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Chinese / Australian Redgum Amplifier....


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So, someone can sell a set of four $3 resistor for $1,000 and there's a bunch of people who claim that that they can hear 'some' difference, and SNA rallies to argue that the manufacturer should be gi

Hi Guys, Thanks for the call to arms, but in this day and age, methinks a Masterchef approach better explains how REDGUM makes decisions about its designs and thus the components used. Shall we say .

Given the seven year warranty offered..................what parts they use are of little consequence if the sound is good.



Happy Anzac day.

The post heading seems to say most here inferring Redgum amps are Chinese made?

Considering these Redgum amps can be almost 15 years old, the so called techie seemed not to even ask the customer of its age. Is this representative of current production?

If all the parts are as bad as the tech says, Redgum reliability would be poor or is he just complaining they are cheap?

Do Redgum amps have a history of reliability issues? I have not heard of any but that does not mean much.

Redgum give a 7 year warranty which seems excellent.

How does it sound?

How does it sound compared to similar priced units?

Edited by turntable
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Not good news at all.  

 

And yet, Redgum offer a 7 year warranty, one of the longest warranties around.  How can they make that work if the parts are cheap-and-nasties?

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Interesting read, and wonder Redgum will ever response to the article. 

I somehow doubt Linda from Redgum would reply as Redgum per se are hard to contact. But maybe someone could email the link to her and see if she's forth coming. I knew the SonofaGum was a Chinese built amp and they readily admit it but not the other amps in their range.

 

@Cafad: Jeff you still got thos 175 monos? If you have why don't you lift the lid and take some pics of what you find?

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They don't hide the fact that the Sonofa'GUM is made in china, it's also discontinued.

 

Now I'm not a expert in any degree of stuff thats in amps, but this is a image from the inside of one I found on a google search. is it exactly the same or is it possible the one in the article could be a fake to start with? Just a question as I have no idea, but the website definitely says these are made in australia

 

post-139206-0-04314900-1398381655_thumb.

 

 

 

 

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They don't hide the fact that the Sonofa'GUM is made in china, it's also discontinued.

 

Now I'm not a expert in any degree of stuff thats in amps, but this is a image from the inside of one I found on a google search. is it exactly the same or is it possible the one in the article could be a fake to start with? Just a question as I have no idea, but the website definitely says these are made in australia

 

attachicon.gif1.jpg

 

https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Country%20of%20origin%20claims.pdf

 

country of origin claims do have requirements as per trade practices law,

 The general country of origin test

General country of origin claims may include statements like: Made in Australia; Australian Made or Manufactured/Assembled/Built in Australia.

To qualify for this defence the goods must have been substantially transformed in the country of origin being claimed; and 50 per cent or more of the costs to produce or manufacture the goods must have occurred in that country.

 

 What does substantial transformation mean?

The provisions define substantial transformation as: A fundamental change ... in form, appearance or nature such that the goods existing after the change are new and different goods from those existing before the change. This means that simple treatments or processing such as repackaging or mere assembly are not likely to qualify an otherwise imported good for the ‘Made in Country of origin’ claim.

be aware "made in australia" isnt as stringent as "product of australia" for instance

am sure redgum have done their due dilligence to appropriately label to comply with australian laws...

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The post heading seems to say most here inferring Redgum amps are Chinese made?

 

 

I didn't infer anything with the heading, I have no interest in this company's products at any level.  I merely posted the article out interest, make of it as you chose. 

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redgumsonofagum5500_4.jpg

 

 

Considering this photo is not the amp in question, I am not sure about your motives, especially coming from a mod.

 

The amp in question clearly says made in Australia in Redgum website

 

http://redgumaudio.com/CurrentPromotion/etm/rgi120.html

 

 

To me seems to be very in Australian on Anzac day

Edited by turntable
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I didn't infer anything with the heading, I have no interest in this company's products at any level.  I merely posted the article out interest, make of it as you chose. 

 

 

You clearly have zero interest in Redgum with Chinese as the first word of your post of an Australian company.  :mad:

 

I also have zero interest, however I would not post an intentially provocative heading., but that is just me.

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Considering this photo is not the amp in question, I am not sure about your motives, especially coming from a mod.

 

The amp in question clearly says made in Australia in Redgum website

 

http://redgumaudio.com/CurrentPromotion/etm/rgi120.html

 

 

To me seems to be very in Australian on Anzac day

 

 

perhaps consider that I posted the picture only to indicate that redgum have had amps made in china before but then clearly label as such. I also went to some length to post the requirements of what "made in australia" consitutes and even went as far as suggesting redgum know what theyre doing

 

"be aware "made in australia" isnt as stringent as "product of australia" for instance

 

am sure redgum have done their due dilligence to appropriately label to comply with australian laws..."

 

so maybe we can get back to discussing the issue rather than jumping to conclusions on peoples motives and play the ball rather than the man ...

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You clearly have zero interest in Redgum with Chinese as the first word of your post of an Australian company.  :mad:

 

I also have zero interest, however I would not post an intentially provocative heading., but that is just me.

