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I know this @:) al as personally involved in purchasing directly from small manufacturers for close to 30 years now, although at the $100-$300 retail price points.

 

The thing with R&D is with many of these speakers/amps/streamers etc, as you say many are only making new products every 5-8 years. In my industry the collections are revamped every 6 months so the products rarely continue in production long enough to get good returns. I simply can't believe the prices for Flagship models from hi end manufacturers is anything other than marketing BS saying we took this long to perfect it, where in reality they were only putting in a couple of hours a week whilst spending most of their time developing the mainstream models, or OEM models for other brands. In the case of Focal/JBL/B&W etc, they all have house technology which differentiates them from other brands, they don't go re-inventing the wheel with each new model, most of the engineering/development is well established and known inside out.

 

8 minutes ago, andrewp said:

Really liked and agreed with the last posting. A detailed and very believable view point.  I think alot of the margin is or should be aimed at the retailers door step. Ok if they are holding stock then fair comment they too have costs. But.... in alot of cases they dont!

I agree, but retail is retail and they have high rents and high staffing numbers in HiFi in comparison to the # of sales generated.

Putting on my wholesalers hat on I often do get annoyed in my industry when retailers only want to buy 1 pair of shoes from me at a time and then complain about paying a surcharge (which basically covers postage) when their profit will be 5-6 times what mine will be, and I've taken the financial risk of keeping them in my warehouse.

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I love my K2s. A few people who have been here more recently now I have them dialled in to within a inch of their lives would most probably agree how dynamic, and engaging they can be.   And

Unboxed to try at home a pristine pair of S3900s

Indeed a lot of it can be R&D.... but there are also other overheads to recover....and it isnt the same for every product...   cant talk speakers specifically.... but having worked in ma

1 hour ago, rantan said:

@Marc

 

My post is nothing of the sort and I hoped by now you would know I don't do that stuff. It is an honest opinion....................or are they now not permissible?😑

I've come to learn, that a post can be an genuine opinion and a bit of a troll all in one. 😉

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One of the cool things I love about JBL is the continued product support meaning your not left swinging in the breeze in a few years when/if replacement parts are required.

 

Case in point are my 26yo speakers where they still manufacture OEM re-cones and compression diaphragms. Yes the older models are a bit agricultural looking but there built to be easily taken apart and worked on. Carn't say that about to many other manufacturers these days sadly.

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1 hour ago, Satanica said:

I've come to learn, that a post can be an genuine opinion and a bit of a troll all in one. 😉

yup, just look at the Dangers of Cycling thread...🙄

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3 hours ago, :) al said:

 

It was explained to me recently probably the best with toyota ... where its a hard grind to save $1-$2 a car in manufacturing cost.... if you can save $15-$20 a car you go down in history ..... 

Off Topic but...

Mainstream manufactures use as little as 1.25 litres of "wet" paint per car......that's Ecoat ( etch ) primer, sufacer, base colour and clear coat inclusive....

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2 hours ago, blybo said:

I simply can't believe the prices for Flagship models from hi end manufacturers is anything other than marketing BS saying we took this long to perfect it, where in reality they were only putting in a couple of hours a week whilst spending most of their time developing the mainstream models, or OEM models for other brands. In the case of Focal/JBL/B&W etc, they all have house technology which differentiates them from other brands, they don't go re-inventing the wheel with each new model, most of the engineering/development is well established and known inside out.

I am not so sure about that,

 

https://www.audioadvice.com/content/2015/10/29/50-reasons-to-seriously-consider-the-new-bw-800-series/

 

eg the 800 series did have only 8 parts transfer over from the older model 8 years earlier with the other 868 parts being brand new.

 

no ofcourse not I dont suspect there are engineers just dedicated to 800 series for 8 years solid. am sure they have other development involvement with the other series as well. however flagships do play an important part. think of the trickle down there has been from the 800 series even down to the cheapo chip board models at the budget end. 

 

the point is an investment of time effort, R&D does consume and investing over 8 years in it for no return till the speakers start selling then. and who is to know it will be a success then ? they have to put a lot into it to make sure it is indeed quite a step forward and indeed a success. after all its kind fo thing has to keep them in the fore for likely next 8 years ! I remember hearing the top line 800 series back in the 80s, have followed them over the years and have to say the current series is a significant improvement over previous as I have heard one series to next :)

 

I dont know B&Ws financials or investor obligations but I know some family businesses that pay themselves a salary but  invest all their profit back into R&D because it is their future literally.... 

 

And while i dont have insight's into audio manufacturing what I do know for instance is eg my denon flagship AV processor I had....10 years later they havent been able to replicate it. even with might of denon and marantz and its 200 engineers they obviously havent got what takes to develop a successor  (something they did for 2 generations prior) ... at this point in time I cant think of anything on the market coming close to the tech power house this was. only leaves me with the thinking that I'm not sure the audio/AV manufacturing space is all that  lucrative people think it is.

