Resolving power cables do they really make a difference

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, Yngvi said:

What are we supposed to be testing exactly ?

The audible significance of a specific mains power cable, vs. a different power cable..

 

1 hour ago, Yngvi said:

 

Does it have a name ?

Audible significance.

 

1 hour ago, Yngvi said:

 

I'm a simple lad, can someone simply tell me how we determine a difference ?

Set up a suitable double blind test. 

 

1 hour ago, Yngvi said:

 

Sounds like it's just our ears with a tea towel wrapped around our eyes.

 

 

Pretty much. 

[davewantsmoore]

54 minutes ago, Yngvi said:

@andyr

 

That reminds me of the last time I went to the doctors,

 

I wasn't feeling great so had a few tests done. The doctor told me I passed all the tests he gave me...  I then wondered about the ones he didn't give me

It's a neat analogy .... but audio signals are only 2 dimensional.    There are lots of cases you would need to test to consider every possible circumstance, although that's not a problem (just inconvenient).

 

By attempting to quantify some sort of "listening test" though ..... we have just narrowed the field of investigation dramatically.    If you played SongX through wire A and wire B, and you heard some difference.....  then all you need to do is play SongX through wire A and B, and capture and compare the result.  Done.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Yngvi said:

Back to my original question, what do we measure to measure a difference in what we hear.

Hearing is a very complicated thing.

 

If you are really only asking how do we compare (let's say) the output of amplifier A, and the output of amplifier B, when we play SongX ..... then you just record the output of the amplifiers and compare them.    You can see the difference, and draw a conclusion.

 

Measurement resolution of an audio signal can be millions (zillions!) of times higher than what your ear can detect.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Yngvi said:

I am stuck at step 4

How to actually perform this step could depend on exactly what your investigation is....   although it would often be simply record the electrical output of the device.

 

Typically what people are saying is:    I compared A and B, with my ears and they sound different.    I would like to know the actual difference between A and B.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 hours ago, Yngvi said:

You may have picked the wrong testers ?

Sure. However, those people were absolutely convinced, beyond any doubt, that their fancy power cables were audibly superior to the $5.00 cable I supplied for comparative testing. Another person may hear a difference. But I very much doubt it. 

[davewantsmoore]

43 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Set up a suitable double blind test. 

 

I don't disagree, but I think it is helpful for a balanced discussion to recognise that this can be difficult and prone to error  (error, which could show either false positives or negatives).

 

If we really want to know what power cords do, we should measure signals inside (or outside) the device as it is infinitely less prone to subjectivity, and uncontrolled variables.

Edited October 3, 2018 by davewantsmoore

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 hours ago, Yngvi said:

I'm curious, what exactly is measured ?

In the case of a mains power lead, the following are the only relevant factors that require testing:

 

* Resistance.

* Contact resistance at each end.

* Possibly, shield quality, if that is a requirement. 

 

2 hours ago, Yngvi said:

 

It's mentioned often.

 

If I wanted to measure the difference can someone tell me what I would need to measure.

* A 'four wire' Ohm meter.

* An isolated millivoltmeter.

 

2 hours ago, Yngvi said:

 

Also, what equipment would I need to do such testing ?

Ideally, one should measure the data at the maximum current that is likely to be encountered (or the maximum current that the cable is rated for). This would normally be 10 Amps @ 230VAC for Australia. 

[frankn]

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

 

Yes I’ve heard all this b4.

 

sales engineer = salesman

customer service engineer = technician.

Production Service Engineer = glorified cleaner! And parts jockey! 

 

I did Circuit Theory 1 & 2 that was part of the COT  Electronics  30yrs ago. The maths I did in those courses I never did in real life or ever in my entire life!   Do you really think that without doing the ground work in higher education that you can be as knowledgeable as a someone who has gain a Degree in Electrical or Electronics Engineering?  It’s like asking would you see a doctor who has the qualification and is registered and License or someone who has a practice in the backstreets calling himself a doctor with no qualification, registration or accreditation.... 

Yes you can by studying outside of school. And experience counted as proxy to formal education. The whole point is/was that you could and many did become registered, professional engineers. 

