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fiddlesticks

2 bookshelfs as centre, not happy with sound.

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Hi All,

 

I have a Yamaha RX-V1065 receiver and I had 4 speakers (only) for about 7 years in my very small apartment.

Obviously I endured a phantom centre in the system and honestly, I wasn't unhappy with it through the years.

 

I got some speare speakers and so I put them side by side in my system and wired them I believe in series  parallel

The speakers are from TLS, the M4's 

http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/lsk-m4-mini-monitor-kit-single/

http://www.dansdata.com/m4kit.htm

 

Nominal (RMS) Power:
50 Watts
Impedance:
8 Ohms
Frequency Range:
60Hz-20kHz (-3dB)
Sensitivity:
85dB 1W@1M
Recommended Amplifier:
20W - 80W *
  • I'm playing all my media from a HTPC, via HDMI through an nvidia card
  • Windows is configured to output 5.1 channels.
  • I literally sit 7.5' from the speakers, that's ear to speaker cone - pretty damn close.
  • http://imgur.com/KhtAMPs

 

So here's the thing, I'm not sharp with speakers, hifi, home audio.   Am I doing something wrong?

I'm finding that the voices are simply too quiet. I've used the YAPO thing to adjust the centre channel.  Is my amp too weak to drive 2 speakers in series parallel?

 

 

Can anyone give me some tips? My next step is to actually completely disable the centre channel on the amp, keep using the phantom for a few weeks just to be sure it's not my imagination? It's distinctively voices (centre) which seem to be insufficient. (I've tried setting them to small and large on the amp)

 

Thanks for your time.

EDIT: Just FWIW, I don't believe I drive my system excessively loud, quite modest infact.  I don't think my hearing is damaged, I just want clear, distinct voices, I get the impression most movies unfortunately seem to send ALL the goddamn sound to the centre and even the fronts are only used sparingly.

Edited by fiddlesticks

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Try using just a single speaker as the centre, driven by one channel (the centre channel) of your receiver.

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Have played around with the per speaker level settings?

Boost what's too quiet, lessen what's too loud...

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I've tried setting the speaker itself to be a bit louder but I almost feel like this is a config issue in the amp, like normalising audio settings or some kind of obvious option I should know about.

I feel like far too much sound is simply being sent to them, I kind of (foolishly?) assumed they are primarily used for dialogue but it seems they are used for almost all sounds.

My fronts are old, crappy and cheap - but they do come with a full 8" driver.  They now feel underutilised.

 

 

I had a coworker even suggest that I set my audio on the HTPC to be 4.0, so the amp will not get discreet audio information for the centre, it will instead simply share the 2 L/R streams across 3 speakers.  (good idea, I was cool with this, even if it's "wrong") - didn't work though.

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To clarify. You have a single set of centre channel speaker binding posts on the Yamaha receiver, are you wiring up a pair of speakers to the speaker wire binding posts on the receiver?

Edited by DRC

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What are your centre speakers?

I use a pair of small bookshelf speakers for centres, driven by 2 channels of amplification and it works fine. I would advise turn your speakers around so the woofers are closest and the tweeters on the outside edge. In this setup you have less destructive interference (cancelation) in the mids/bass due to the close proximity of woofers, and no cancelation in high frequency as the tweeters are far apart relative to the frequencies they are reproducing.

Right now you have the opposite and may be experiencing some frequency nulls or at least dips.

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I would suggest you use one speaker as a centre rather than two :)

 

also be very wary of orientation of speakers, it makes a massive difference. try it if you like, while listening get someone to turn the speakers in orientation and hear the difference

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I don't think that you amplifier has the requisite capability to drive two speakers for the centre channel. Use one or none.

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To clarify. You have a single set of centre channel speaker binding posts on the Yamaha receiver, are you wiring up a pair of speakers to the speaker wire binding posts on the receiver?

 

 

I'm wiring in  parallel, but they are pretty weedy speakers and the RX-V1075 (I assumed?) wasn't one of their low end amps.

http://www.rio.com.au/product/2/7/1135/yamaha-rxv1075

 

parallel_wiring.gif

 

 

EDIT:

I'm still not convinced the issue is the amp / speakers - is there a configuration option I should be considering on the amp? Something particular people do for small centres / speakers in general?

Edited by fiddlesticks

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Sorry I'm an idiot, to clarify it's wired in PARALLEL as per the advice of someone on another forum when I first set them up a few years back.

He suggested I should always "run at the lower impedance load" if your amp is rated to handle it safely. 

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Since connecting the speakers have you run YPAO yet.

If not try and run it once and see how it goes then.

 

That means in parallel you are running it as 2 ohms. Try it in series then.

Edited by rocky500

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Since connecting the speakers have you run YPAO yet.

If not try and run it once and see how it goes then.

 

That means in parralel you are running it as 2 ohms. Try it in series then.

 

Yeah I've run YPAO, even partially boosted the sound manually.

It seels like movies just seem to really put a lot of audio on to the centre and I want the amp to feel free to use the fronts a bit more basically (they aren't even that good, yet much better)

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I think when you have a center, most goes to the center in movies.

So if using a center, spend a bit on it or otherwise no center may be better.

There is one here which you could even place the TV straight on top.

I would buy it myself but it is too wide for my hifi cabinet.

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=149139

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http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/60642-bereavement-sale/?hl=richter

There's a richter unicorn going there for $100, ran that centre for some years myself, very decent large we'll built centre, and will take a large tv on top, ran a large CRT on top of mine, then plasmas later.