 

11 minutes ago, Tasebass said:

Off Topic but...

Mainstream manufactures use as little as 1.25 litres of "wet" paint per car......that's Ecoat ( etch ) primer, sufacer, base colour and clear coat inclusive....

yep i was in shock in my first day in a car plant when I realised red duco for the then equal top seller aussie family car, entailed gal dip, primer, one coat of red paint(flat) and one coat of clear on top to make it a gloss finish. years later you'll see all those cars with the clear coat peeled off.. .  while others where paint wasnt scrimped on still going around with their pride upheld.... definitely get what pay for ...   I have no doubt its generally also same when comes to speakers

 

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1 hour ago, Marc said:
1 hour ago, yamaha_man said:
I’ll say it again, TAD.

Troll #2

 

Quote

comment with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument

 

 

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Ok if you want to upgrade to a gloss finish it's gonna cost ya an extra 11000 pounds!!![emoji38]
 
WoW for paint!?
Hence why I vinyl wrapped :)
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4 hours ago, yamaha_man said:

I’ll say it again, TAD.

Joe, what did you think about the equivalent JBL's at the hi fi show? The room up the stairs to the left with all the high end valve stuff (sorry, canna remember the brand).

 

Was a lot of glass etc in the room but did you get in there?

 

 

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3 hours ago, joz said:

Ok if you want to upgrade to a gloss finish it's gonna cost ya an extra 11000 pounds!!!😆

 

WoW for paint!?

....ill do it cheaper....😋

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3 hours ago, Darren69 said:

Joe, what did you think about the equivalent JBL's at the hi fi show? The room up the stairs to the left with all the high end valve stuff (sorry, canna remember the brand).

 

Was a lot of glass etc in the room but did you get in there?

 

 

Would like to hear them with my music selection not what they had chosen.

As per the first year with that room, I walked in the walked out soon after.

Suxh a waste of a system.

Hope the vendors are reading this.

THAT ROOMS MUSIC SUCKED! 

Edited by yamaha_man
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4 hours ago, Darren69 said:

Joe, what did you think about the equivalent JBL's at the hi fi show? The room up the stairs to the left with all the high end valve stuff (sorry, canna remember the brand).

 

Was a lot of glass etc in the room but did you get in there?

 

 

 

Melody?

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Guest Hensa

That room at the show left a lasting impression on me and not a good one from a sound perspective. The Melody gear looked amazing but the terrible music that was played and a piercing quality to the sound had me out of there fairly quickly. No doubt that system could have sounded very good but was on a hiding to nothing with that music.

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23 minutes ago, Hensa said:

That room at the show left a lasting impression on me and not a good one from a sound perspective. The Melody gear looked amazing but the terrible music that was played and a piercing quality to the sound had me out of there fairly quickly. No doubt that system could have sounded very good but was on a hiding to nothing with that music.

 

Spot on Hensa.  Just beautiful gear, but man, that music was awful and the system was so loud...now don't get me wrong, I love loud music, but it was piercing...

 

I still hung around looking at the eye candy though...

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9 hours ago, Kaynin said:

 

Melody?

That's the one, thanks mate, went back there in my head and drew a blank. Was walking around but someone had removed the brand name off everything.  :D

 

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all I know is for what I payed for my S4600, nothng was going to come close to that sound and its a sound I like , so Im happy. But in Australia the prices seem a bit inflated compared to the US when talking JBL

 

regarding TAD, arent they both owned by the same company ? do they share any components?

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30 minutes ago, husq2100 said:

all I know is for what I payed for my S4600, nothng was going to come close to that sound and its a sound I like , so Im happy. But in Australia the prices seem a bit inflated compared to the US when talking JBL

 

regarding TAD, arent they both owned by the same company ? do they share any components?

No doubt.

 

Let me know if you tire of them. ;) 

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@husq2100

 

I am closer, I get first dibs on the 4600's.

 

I don't believe Harman has anything to do with TAD nor have they ever. From memory TAD was founded by former JBL engineer Bart Locanthi after Pioneer recruited him.

 

Some of the older TAD monitors looked similar in design and driver aesthetics but they share no common drivers.

 

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23 minutes ago, kelossus said:

@husq2100

 

I am closer, I get first dibs on the 4600's.

 

I don't believe Harman has anything to do with TAD nor have they ever. From memory TAD was founded by former JBL engineer Bart Locanthi after Pioneer recruited him.

 

Some of the older TAD monitors looked similar in design and driver aesthetics but they share no common drivers.

