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Chinese / Australian Redgum Amplifier....


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Guest myrantz

Havent you bumped into Pete (Flemo) in Perth audio travels Mario? He is a real good genuine audio enthusiast. Quite well known amongst the WA mob too-no issues there. Check out his posts

I'm guessing Mario was asking about the guy (M. Fitzpatrick) from the blog.. He's in Perth too...   :thumb:

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I must agree with that. To me when I hand over thousands of dollars for a piece of equipment, there's an expectation that I'm buying high quality componentry assembled by highly trained individuals (who earn good money doing so), and that it sounds good (the one thing you can easily verify pre-purchase). So to me cost breakdown is roughly:

1. Cost of raw materials - case and associated tooling, components

2. Cost of assembling ie: production line equipment and labour charges

3. How it sounds vs similarly priced competition

I would not be happy paying big money for cheap components assembled cheaply by average skilled individuals even if it sounds good - a piece of equipment done this way should cost less, as all you're really paying for is the sound, not nigh cost local labour or high cost componentry. Warranty on the cheap parts used or not, it certainly doesn't float my boat. Each to their own though of course.

Edited by CryptiK
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I don't have an objection to Chinese made amplifiers sold cheaply using cheap parts, but why pay for a a Croquembouche when you should be paying for Profiteroles? :)

 

Because you are getting Croquembouche, backed by a 7 years warranty.

 

Below is a pictures of a AU$10K amplifier that gets raved about. It uses cheap amplifier chips in parallel.

 

AudioEngineAudiophilespeakersforPC-Keith

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Because you are getting Croquembouche, backed by a 7 years warranty.

 

Below is a pictures of a AU$10K amplifier that gets raved about. It uses cheap amplifier chips in parallel.

 

AudioEngineAudiophilespeakersforPC-Keith

Can't see the picture but the point remains.

 

If I may say so, your amplifiers are renowned for their great hand crafted quality made in Australia using only the very best parts and at very reasonable prices.

I'm very sure you wouldn't be outsourcing to China any time soon and still waving the Oz flag with a drop in component quality.

 

Then it wouldn't be something special.

 

Your own product is just that. :)

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Guest rondine

 

If I may say so, your amplifiers are renowned for their great hand crafted quality made in Australia using only the very best parts and at very reasonable prices.

I'm very sure you wouldn't be outsourcing to China any time soon and still waving the Oz flag with a drop in component quality.

 

Then it wouldn't be something special.

 

Your own product is just that. :)

..........brown nosing may get you somewhere.......or nowhere

ron

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Guest fordgtlover

So, someone can sell a set of four $3 resistor for $1,000 and there's a bunch of people who claim that that they can hear 'some' difference, and SNA rallies to argue that the manufacturer should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

Yet, an Aussie amp company with a reputation for making reliable and really good sounding amps is discovered to use some cheap Chinese parts and all of a sudden it's a travesty. I could understand the outcry if there was a high failure rate and no after sales support, but that's simply not the case.

 

The catch-cry at SNA is usually that it's all about how it sounds? 

 

Clearly there's some subtlety that I'm not seeing here.

 

EDIT : - the page in the OP has been removed - for the best I say.

Edited by fordgtlover
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EDIT : - the page in the OP has been removed - for the best I say.

 

 

Sorry Mr Ford, but I see the removal as a denial of free speech.

This has nothing to do with the merits ( or otherwise ) of varying opinions expressed here, but if things like this cannot be discussed, what is the point of a forum about audio products?

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So, someone can sell a set of four $3 resistor for $1,000 and there's a bunch of people who claim that that they can hear 'some' difference, and SNA rallies to argue that the manufacturer should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

Yet, an Aussie amp company with a reputation for making reliable and really good sounding amps is discovered to use some cheap Chinese parts and all of a sudden its a travesty. I could understand the outcry if there was a high failure rate and no after sales support, but that's simply not the case.

 

The catch-cry at SNA is usually that it's all about how it sounds? 

 

Clearly there's some subtlety that I'm not seeing here.

 

EDIT : - the page in the OP has been removed - for the best I say.

 

 

Superb post :thumb:

 

It would seem the naysayers have not heard the amps, just spreading innuendo.  

