no signal all the power is dissipated by the output tube/ transistor.

With a signal applied most of the power is dissipated by the tube the rest is converted to AC and so converted to signal power to drive the speakers.

 

 

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On 27/03/2021 at 7:18 PM, aussievintage said:

image.png.d3101122674bba4dc1a7c472c2ab1152.png

That is better.

Well the maximum dissipation curve is a theoretical concept for the designer. A guide to work withing the SOA ( safe operating area).

It is not a definitive end point that the tube cannot operate past. So it will not have a bearing under signal level operation. It would however be shorten tube live if the tube would be biased at a level above the red curve. A sinusoidal signal applied with the bias set along the blue load line, has its mean voltage still below the curve.

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