 

Nah, he's ages away, I am only a few hours off now the new highway is open. :D

 

Kel, might be a good GTG coming up in Brissy, watch this space @Wongy

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9 hours ago, kelossus said:

@husq2100

 

I am closer, I get first dibs on the 4600's.

 

I don't believe Harman has anything to do with TAD nor have they ever. From memory TAD was founded by former JBL engineer Bart Locanthi after Pioneer recruited him.

 

Some of the older TAD monitors looked similar in design and driver aesthetics but they share no common drivers.

 

Sorry, brain fart.... i was thinking of Revel 

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  • 2 weeks later...

In the Classifieds there is a pair of 4367 for sale. There was some small discussion about them compared to the 4365. I made some incorrect comments (had it somewhat backwards - memory fail)

 

Here is what Greg Timbers said over on Lansing Forums:

 

"Congratulations to those who have received their 4367's. There are a ton of misconceptions regarding the speakers. i can comment through the DV run after which I was no longer involved. The speaker is essentially similar to a 4365 in overall sound performance. There are some voicing differences partially due to my desires and partially as a result of the hardware used. The 2216Nd has the low TCR wire and is very kicky and dynamic as a result. The 2430 needs to be used an octave below where it is happy (as in the M2) and has an increased amount of 2nd harmonic distortion between 750 Hz and 1500 Hz as a result. It is not horrible, but it is about 10 dB higher than the 476Mg in that range and up to 20 dB higher than the 476Be over the same octave. The increased second comes from the 2430 being a ring radiator with no suspension. It is just difficult for it to move below 1500 Hz. The Mg diaphragm is twice as thick as the Be diaphragm so it resists motion in that range to a degree. The Be has the most freedom to move in the octave at and above crossover so it is the best of the three in that regard. With that said, the 2430 has a very detailed and musical sound and is a fine driver. It is capable of much higher output levels than any of the 476 family and is therefore well suited to Sound Reinforcement and Studio use. There is no silver bullet. With good things come bad things and one has to look at the total set of compromises. The 2430 is also about 1/3 the cost of the 476 precious metal drivers.

The design goal of the 4367 was to equal or surpass the performance of the 4365 in a smaller enclosure and for 1/3 less money! Done and Done. The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.

The system has very nice imaging but it cannot touch any Array in that area because the horn orientation is the wrong direction and the horn is in a wide boxy enclosure. The M2 does better in this regard because the horn is symmetrical in pattern and designed to have a significantly wider coverage pattern. That just can't be done in such a compact horn as those in the 4367 and 4365. BTW, those two horns behave very similarly with neither having a major edge on the other in measured performance. They are not, however interchangeable physically and would require different EQ." 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 02/06/2018 at 9:54 PM, yamaha_man said:

Would like to hear them with my music selection not what they had chosen.

As per the first year with that room, I walked in the walked out soon after.

Suxh a waste of a system.

Hope the vendors are reading this.

THAT ROOMS MUSIC SUCKED! 

Ha ha, yep. I tried to get them to play something else but had a really difficult time getting them to understand, or they were deliberately ignoring me...not sure which?

They obviously didn’t have a clue how to get that system setup well and sounding anything like it should have. Great pity as it’s not everyday you get to hear DD67000’s.

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12 hours ago, skies2clear said:

Ha ha, yep. I tried to get them to play something else but had a really difficult time getting them to understand, or they were deliberately ignoring me...not sure which?

They obviously didn’t have a clue how to get that system setup well and sounding anything like it should have. Great pity as it’s not everyday you get to hear DD67000’s.

At the end of the day I have Ref 1’s at home and can listen to whatever I like whenever I like so no great loss to me but still a shame all the same.

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If I had that sort of money, the TAD's would be my choice over the Everest, for sure, from the tiny little bit I have heard of both. Would need more listening time before purchase I guess, and it's not a problem I'll have any time soon. :D 

 

Only thing with TAD is there is the Evo One (haven't heard, would be interesting) then a big jump up to the Ref 1's, would be great if they had something a bit in-betweeny.

 

But OT.

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5 minutes ago, Darren69 said:

If I had that sort of money, the TAD's would be my choice over the Everest, for sure, from the tiny little bit I have heard of both. Would need more listening time before purchase I guess, and it's not a problem I'll have any time soon. :D 

 

Only thing with TAD is there is the Evo One (haven't heard, would be interesting) then a big jump up to the Ref 1's, would be great if they had something a bit in-betweeny.

 

But OT.

This may be your answer....

D9C26FFB-F4FF-43A7-8680-DB6752D7A4F2.png

7116B950-1ED0-4B48-93BE-5EA95C44DC65.png

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Just now, yamaha_man said:

This may be your answer....