Its only engineering . 

 

[vivianbl]

1 Because they're the gold standard in sensory testing. This has been discussed dozens of times, so maybe you could search and find out for yourself.

 

2. If you're not interested in DBTs, why not show me the audibly significant differences at the output of the audio device by including the new power cable or conditioner? It's very easy to measure far better than any human can hear, so where are the results from the manufacturers, especially independently corroborated? They don't exist, because neither do the differences due to fancy power cords, and doing said tech tests would only hurt the bottom line of the manufacturers.

 

3. I'm prepared to be swayed by the data. Not anecdotes.

 

 

1. It’s important to not make judgements based on little information or assumptions. I have a long professional background in research and evaluation so I do understand a range of research methods and their strengths and weakness. [emoji6]

 

2. Once again you start with an assumption about my interest or otherwise of DBT!!

It’s because of my understanding of DBT strengths and weaknesses that I posed the question about how you control the variables in the audio area to set up a “gold standard “ DBT.

 

I don’t think “measurement” is “easy”, unless you measure what can be currently measured. You also need to measure what people are hearing/ experiencing from the output device.

 

If people are hearing a difference or not between two cables (or any other item for that matter), the question to ask is why? What is causing that? What explains that? Is it the measured electrical properties of the cable? Is it the test situation itself that influences what we listen to. Are you a believer or non- believer coming into the test?

 

Everyone knows Listening is not a passive process- just the wave frequency entering the ears. It is an active process influenced by numerous factors. Many of these these need to be taken into account in setting up a “gold standard” DBT.

 

I agree with you, however,that we have to be very careful not to be taken in (blindly [emoji6]) by manufacturers claims and their explanations for the claims and spending $ in the wrong place. Everyone has to make cost value and opportunity cost judgements even if they hear a difference in SQ.

 

3. Anecdotes can be used as data. They could also be used to ask the question “why is it so?” What data can we used to explain the phenomenon? [emoji2]

[batou]

2 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

We are discussing MAINS POWER CABLES here. Not capacitors, audio signal leads.

 

As a tech I will always do whatever my client wishes (provided I am not asked to violate basic electrical standards). I have been asked to fit obscenely expensive plugs and cables to equipment. I have complied with those requests. It's the client's money. I suspect that your techs take the same approach. Unlike me, however, they may choose not to explain, in exquisite detail, why a specific request is stupid (like changing mains power cables and/or IEC connectors). 

no, the tech i know is a fellow audiphile.

i know an electronic engineer and electrical engineer. they are both fellow audiophile. 

they enjoy cables too.

infact i bough my first valhalla cable from the electrical engineer.

you find that if you put your textbook aside and start to enjoy music with your ear. you may notice things with your ear that textbook cant explain.

i too study diploma of electronic 20 years ago. textbook only teach you someones theory. it is only right so far because nothing has proven it wrong Yet. doesn't mean it is right. 

Thomas Edison found electricity (dc current). his dc current theory is only right until it is proven wrong by Tesla principle of AC Current, which is much better and beaten Edison theory hands down. what i am trying to say is that the electronic principle that we learned so far is only right because its theory hasnt been proven wrong Just Yet. we are still understanding electronic in its infancy. we havent yet discover nanotechnology. once we reach nanotechnology, you will find all these electronic principle theory obsolete. just as i wasted 10 weeks of my life studying 'fixing crt monitor' 20 years ago. the damned crt is obsolete now! everybody is using flatscreen monitor now.

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by batou

[Eggmeister]

I love HiFi...

 

 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, vivianbl said:

 

1. It’s important to not make judgements based on little information or assumptions. I have a long professional background in research and evaluation so I do understand a range of research methods and their strengths and weakness.

 

2. Once again you start with an assumption about my interest or otherwise of DBT!!

It’s because of my understanding of DBT strengths and weaknesses that I posed the question about how you control the variables in the audio area to set up a “gold standard “ DBT.

 

I don’t think “measurement” is “easy”, unless you measure what can be currently measured. You also need to measure what people are hearing/ experiencing from the output device.

