How Loud Will ML1's Go

[bhobba]

How this relates to the OP, I dunno?? 

 

Hi Pete

 

Threads on this sub forum often veer off the started topic.  I don't think anyone ever worries about it here.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited August 11, 2013 by bhobba

[Gordon Macfarlane]

Hi Mike , as my sig says "an open mind is a good starting point" ie I like to try things for myself and not just accept other peoples idea's.

20 some years ago I left the UK to come to Perth selling off my system and giving away over 1000 lp's .

Arriving in Perth I found that vinyl replay was pretty much dead and so decided to build a CD based system. I struggled for quite a while to find a system on which I could enjoy the musical performance and not be distracted by "digititis". It took me nearly the whole 20 yrs to find a cd based system where I just enjoyed the music.

Of recent times I have been experimenting with computer audio and while I still don't quite have a pc based system that outperforms my CD transport it is getting close in sound quality terms and offers great convenience .

About 5 yrs ago I restarted servicing Lp12's, for some of the local guy's (I was trained at the Linn factory in Glasgow) and was surprised at how much better , to my ears, a good turntable still sounded compared to the digital systems I had heard to date .

As to software quality , I have found that the medium is less important than the quality of the recording etc.

Like you I have a non-audiophile partner with good ears and he still prefers vinyl replay to any of the digital systems we have owned or heard.

All the best,

Gordon

Edited August 11, 2013 by Ozcall

[acg]

 

When recently in Edinburgh Scotland I recorded an 8ft Steinway grande in a Cathedral with awesome acoustics using a high rez 24/96 field recorder ( 90 degree Blumlien )

at about 4mtrs. I was very interested to hear what it would sound like on the factory system ! I didn't expect too much to be honest. I was shocked at how good this was, it was subjectively 95% of exactly what I heard at the venue. Where was it different you may ask ? the recording through my system sounded just a touch more airy than I remember hearing and the replay sounded fractionally more impressive or perhaps try hard ! for want of a better expletive. 

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

Based on my recent and relentless tweaking and trialling of computer audio I have a theory that the extra 'airiness' and 'try-hardedness' (not a word, but you get the idea) of the presentation you got from that playback at your factory _may_ be able to be improved with the computer source/playback software/dac setup.  Just a theory of course, and I'm not saying that your setup is necessarily deficient in these areas.  I have a new setup (running in) that for me has traded some of the airiness from my previous system for a more settled down, scaled up, more lifelike scale of presentation that is more natural and real.  In hindsight, many of the digital systems that I have heard seem to have the size of the instruments disproportionate to the amount of space between them (too much space or air).  I hope this paragraph has not come across as a mindless rant because that is not my intention:  it is difficult trying to explain some of the things that rattle around my mind. 

 

This digital instrument/airiness ratio conundrum was especially brought home late on Friday night after I had been to see the QSO earlier in the evening play some Dvorak (including other things).  I came home, put on some hi-res Dvorak (that has been transferred to pcm from a Master Tape of a 50yo recording) and was blown away be how accurate the presentation of the orchestra seemed to be, the size of the sound field, where the various instruments were coming from, how closely my computer audio mimicked not only the sweetness and softness of the sound, but how the scale of the dynamics were very similar as well.  For me, this is the holy grail (my previous system was not quite there and I doubt that I could have tweaked it any more to get there), and I have heard a lot of digital that is at either end of the spectrum from too flat and lifeless (jitter problems most likely) to too hyper-real (hyper real really gives me the irrits).  The ability of digital to trend toward hyper-reality I think is relatively unique to the format, and may be one thing that puts some of the analogue listeners off. 

 

Personally, I have not heard much high-end vinyl, so can only speculate just how that sounds and why many prefer it to digital, but if you host a GTG with various sources I would love to bring my new digital setup down the hill to put in the mix.  Shoot, you know me, I'd love to bring it down even without the GTG.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony   

Edited August 11, 2013 by acg

[Lenehan Audio]

Hi Mike

 

I like both digital and vinyl, but for different aspects that either format can bring to the table and my particular mood at the time.   But I have to say that a dead and slow vinyl rig would be the fault of the vinyl rig, not the medium itself.  Under no circumstances have I experienced a digital rig slaughter a vinyl rig, it's just not possible if the vinyl rig is fully optimised.    That has been my experience.  

 

A $100 cartridge on fully optimised TT will outperform a very good cartridge on a poorly implemented rig every time.

 

How this relates to the OP, I dunno?? 