 

I really wonder what the wholesale cost of the resistors Red Gum use based on what they perceive sound good and the trendy resistors.  Probably less than a few $$ ?

Edited by turntable
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Guest fordgtlover

Sorry Mr Ford, but I see the removal as a denial of free speech.

This has nothing to do with the merits ( or otherwise ) of varying opinions expressed here, but if things like this cannot be discussed, what is the point of a forum about audio products?

 

Presumably it would only be a denial of free speech if he was forced to take it down. I have have no idea why he took it down. Perhaps in response to this thread, but that's just me speculating.

 

As to why or why not things can or can't be discussed on SNA, that's a job for Marc and the mods and I'll happily leave it in their capable hands. 

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Sorry Mr Ford, but I see the removal as a denial of free speech.

This has nothing to do with the merits ( or otherwise ) of varying opinions expressed here, but if things like this cannot be discussed, what is the point of a forum about audio products?

 

 

The so called tech expert has pulled it from his own web site.  How is that denial of free speech?

Edited by turntable
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I agree with Phantom , if the article was taken down because the author was threatened with legal action,  it would be a blow for free speech.

 

I for one would not be paying $2600 for an amp that used cheap parts no matter how good it sounded. I feel that the amp should be priced accordingly otherwise why offshore production to China if not to pass on the savings to the consumer. Esp when there are other brands which use better parts (and I am not talking about boutique audiophile ones) , are actually made in Australia, but sound just as good.Perhaps for even less. But that is just me.

 

The author of that website was right, the internals and case work of the amp IMO looks like something sold by Jaycar/Altronics - not something a High End manufacturer would be proud to sell.

Edited by Sir Triode
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The so called tech expert has pulled it from his own web site.  How is that denial of free speech?

 

Because presumably, if the author stands by his claims and was then in some way prevailed upon to remove the article then it is precisely a denial of free speech.

I am sure he didn't ( reluctantly ) write it only for it to mysteriously disappear after an online forum discussion.

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I must agree with that. To me when I hand over thousands of dollars for a piece of equipment, there's an expectation that I'm buying high quality componentry assembled by highly trained individuals (who earn good money doing so), and that it sounds good (the one thing you can easily verify pre-purchase). So to me cost breakdown is roughly:

1. Cost of raw materials - case and associated tooling, components

2. Cost of assembling ie: production line equipment and labour charges

3. How it sounds vs similarly priced competition

 

 

You've missed R&D. Most people do. 

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I really think you need to back off mate. You are very intense and just plain out of order. I have no idea why you feel the need to come out and have a crack FFS. Please do not communicate with me at any level again on this forum. I have no interest you in any level either, but that's just me.

Demolition ex-spurt, specialising in bridges.

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Havent you bumped into Pete (Flemo) in Perth audio travels Mario? He is a real good genuine audio enthusiast. Quite well known amongst the WA mob too-no issues there. Check out his posts

 

There is nothing in the least untoward about this post as I see it either. A question is asked and facts are presented. What, so the facts dont suit someones aspirations? The facts are the facts as far as this particular amp is concerned and that is it. Its not complicated really

 

Alan

I know Flemo well had a cup of coffee with him a few times always refuses to have a beer with me i guess he don't like me that much but its ok,(M. Fitzpatrick) from the blog is who i was asking about.

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I'm sure that the competition (with amps sporting better parts) have to field that cost into their designs as well. 

 

Of course, just that a lot of people expect that finished goods should cost no more than the sum of the parts and some token labour. 

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Hi Guys,

Thanks for the call to arms, but in this day and age, methinks a Masterchef approach better explains how REDGUM makes decisions about its designs and thus the components used. Shall we say ... the proof is in the pudding.

 

The pivotal notion in that piece is "what determines quality?". But how to explain the effect of the word "determines"? Back to Masterchef for inspiration ...

 

A Croquembouche is made of flour and water. But so is bread.  (And with no need for military-grade flour. ) Such ordinary ingredients would not excite anyone to presume such a delightful dessert as a Croquembouche could be achievable.

 

 

A link to a fuller reply will appear, but as REDGUM's designer is currently in ShenZhen, teaching the Chinese to make real REDGUMs (as a replacement of our Sonofa'GUM range), his texted reply is ...