 

If people are hearing a difference or not between two cables (or any other item for that matter), the question to ask is why? What is causing that? What explains that? Is it the measured electrical properties of the cable? Is it the test situation itself that influences what we listen to. Are you a believer or non- believer coming into the test?

 

Everyone knows Listening is not a passive process- just the wave frequency entering the ears. It is an active process influenced by numerous factors. Many of these these need to be taken into account in setting up a “gold standard” DBT.

 

I agree with you, however,that we have to be very careful not to be taken in (blindly ) by manufacturers claims and their explanations for the claims and spending $ in the wrong place. Everyone has to make cost value and opportunity cost judgements even if they hear a difference in SQ.

 

3. Anecdotes can be used as data. They could also be used to ask the question “why is it so?” What data can we used to explain the phenomenon?

 

Great post, vbl.

 

But I suspect that - whilst I certainly believe what you posted - Dave may not.

 

"What data can we use to explain the phenomenon?"  That, to me, is the key ... if you don't know what data you need to measure ... you cannot assemble the appropriate measurement tools.

 

Andy

 

[Assisi]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Measurement resolution of an audio signal can be millions (zillions!) of times higher than what your ear can detect.

@davewantsmoore

 

Agreed.  As you say  "Hearing is a very complicated thing".  Far more complicated than my simple understanding.   However to me it is more than just electronic instruments and measurements.  It is more than just what our ears can detect.  The listening experience is ultimately all about what happens to what our respective ears actually detect and then what happens to that auditory information that is then passed to our brains.  Can the instruments used to undertake the measurements also measure what happens when the auditory information reaches the emotional/feeling parts and then the intelligence/thinking parts of your brain compared to what happens in my brain?  Maybe a brain scan or whatever may show the difference.

 

I predict that the experience will be subtlety but especially and importantly the emotional experience will be different for each of us.  To me that is what audio is all about.

John

[Mendes]

1 hour ago, Yngvi said:

I love HiFi...

 

 

More popcorn .......

[rocky500]

On 11/05/2008 at 11:28 AM, A9X said:

Could someone also please explain how this may be so? I can deal with the tech issues as I'm an EE with RF and broadcast experience.

 

Here is what looks like some technical info with graphs

https://www.essentialsound.com/power-cable-technology.htm

Edited October 3, 2018 by rocky500

[davewantsmoore]

34 minutes ago, Assisi said:

Can the instruments used to undertake the measurements also measure what happens when the auditory information reaches the emotional/feeling parts and then the intelligence/thinking parts of your brain compared to what happens in my brain? 

No, but I don't see how that's relevant to the case being discussed..... where for example, two signals are shown to be the same as each other, but I think they sound different from each other.    The signals are the same, and my subjective evaluation is flawed.

 

[batou]

  1 hour ago, Assisi said:

assisi quote:

"Can the instruments used to undertake the measurements also measure what happens when the auditory information reaches the emotional/feeling parts and then the intelligence/thinking parts of your brain compared to what happens in my brain? "

-------------------------------------------------------------

Assisi, you come from medical background if i am not wrong. almost everything you perceived will be in biological point of view. because this is the area you most familiar with.

 

the electronic engineer here who doesnt believe in cable often try their best to object others point of view by the area they know best. measuring voltage, current, inductance, capacitance,etc. 

to them, these are more precise than human ear can perceive.

 

a computer engineer then come in and start to reason the argument binary against voltage. zeroes (0) and ones (1) because to them. this is the most accurate of measuring data (or sound which in their dictionary is also data).

did you know the song store in your harddrive is made up of 100100100010011100000110 ... etc

 

then come a chemical engineer who say

of course different powercord of different size and material will sound different because no two element is the same in conductivity and resistivity.

any small traces of whatever chemical present in the element will changed the conductivity/resustivity further.

 

so who is right? who is wrong? 

everybody is expert in one specific area of knowledge. it has become a royal rumble here because we got too many expert here with their specific skill and argument.

we are all no more than a 3 year old kid who is trying to see a complete picture but from different keyhole from different angle. everybody sees only specific part of the picture. none are able to see the whole picture.

Edited October 3, 2018 by batou

[rocky500]

My panasonic plasma came standard with a shielded power cable.