I really think you need to back off mate.  You are very intense and just plain out of order.  I have no idea why you feel the need to come out and have a crack FFS.  Please do not communicate with me at any level again on this forum. I have no interest you in any level either, but that's just me.  

Edited by flemo
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Havent you bumped into Pete (Flemo) in Perth audio travels Mario? He is a real good genuine audio enthusiast. Quite well known amongst the WA mob too-no issues there. Check out his posts

 

There is nothing in the least untoward about this post as I see it either. A question is asked and facts are presented. What, so the facts dont suit someones aspirations? The facts are the facts as far as this particular amp is concerned and that is it. Its not complicated really

 

Alan

Edited by aertex
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I dunno. It's not as bad as that guy makes it out to be.

 

The fuel hose linkage is a neat idea ;) Most Japanese amps use some sort of mechanical linkage but the main point is that he keeps the volume control and input switching right where the low level processing is done.

 

If those transistors were fakes they would blow up very quickly and would have a definite reliability issue so this critique is a storm in a tea cup.

 

And aren't ME amps built like this with no solder mask and no silk screening on the pcbs ? Audio Research do this as well. Never understood that myself. Maybe someone else knows the reason ? And the last time I saw a two knob volume control was on a Trevor Lees preamp. It is one of those high end hangovers from the 70's when it was probably hard to source accurate ganged volume controls.

 

The only criticism is that I can't see any relay protection so if one of the output devices shorts out then the speaker will be toasted :(

 

Also a 7 year warranty makes up for any other issues ;)

 

regards

Edited by lemnoc
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I somehow doubt Linda from Redgum would reply as Redgum per se are hard to contact. But maybe someone could email the link to her and see if she's forth coming. I knew the SonofaGum was a Chinese built amp and they readily admit it but not the other amps in their range.

 

@Cafad: Jeff you still got thos 175 monos? If you have why don't you lift the lid and take some pics of what you find?

Would you believe I sent them off to Victoria yesterday?  I've still got a few pics somewhere though, I'll see what I can find.

 

These are pics of one of the RGM175 Monoblocks (circa 2005 model I think), definitely Exicon transistors but a completely different design to the RGi120 mentioned in the article.

post-130663-0-57257800-1398394880_thumb.

post-130663-0-25328900-1398394998_thumb.

No real caps to speak of...

 

I had a brief look under the hood of a SunofaGum a while back and it used the toshiba SA1943/5200's.

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So that amp pictured in the article appears to be at best assembled in Australia from cheap Chinese parts. Pretty disappointing. Would like to hear what redgum have to say and also see pics of recently made amps.

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Hi Guys,

Thanks for the call to arms, but in this day and age, methinks a Masterchef approach better explains how REDGUM makes decisions about its designs and thus the components used. Shall we say ... the proof is in the pudding.

 

The pivotal notion in that piece is "what determines quality?". But how to explain the effect of the word "determines"? Back to Masterchef for inspiration ...

 

A Croquembouche is made of flour and water. But so is bread.  (And with no need for military-grade flour. ) Such ordinary ingredients would not excite anyone to presume such a delightful dessert as a Croquembouche could be achievable.

 

 

A link to a fuller reply will appear, but as REDGUM's designer is currently in ShenZhen, teaching the Chinese to make real REDGUMs (as a replacement of our Sonofa'GUM range), his texted reply is ...

 

REDGUM has NEVER claimed to use 'trendy' branded components - this only adds expense, without results.
As a engineering rule we have always used the cheapest components best suited for the required task.
Even our original brochures show close up pictures of the internals, and those non-expensive brands are readily discernible.

Yes, we offer 7 year warranty (which is very seldom needed) and almost 100% of our amplifiers are still working up to 20 years later. They are simply laid out and so, easy to repair.

They are quiet, dynamic and involving.

The proof is in the pudding!

 

 

In fact, very soon you all can be the judge of a new version of our quality. "Stay Tuned ..." for REDGUM's big Birthday!

 

Cheers,

Lindy Gerber

Promotions Manager

REDGUM Audio P/L

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If those transistors were fakes they would blow up very quickly and would have a definite reliability issue so this critique is a storm in a tea cup.

Quite so. IME, Redgum amps are quite reliable.

And aren't ME amps built like this with no solder mask and no silk screening on the pcbs ?

Depends. The later models (ME200, ME240, ME550-II, ME555) all have solder masking and silk screen printing for component designation. Also, later model preamps also incorporated solder masking and silk screen printing for the power supply PCBs. Not that such things make any difference to sound quality, nor measured performance though.

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Havent you bumped into Pete (Flemo) in Perth audio travels Mario? He is a real good genuine audio enthusiast. Quite well known amongst the WA mob too-no issues there. Check out his posts

I'm guessing Mario was asking about the guy (M. Fitzpatrick) from the blog.. He's in Perth too...   :thumb:

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Given the seven year warranty offered..................what parts they use are of little consequence if the sound is good.