 

REDGUM has NEVER claimed to use 'trendy' branded components - this only adds expense, without results.

As a engineering rule we have always used the cheapest components best suited for the required task.

Even our original brochures show close up pictures of the internals, and those non-expensive brands are readily discernible.

Yes, we offer 7 year warranty (which is very seldom needed) and almost 100% of our amplifiers are still working up to 20 years later. They are simply laid out and so, easy to repair.

They are quiet, dynamic and involving.

The proof is in the pudding!

 

 

In fact, very soon you all can be the judge of a new version of our quality. "Stay Tuned ..." for REDGUM's big Birthday!

 

Cheers,

Lindy Gerber

Promotions Manager

REDGUM Audio P/L

 

 

 

 

Many thnxs for the response Lindy.

 

Here is my $.02 cents of worth in this thread:

 

There is a real bad stigma in reference to Jaycar and and Altronic components on many threads and it seems to give them a real bad reputation.  When I was a teenager completing a Diploma of Electronics, Dick Smith, Tandy Electronics, Radio  Parts Electronics Australia and a few like Stwart Electronics were some of the main Electronics stores you can buy over the counter electronic components.  As time progresses many of these stores such as Dick Smith changed there business model and less and less over the counter components were available.  Now days if you are to get genuine Semis I dont use Jaycar or Altronic I use RS Components or E14, both are on line and deliver to your door step.  In saying that for most of my electronic career to access components very quickly for replairs on PSU and other pcb repairs during working hours I have always used Jaycar and Altronics,  what we seem to forget is that they are the only places to access over the counter components in Melbourne.  In 100% of the cases I have used Altronics and Jaycar, I have never had a failure regardless of whether its a Through the hole resistor or any of the capacitors or Semis, and in most cases where I have made a repair it has last the life of that product.  An example is replacing a few resistors with the metal film type that was supplied from Jaycar repaired a PSU in a machine that went over the end of life of 5million copies and was still operational after 5 years.  Since out of high school I have built many projects that were supplied via Jaycar and Altronics, all have worked from 1st switch on and some are still working to this day that are older than my son who has turned 24. 

 

 

Its easy to be a critic even as an experience technician but what you see here in this amp is what is expected in from the mid 80s to late 90s:

 

 

The resistors are standard metal film resistors, that were possible the best available in this era, they are graded as 1-2% tolerance and are 1/10 the electrical noise of a standard carbon or any carbon type.   I wont mentioned any names but most beautique amp manufacturers that were charging $5K plus will be using these resistors in this era if your lucky.

 

The caps that are mentioned that are rated at 85 degree C,  well up until the late 90s you couldnt  get caps like you can get now where there is plenty of manufacturers extending there range to 105 degree C.

 

The Exicon devices are dual dielateral mosfets on the same TO3  package.  Redgum would be foolish to use fakes, Aussie amps is using Exicon devices but in the more modern plastic package.

 

For the volume pot and control, well that was the best you can do from that era, in todays standard there are a lot more ways to minimised that mechanical contact resistance.

pop open the bonnet of your amps and have a peak...

 

 

Tell me and point to me in the right direction of what you expect to get in this price range and what you want you the money, even if you pay top dollar for the top of there range what are you expecting?  Because  I have been to the last year Melbourne HiFi show and seeing the top of the range  Yamaha components in bits, let me tell you from a DIY perspective I was totally surprise in what you get.......

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I must agree with that. To me when I hand over thousands of dollars for a piece of equipment, there's an expectation that I'm buying high quality componentry assembled by highly trained individuals (who earn good money doing so), and that it sounds good (the one thing you can easily verify pre-purchase). So to me cost breakdown is roughly:

1. Cost of raw materials - case and associated tooling, components

2. Cost of assembling ie: production line equipment and labour charges

3. How it sounds vs similarly priced competition

I would not be happy paying big money for cheap components assembled cheaply by average skilled individuals even if it sounds good - a piece of equipment done this way should cost less, as all you're really paying for is the sound, not nigh cost local labour or high cost componentry. Warranty on the cheap parts used or not, it certainly doesn't float my boat. Each to their own though of course.

 

 

You forgot to mention design.

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