D9C26FFB-F4FF-43A7-8680-DB6752D7A4F2.png

7116B950-1ED0-4B48-93BE-5EA95C44DC65.png

Oh la la!! Well there you go. :D

 

Thank you, will check this out further. Very nice.

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31 minutes ago, Darren69 said:

If I had that sort of money, the TAD's would be my choice over the Everest, for sure, from the tiny little bit I have heard of both. Would need more listening time before purchase I guess, and it's not a problem I'll have any time soon. :D 

 

Only thing with TAD is there is the Evo One (haven't heard, would be interesting) then a big jump up to the Ref 1's, would be great if they had something a bit in-betweeny.

 

But OT.

IMHO, the Everest is not a configuration I would go for even if I liked the sound and could afford. The 2 x 15” drivers side by side is not something I believe would work well in anything other than a really big room. A vertical stack would be better...I think...for me.

 

Had a chance to hear some 4365s the other day and they did sound really good. The 476Mg is a really nice driver.

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2 hours ago, skies2clear said:

IMHO, the Everest is not a configuration I would go for even if I liked the sound and could afford. The 2 x 15” drivers side by side is not something I believe would work well in anything other than a really big room. A vertical stack would be better...I think...for me.

 

 

I tend to Agree--I went with an open mind to listen to the configuration below--having owned JBL Jubals/L100's in the past--and I frankly lasted all

of 5 minutes--sadly it was rather strident and non cohesive Bass--most disappointing-not playing my music did not help either--I'm sure

a better environment  would possible auger well for improvement.

I wandered down to the TAD room-- sorry to say too forward and in ya face for Moi too😉

Willco

 

RMAF 065 R.jpg

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4 hours ago, skies2clear said:

IMHO, the Everest is not a configuration I would go for even if I liked the sound and could afford. The 2 x 15” drivers side by side is not something I believe would work well in anything other than a really big room. A vertical stack would be better...I think...for me.

 

Had a chance to hear some 4365s the other day and they did sound really good. The 476Mg is a really nice driver.

Yes am also a fan of the 4367s but have not been able to land some just yet 

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21 minutes ago, Darren69 said:

Yes am also a fan of the 4367s but have not been able to land some just yet 

They were sounding really good at the 2016 Melb show but none of the JBL stuff was that great last year. No doubt because of setup. It just goes to show how critical it is to getting a good result. Generally much cheaper systems that have been setup well in homes perform far better than most of the demos at hifi shows no matter what the price.

I'd like to get my mits on the M2, but not using the recommended Crown amps to drive them. I like the wave guide idea on them even better than the 4367 type, but hey, a pair of 4367's would be great.

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2 hours ago, Willco said:

I tend to Agree--I went with an open mind to listen to the configuration below--having owned JBL Jubals/L100's in the past--and I frankly lasted all

of 5 minutes--sadly it was rather strident and non cohesive Bass--most disappointing-not playing my music did not help either--I'm sure

a better environment  would possible auger well for improvement.

I wandered down to the TAD room-- sorry to say too forward and in ya face for Moi too😉

Willco

 

RMAF 065 R.jpg

I am very sure the stridency you refer to is not inherent in the speaker though. I've heard other JBL Synthesis gear and it was detailed but smooth and natural. Something was up with that demo last year in Melb.

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2 minutes ago, skies2clear said:

Something was up with that demo last year in Melb.

The crap music would be my starting point, absolute SWILL!!!!

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39 minutes ago, skies2clear said:

They were sounding really good at the 2016 Melb show but none of the JBL stuff was that great last year. No doubt because of setup. It just goes to show how critical it is to getting a good result. Generally much cheaper systems that have been setup well in homes perform far better than most of the demos at hifi shows no matter what the price.

I'd like to get my mits on the M2, but not using the recommended Crown amps to drive them. I like the wave guide idea on them even better than the 4367 type, but hey, a pair of 4367's would be great.

Heaven forbid Crown/(Amcron?) good PA Amps--awful Hi Fidelity ones😡  BJD in Bourke St used to push the 150/300 series ad finitum--the damn Amps

threw our more DC than Music I reckon!

 

Willco

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2 hours ago, skies2clear said:

They were sounding really good at the 2016 Melb show but none of the JBL stuff was that great last year. No doubt because of setup. It just goes to show how critical it is to getting a good result. Generally much cheaper systems that have been setup well in homes perform far better than most of the demos at hifi shows no matter what the price.

I'd like to get my mits on the M2, but not using the recommended Crown amps to drive them. I like the wave guide idea on them even better than the 4367 type, but hey, a pair of 4367's would be great.

Ok, I thought they sounded great last year, haha there you go.

 

I heard about three lines of Fear Of The Dark by Maiden though them and thought, that sounds fantastic but someone changed the song.

 

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