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I don't have an objection to Chinese made amplifiers sold cheaply using cheap parts, but why pay for a a Croquembouche when you should be paying for Profiteroles? :)

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I must agree with that. To me when I hand over thousands of dollars for a piece of equipment, there's an expectation that I'm buying high quality componentry assembled by highly trained individuals (who earn good money doing so), and that it sounds good (the one thing you can easily verify pre-purchase). So to me cost breakdown is roughly:

1. Cost of raw materials - case and associated tooling, components

2. Cost of assembling ie: production line equipment and labour charges

3. How it sounds vs similarly priced competition

I would not be happy paying big money for cheap components assembled cheaply by average skilled individuals even if it sounds good - a piece of equipment done this way should cost less, as all you're really paying for is the sound, not nigh cost local labour or high cost componentry. Warranty on the cheap parts used or not, it certainly doesn't float my boat. Each to their own though of course.

Edited by CryptiK
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I don't have an objection to Chinese made amplifiers sold cheaply using cheap parts, but why pay for a a Croquembouche when you should be paying for Profiteroles? :)

 

Because you are getting Croquembouche, backed by a 7 years warranty.

 

Below is a pictures of a AU$10K amplifier that gets raved about. It uses cheap amplifier chips in parallel.

 

AudioEngineAudiophilespeakersforPC-Keith

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Because you are getting Croquembouche, backed by a 7 years warranty.

 

Below is a pictures of a AU$10K amplifier that gets raved about. It uses cheap amplifier chips in parallel.

 

AudioEngineAudiophilespeakersforPC-Keith

Can't see the picture but the point remains.

 

If I may say so, your amplifiers are renowned for their great hand crafted quality made in Australia using only the very best parts and at very reasonable prices.

I'm very sure you wouldn't be outsourcing to China any time soon and still waving the Oz flag with a drop in component quality.

 

Then it wouldn't be something special.

 

Your own product is just that. :)

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If I may say so, your amplifiers are renowned for their great hand crafted quality made in Australia using only the very best parts and at very reasonable prices.

I'm very sure you wouldn't be outsourcing to China any time soon and still waving the Oz flag with a drop in component quality.

 

Then it wouldn't be something special.

 

Your own product is just that. :)

..........brown nosing may get you somewhere.......or nowhere

ron

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So, someone can sell a set of four $3 resistor for $1,000 and there's a bunch of people who claim that that they can hear 'some' difference, and SNA rallies to argue that the manufacturer should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

Yet, an Aussie amp company with a reputation for making reliable and really good sounding amps is discovered to use some cheap Chinese parts and all of a sudden it's a travesty. I could understand the outcry if there was a high failure rate and no after sales support, but that's simply not the case.

 

The catch-cry at SNA is usually that it's all about how it sounds? 

 

Clearly there's some subtlety that I'm not seeing here.

 

EDIT : - the page in the OP has been removed - for the best I say.

Edited by fordgtlover
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EDIT : - the page in the OP has been removed - for the best I say.

 

 

Sorry Mr Ford, but I see the removal as a denial of free speech.

This has nothing to do with the merits ( or otherwise ) of varying opinions expressed here, but if things like this cannot be discussed, what is the point of a forum about audio products?

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So, someone can sell a set of four $3 resistor for $1,000 and there's a bunch of people who claim that that they can hear 'some' difference, and SNA rallies to argue that the manufacturer should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

Yet, an Aussie amp company with a reputation for making reliable and really good sounding amps is discovered to use some cheap Chinese parts and all of a sudden its a travesty. I could understand the outcry if there was a high failure rate and no after sales support, but that's simply not the case.

 

The catch-cry at SNA is usually that it's all about how it sounds? 

 

Clearly there's some subtlety that I'm not seeing here.

 

EDIT : - the page in the OP has been removed - for the best I say.

 

 

Superb post :thumb:

 

It would seem the naysayers have not heard the amps, just spreading innuendo.  

 

I really wonder what the wholesale cost of the resistors Red Gum use based on what they perceive sound good and the trendy resistors.  Probably less than a few $$ ?

Edited by turntable
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Sorry Mr Ford, but I see the removal as a denial of free speech.

This has nothing to do with the merits ( or otherwise ) of varying opinions expressed here, but if things like this cannot be discussed, what is the point of a forum about audio products?

 

Presumably it would only be a denial of free speech if he was forced to take it down. I have have no idea why he took it down. Perhaps in response to this thread, but that's just me speculating.

 

As to why or why not things can or can't be discussed on SNA, that's a job for Marc and the mods and I'll happily leave it in their capable hands. 

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Sorry Mr Ford, but I see the removal as a denial of free speech.

This has nothing to do with the merits ( or otherwise ) of varying opinions expressed here, but if things like this cannot be discussed, what is the point of a forum about audio products?

 

 

The so called tech expert has pulled it from his own web site.  How is that denial of free speech?

Edited by turntable
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