 

Cheers

 

Pete 

Hi Pete       yup there's many truths out there, I've heard plenty of well set up tables of all sorts from $500 to $20000 . My main issues are with the huge qualitative  variance of Vinyl .

Ohh it's possible Pete I've heard it many times.  Of course we could do that test together and I could turn to you and say There ya go Pete your turntable just gor killed by the Digital  !!   but you could say I'm soory I think the Vinyl beat the Digital. This is some of what I was saying in my original post.         Regards Mike Lenehan 

[Lenehan Audio]

Hi Mike , as my sig says "an open mind is a good starting point" ie I like to try things for myself and not just accept other peoples idea's.

20 some years ago I left the UK to come to Perth selling off my system and giving away over 1000 lp's .

Arriving in Perth I found that vinyl replay was pretty much dead and so decided to build a CD based system. I struggled for quite a while to find a system on which I could enjoy the musical performance and not be distracted by "digititis". It took me nearly the whole 20 yrs to find a cd based system where I just enjoyed the music.

Of recent times I have been experimenting with computer audio and while I still don't quite have a pc based system that outperforms my CD transport it is getting close in sound quality terms and offers great convenience .

About 5 yrs ago I started servicing Lp12's for some of the local guy's (I was trained at the Linn factory in Glasgow) and was surprised at how much better , to my ears, a good turntable still sounded compared to the digital systems I had heard to date .

As to software quality , I have found that the medium is less important than the quality of the recording etc.

Like you I have a non-audiophile partner with good ears and he still prefers vinyl replay to any of the digital systems we have owned or heard.

All the best,

Gordon

Hi Gordon      good post ! this nearly mirrors my own experience over a similar period. I think Digital has a good chance against Vinyl only since the advent of computer audio as to my mind anything that spins a disc sounds slow and muffled with sound that is beaten by a good table.

 

I dont think it was ever the PCM format that was at fault I think it was always CD transports and CD players ! Ohh yeah flammin SPDIF and input recievers.  Regards Mike

[rawl99]

 

I have heard the Rockport Sirius 111 turntable that Rawl99 has heard and thought it sounded very good but not more than that. This was insitu in a 1 million dollar system at the time. I came straight back to the factory and played the same material on ML1Reference and a Level2 PDX and I'm afraid it wiped the floor with the megabuck system.

 

In the last 10 years I've heard some good turntables ! I remember comparing a VPI Scout with a CD player in Rawl99's system about 3years ago ! (Dire Straights ,Private investigations )  it was close but I think the Turntable won that one.. 

 

Digital doesn't do this, I can select anything on my Mac Mini and hit play ! it sound awesome. 

 

          Best Regards Mike Lenehan      LenehanAudio

Mike,

Gotta voice my view here.

To this day, having heard both the Rockport ( many evenings spent in front of that system, as well as the same day as you) and the same material played on yours, for me the two were worlds apart in exactly the opposite direction that you felt.

Having said that, both your and my systems have moved forward in significant leaps and bounds since then.

Should hope so given the time and effort we have dedicated to achieving such.

Again re Private investigation the results were mixed. We learnt a great deal that afternoon about power filtering.

Remember, when we ran the TT and phono stage straight from the wall the cd smashed it.

When we then changed the TT and phono power to come out of the filtered supply (as was feeding the cd) the results turned around. How interesting was our discussion around that phenomenon!

I wonder why it is that everything thru your digital setup you find "sounds awesome" .

I find some sounds great, some average, some crap.

Surely you gotta have some 'bad' recordings that sound poor, or worse??

With some new experimentation and goodies I am finding that R2R and my Cd/dac combo interchange as to which is better depending upon the source material. Getting cd to sound up there with tape has been a fun little endeavour.

Your turn,

Rawl

What the freekin eck this has to do with how loud ML1s will go is totally beyond me.

But for my view, quite loud enough. If you want to play electronica, or doof doof at ear bleeding levels, buy a bigger floor-stander.

The foot print is the same and the potential for much bigger levels is there.

I can get around 105dB peaks at listening chair from my ML3s; which is plenty loud. Have not tried the meter with ML1 references.

One of these days when I have them set up will drag the meter out.

[Lenehan Audio]

Hi Mike,

 

Based on my recent and relentless tweaking and trialling of computer audio I have a theory that the extra 'airiness' and 'try-hardedness' (not a word, but you get the idea) of the presentation you got from that playback at your factory _may_ be able to be improved with the computer source/playback software/dac setup.  Just a theory of course, and I'm not saying that your setup is necessarily deficient in these areas.  I have a new setup (running in) that for me has traded some of the airiness from my previous system for a more settled down, scaled up, more lifelike scale of presentation that is more natural and real.  In hindsight, many of the digital systems that I have heard seem to have the size of the instruments disproportionate to the amount of space between them (too much space or air).  I hope this paragraph has not come across as a mindless rant because that is not my intention:  it is difficult trying to explain some of the things that rattle around my mind. 