Any reason they would go to the expense a shielded power cable?

[MLXXX]

50 minutes ago, batou said:

then come a chemical engineer who say

of course different powercord of different size and material will sound different because no two element is the same in conductivity and resistivity.

any small traces of whatever chemical present in the element will changed the conductivity/resustivity further.

No, I think the chemical engineer would consider the purpose of the cable, and the acceptable range of resistance and current handling capability specified by an electrical engineer for the cable to meet that purpose. The chemical engineer would then consider whether the manufactured cables would be likely to meet the specifications.

The chemical engineer would have no basis for speculating that "of course different powercord of different size and material will sound different". (This is not a cable intended to pass an audio signal. It is a cable intended to supply power. There is no engineering basis on which to assume that the audio signal will differ simply because the power is being delivered to an audio device via a power cord A, rather than a power cord B. )

Unfortunately power cord threads usually lead nowhere, no pun intended.

Edited October 3, 2018 by MLXXX

[Eggmeister]

Lots of healthy discussion which is great. Very respectful which shows maturity of the sna  members involved. No pompous twats.

 

I am still none the wiser about how to measure the difference between power cables and their influence on the sound I hear.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

6 hours ago, rocky500 said:

My panasonic plasma came standard with a shielded power cable.

Any reason they would go to the expense a shielded power cable?

Many products that employ SMPSs (Switch Mode Power Supply/s) produce a large amount of high frequency 'hash'. Much of that hash leaves the product via the mains power lead. The US FTC is quite stringent in it's requirements that electrical products should meet certain requirements as regards the amount of interference produced. For this reason, many products are supplied with either internal and/or external methods of controlling this interference. Usually, this involves the fitting of ferrite toroids around the cable. A shielded mains cable would assist with the reduction of hash from the product. 

 

It has NOTHING to do with hash entering the product. Never has. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

9 hours ago, vivianbl said:

 

1. It’s important to not make judgements based on little information or assumptions. I have a long professional background in research and evaluation so I do understand a range of research methods and their strengths and weakness.

 

2. Once again you start with an assumption about my interest or otherwise of DBT!!

It’s because of my understanding of DBT strengths and weaknesses that I posed the question about how you control the variables in the audio area to set up a “gold standard “ DBT.

 

I don’t think “measurement” is “easy”, unless you measure what can be currently measured. You also need to measure what people are hearing/ experiencing from the output device.

Agreed. HOWEVER, the very first thing to establish is this:

 

Can ANYONE hear a difference between two, properly terminated, correctly functioning mains power leads. Until that can be established there cannot be a measurement criteria established. 

 

At NO TIME, has any person been able to prove that they can hear a difference under proper test conditions. 

 

 

9 hours ago, vivianbl said:

 

If people are hearing a difference or not between two cables (or any other item for that matter), the question to ask is why?

Again, no. The first question is: 'Can anyone reliably hear a difference between two, correctly terminated and functioning mains power leads?' 

 

People CLAIM to hear a difference, but at no time in the whole history of human-kind, has anyone been able to prove that there is an audible difference between two, properly functioning mains power leads. Not once. Not ever. 

 

9 hours ago, vivianbl said:

 

 

What is causing that? What explains that? Is it the measured electrical properties of the cable? Is it the test situation itself that influences what we listen to. Are you a believer or non- believer coming into the test?

There is no point in asking non-believers in such a test. Their results will reflect their beliefs. 

 

 

9 hours ago, vivianbl said:

 

Everyone knows Listening is not a passive process- just the wave frequency entering the ears. It is an active process influenced by numerous factors. Many of these these need to be taken into account in setting up a “gold standard” DBT.

Of course. 

 

9 hours ago, vivianbl said:

 

I agree with you, however,that we have to be very careful not to be taken in (blindly ) by manufacturers claims and their explanations for the claims and spending $ in the wrong place. Everyone has to make cost value and opportunity cost judgements even if they hear a difference in SQ.

 

3. Anecdotes can be used as data. They could also be used to ask the question “why is it so?” What data can we used to explain the phenomenon?