Can buy some other richter mains pretty cheaply to go with, really very decent speakers from back in the day when richter made some lovely stuff.

Speakers like these would run a full theatre no probs and cost next to nothing these days :)

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I've just gone in the menu - just to confirm.

My centre(s) were set to small, I've changed them to large.

I already have +8.5DB

 

The dynamic range trickery stuff was all disabled, I've set some to medium and I'm going to change the angle of the speakers about 5'  to aim towards me (about as much I can do in the shelf they are in)

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If you wire in parallel, your amplifier will see twice the impedance load. If you wire in series, the amp will see half the impedance load. Your amplifier can't support a low impedance load.

Edited by Telecine

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If you wire in parallel, your amplifier will see twice the impedance load. If you wire in series, the amp will see half the impedance load. Your amplifier can't support a low impedance load.

Can you translate that to dumb for me? :(

Is this based on the specs of my amp?

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There is a section in the manual for "Setting the speaker Impedance" - in Preparation - Connecting speakers Page 18 ?

 

You could try setting it to 6 ohms to see if it helps at all. (8 Ohms is the other setting)

By the sounds of it, the center speakers are quite inefficient to your front speakers so you have them +8.5dB hotter to help out.

Getting a more efficient speaker like something in the 90dB range or above will help.

The one I linked to earlier is 91dB.

Just checked the specs

Cabinet: 800w x 160h x 315d bass reflex 24 litres
Power Handling: 120/160 wrms/max
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Frequency Response: 56 -- 40,000 Hertz +/-2dB
Sensitivity: 91dB 1w/1m
Drivers: 2 x 150 mm SB Acoustics bass drivers; 2 x 125 mm SB Acoustics midrange; ribbon tweeter
Description: This is an efficient high end 3-way centre; good low end bass and voice production; similar driver setup and crossover as some Timberwolf series floorstanding speakers.

 

Also the ones al mentioned look great too especially for the price. Not sure of their specs.

Edited by rocky500

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AS others have mentioned, have you tried just running a single speaker for the middle? Makes things a lot less tricky and probably more coherent.

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Hi guys , have had a similar issue with mine so i purchased a Power Amp to run a pair of Bose acoustimas 5 with sub as my Centre Channel, as the pre out for the Centre is Mono just run a single rca from AVR into 2 RCA into Power Amp so the Power Amp still gets a left and right signal, at least this way you can run any pair of speakers as your Centre.

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I would seriously suggest not connecting more than one speaker to your centre channel.  It could damage your AVR/Amp.  Best to get a dedicated centre or a good bookshelf and wire it straight through to your centre channel output on the AVR. 

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I would seriously suggest not connecting more than one speaker to your centre channel.  It could damage your AVR/Amp.  Best to get a dedicated centre or a good bookshelf and wire it straight through to your centre channel output on the AVR.

Yes indeed.

And turn up the centre speaker if it is too soft

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I have previouly connected two sets of two speakers together as rears and currently have some in ceiling Niles speakers that have two tweeters.

Both times these have been wired in series as advised by the hifi specialist.

 

If all else fails, try them in series.

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Hi All,

 

I have a Yamaha RX-V1065 receiver and I had 4 speakers (only) for about 7 years in my very small apartment.

Obviously I endured a phantom centre in the system and honestly, I wasn't unhappy with it through the years.

 

I got some speare speakers and so I put them side by side in my system and wired them I believe in series  parallel

The speakers are from TLS, the M4's 

http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/lsk-m4-mini-monitor-kit-single/

http://www.dansdata.com/m4kit.htm

  • I'm playing all my media from a HTPC, via HDMI through an nvidia card
  • Windows is configured to output 5.1 channels.
  • I literally sit 7.5' from the speakers, that's ear to speaker cone - pretty damn close.
  • http://imgur.com/KhtAMPs

 

So here's the thing, I'm not sharp with speakers, hifi, home audio.   Am I doing something wrong?

I'm finding that the voices are simply too quiet. I've used the YAPO thing to adjust the centre channel.  Is my amp too weak to drive 2 speakers in series parallel?

 

 

Can anyone give me some tips? My next step is to actually completely disable the centre channel on the amp, keep using the phantom for a few weeks just to be sure it's not my imagination? It's distinctively voices (centre) which seem to be insufficient. (I've tried setting them to small and large on the amp)

 

Thanks for your time.

EDIT: Just FWIW, I don't believe I drive my system excessively loud, quite modest infact.  I don't think my hearing is damaged, I just want clear, distinct voices, I get the impression most movies unfortunately seem to send ALL the goddamn sound to the centre and even the fronts are only used sparingly.

most centre speakers are more or less 2 woofers in parallel or series + a tweeter, so i don't see a problem with running 2 speakers. running parallel with a 4 ohm (you have 2 8 ohm speakers) load would only possibly become an issue at high volumes increasing distortion and potentially drawing more current damaging your amp, but keep the volume reasonable and it shouldn't be an issue, i am running 4 ohm speakers from a very low end pioneer amp and have no volume or distortion issues, and its rated only to 6 ohm.. Centre should be set to "small" unless they it has 8" woofers or larger that can produce deep full bass. It is possible the phase is incorrect on the speakers and they are out of phase with each other and/or the front speakers, so try swapping the +/- around and listen for the difference. THX dvd's have a phase test for 5.1 speakers that should help. You might need to plug the bookshelves into the front l/r outputs on the amp to test phase if using the thx phase test. You also note its connected to a HTPC, this is often an issue, try from dvd player.

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