 

This digital instrument/airiness ratio conundrum was especially brought home late on Friday night after I had been to see the QSO earlier in the evening play some Dvorak (including other things).  I came home, put on some hi-res Dvorak (that has been transferred to pcm from a Master Tape of a 50yo recording) and was blown away be how accurate the presentation of the orchestra seemed to be, the size of the sound field, where the various instruments were coming from, how closely my computer audio mimicked not only the sweetness and softness of the sound, but how the scale of the dynamics were very similar as well.  For me, this is the holy grail (my previous system was not quite there and I doubt that I could have tweaked it any more to get there), and I have heard a lot of digital that is at either end of the spectrum from too flat and lifeless (jitter problems most likely) to too hyper-real (hyper real really gives me the irrits).  The ability of digital to trend toward hyper-reality I think is relatively unique to the format, and may be one thing that puts some of the analogue listeners off. 

 

Personally, I have not heard much high-end vinyl, so can only speculate just how that sounds and why many prefer it to digital, but if you host a GTG with various sources I would love to bring my new digital setup down the hill to put in the mix.  Shoot, you know me, I'd love to bring it down even without the GTG.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony   

Hi Anthony         well mate if you've got stuff rattling round in your head I've got some meds that could help ! Ok it's a rant but not mindless, I'm getting very similar results to you  !  

I think I've worked out the sound of Jitter and I think it comes from CD transports or CD players . Those that still hang onto their CD spinners seem to be those that like the old classic Valve sound also.

What I'm thinking is that the Jitter inherent in CD transports makes them sound a bit ponderous and indistinct with bass that makes a bass drum sound like it's got pillow glue to the skin. This could also maybe be considered as a smooth rounded and listenable sound that may ameliorate other inadequacies in a particular system.

We will certainly throw up a GTG and do some interesting listening.

                                                                                                                Regards Mike Lenehan

[Lenehan Audio]

Mike,

Gotta voice my view here.

To this day, having heard both the Rockport ( many evenings spent in front of that system, as well as the same day as you) and the same material played on yours, for me the two were worlds apart in exactly the opposite direction that you felt.

Having said that, both your and my systems have moved forward in significant leaps and bounds since then.

Should hope so given the time and effort we have dedicated to achieving such.

Again re Private investigation the results were mixed. We learnt a great deal that afternoon about power filtering.

Remember, when we ran the TT and phono stage straight from the wall the cd smashed it.

When we then changed the TT and phono power to come out of the filtered supply (as was feeding the cd) the results turned around. How interesting was our discussion around that phenomenon!

I wonder why it is that everything thru your digital setup you find "sounds awesome" .

I find some sounds great, some average, some crap.

Surely you gotta have some 'bad' recordings that sound poor, or worse??

With some new experimentation and goodies I am finding that R2R and my Cd/dac combo interchange as to which is better depending upon the source material. Getting cd to sound up there with tape has been a fun little endeavour.

Your turn,

Rawl

What the freekin eck this has to do with how loud ML1s will go is totally beyond me.

But for my view, quite loud enough. If you want to play electronica, or doof doof at ear bleeding levels, buy a bigger floor-stander.

The foot print is the same and the potential for much bigger levels is there.

I can get around 105dB peaks at listening chair from my ML3s; which is plenty loud. Have not tried the meter with ML1 references.

One of these days when I have them set up will drag the meter out.

Indeed  Good Afternoon Rawl            what kept you I was expecting a reply within 26 seconds ? I was very underwhelmed by that megabuck system. I felt it lacked Ahhhh ! everything. The two worst was the bass which was too lean and it's soundstaging stability and 3 dimensionality which would have been considered Average in a 5K system.

 

My system of course fluctuates in performance in respect of what's being done with it at the time. Yes that was a good day when did the TT Dig comparo, have you still got your VPI table.               Regards Mike Lenehan

[davewantsmoore]

Speaking of that ... how loud can the ML1s go in the real world? 

technically loudness is a perception, but then again I'm interested to find out the max SPL.

Did try to take a picture but it's harder than I though :/ I'm thinking mine (or me) max out at only 75 dB SPL..  That's kind of normal and I'm sure it can go harder.. but how much harder?