Again: We need, first, to establish if there is a phenomenon. Until that has been established, there is no need to complicate things. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, Yngvi said:

Lots of healthy discussion which is great. Very respectful which shows maturity of the sna  members involved. No pompous twats.

 

I am still none the wiser about how to measure the difference between power cables and their influence on the sound I hear.

Read my responses to your posts. I have answered your questions with great precision.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

10 hours ago, batou said:

no, the tech i know is a fellow audiphile.

Do not, EVER, assume that, because I do not swallow every bit of snake oil promulgated by those who lie for a living, that I am not an audiophile. 

 

Quote

i know an electronic engineer and electrical engineer. they are both fellow audiophile. 

they enjoy cables too.

infact i bough my first valhalla cable from the electrical engineer.

you find that if you put your textbook aside and start to enjoy music with your ear. you may notice things with your ear that textbook cant explain.

Nope. There are few mysteries in audio. There are certainly none in mains power leads.

 

Quote

i too study diploma of electronic 20 years ago. textbook only teach you someones theory. it is only right so far because nothing has proven it wrong Yet. doesn't mean it is right. 

Thomas Edison found electricity (dc current). his dc current theory is only right until it is proven wrong by Tesla principle of AC Current, which is much better and beaten Edison theory hands down.

Tesla did not "prove Edison wrong". Tesla merely showed that AC power reticulation was a more convenient system than DC in the 18th/19th century. In fact, modern high power reticulation systems are DC! Witness The Basslink system:

 

http://www.basslink.com.au/basslink-interconnector/about/

 

In fact, DC power transmission has numerous advantages over AC. Including:

 

Lack of inductive and capacitive losses.

Lack of skin effect losses.

 

We may see DC supplant AC in many parts of the power reticulation system in the future. Does that make Tesla wrong? 

 

No. It merely means that technological advances have trumped Tesla's technologies.

 

Quote

what i am trying to say is that the electronic principle that we learned so far is only right because its theory hasnt been proven wrong Just Yet. we are still understanding electronic in its infancy.

Are we likely to see more advancements and technological improvements in electronics in the future? Absolutely.

Are we likely to see improvements in mains power leads (as applied to 50/60Hz mains)? Absolutely not. The technology is VERY well understood. Snake oil manufacturers merely exist to confuse the ignorant.

 

Quote

we havent yet discover nanotechnology. once we reach nanotechnology, you will find all these electronic principle theory obsolete. just as i wasted 10 weeks of my life studying 'fixing crt monitor' 20 years ago. the damned crt is obsolete now! everybody is using flatscreen monitor now.

 

Again: Irrelevant. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Eggmeister]

37 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Read my responses to your posts. I have answered your questions with great precision.

All great about measuring the power cable @Zaphod Beeblebrox , I am keen to know if a power cable affect's the sound I hear

 

Can you elaborate about your term "Audible significance"

 

What is the definition of it, how do you measure it and what equipment do I need.

 

That is what I am interested in.

 

 

Great discussion by the way... very informative.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Caelian

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

22 hours ago, batou said:

 

whats those osciloscopes doing behind him (in the video) if he doesnt know how to use them????? for room decoration???

Possibly. However, one does not need to be an engineer to be able to use an oscilloscope or a 50 year old distortion analyser. Hell, I'm not an engineer, but I designed and built my own distortion analyser more than 45 years ago. I even built a budget oscilloscope some 40 odd years ago. 

 

22 hours ago, batou said:

 

i got a diploma in 'electronic engineering' 20 years back. i dont even know fully how to use those osciloscope.

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

12 minutes ago, Yngvi said:

All great about measuring the power cable @Zaphod Beeblebrox , I am keen to know if a power cable affect's the sound I hear

 

Can you elaborate about your term "Audible significance"

Sure. Engage in a proper, controlled double blind test (DBT) to tet if you can reliably pick the difference between any two, properly terminated and functioning mains power leads. 

 

12 minutes ago, Yngvi said:

 

What is the definition of it, how do you measure it and what equipment do I need.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment#Double-blind_trials

 

You only require a pair of ears, or several pairs of ears.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Yngvi said:

 

That is what I am interested in.

 

 

Great discussion by the way... very informative.