 

Do you think it's strange that nobody has made any claims refuting what is in post #3 and #4 ?!

[Lenehan Audio]

Do you think it's strange that nobody has made any claims refuting what is in post #3 and #4 ?!

Hi Dave         It's not strange it's simple ! I dont think anyone can see it, think I'm a bit blind maybe I tried again but cant make anything out          Regards Mike Lenehan

[davewantsmoore]

Ok.   I hunted down my good hearing protection, and banished the wife from this end of the house... and I did the test I've been promising to do.

 

 

• Just below 100dB @ xmax  (= 3.5mm travel)
• Max output = 105.8dB ... (calibrated mic)   This was more than 5mm cone travel, but it was hard to tell how much.
• This reads as 108.8dB on my cheapy SPL meter, due to the 3dB crest factor of the signal.

 

• Measurements taken indoors 10x5m room @ 1m
• No crossover on woofer.   Test signal limited to 60Hz -> 200Hz
• Sabre DAC feeding a ME amp, channels bridged to provide 300w to 8ohms.

 

 

I didn't measure the amp.... but input and output V sensitivities of the amp/dac are matched close enough... and the test signal was -7dBFS from full output.

 

If you model these figures backwards to WinISD... they correspond to a cone travel of 6.5mm.    Seems legit.

 

 

EDIT:   Don't mind the dips in the measurement ... indoor results look like that.  It was only on a small 50cm stand, close to furniture, etc.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2013 by davewantsmoore

[davewantsmoore]

Hi Dave         It's not strange it's simple ! I dont think anyone can see it, think I'm a bit blind maybe I tried again but cant make anything out          Regards Mike Lenehan

 

Mike.  Not sure exactly what you're saying here.... but I have assumed you (nor anyone else) have no major disagreement with post #3 / #4

 

Cheers.

[davewantsmoore]

Jitter sound a bit ponderous and indistinct with bass that makes a bass drum sound like it's got pillow glue to the skin

 

Yes.  Jitter for me sounds somewhat like high noise floor.    Loud 'transient' still sticks out ... but low level information is lost.     So music is still somewhat 'exciting' ... but also somehow also 'lifeless'.

 

Indistinct is a good description.

[Lenehan Audio]

Mike.  Not sure exactly what you're saying here.... but I have assumed you (nor anyone else) have no major disagreement with post #3 / #4

 

Cheers.

Hi Dave    no what I'm saying is I cant SEE it with my eyes ! I've tried blowing the screen up but it just blurrs for me.

[Lenehan Audio]

Yes.  Jitter for me sounds somewhat like high noise floor.    Loud 'transient' still sticks out ... but low level information is lost.     So music is still somewhat 'exciting' ... but also somehow also 'lifeless'.

 

Indistinct is a good description.

Exactly what I hear ! so you reckon this is the sound of Jitter ? I can hear it in anything that spins a silver disc ! So I agree with many of you here , Vinyl doesn't have this and this is where the excellent clarity comes from in Vinyl.  BUT  computer audio to my ears doesn't have this jittery sound and resolution and dimensionality is phenomenal.              

    Regards Mike Lenehan 

[ArthurDent]

Hi Dave    no what I'm saying is I cant SEE it with my eyes ! I've tried blowing the screen up but it just blurrs for me.

Even when you click on the thumbnail.

[davewantsmoore]

Hi Dave    no what I'm saying is I cant SEE it with my eyes ! I've tried blowing the screen up but it just blurrs for me.

 

Ah, I understand now.    You just need to click on each picture, and they popup larger and (very) clearer

[Guest myrantz]

Ok.   I hunted down my good hearing protection, and banished the wife from this end of the house... and I did the test I've been promising to do.

 

Nice! But I assume that's not an ML1?

 

[davewantsmoore]

Exactly what I hear ! so you reckon this is the sound of Jitter ?

 

Yep, I do   ... it even sounds like the measurements indicate it would   

 

 

I agree on vinyl too.   It's faults are not as offensive as the faults of (faulty) digital playback.

[Lenehan Audio]

Even when you click on the thumbnail.

Whoops      thanks Ken

[Willco]

Hi Ozcall      there's definitely  a huge divide here between the Digital and Turntable guys.  When I released the ML3Reference at the Sydney Audio Club there was about 75 people there, we used a PDX and Mac Mini.

 

One of the members brought his Turntable ! a nicely rebuilt Direct Drive with good arm and a $700 phono cartridge ! I also brought a sealed copy of Rickie Lee Jones Showbiz Kids 45RPM Analogue Productions Vinyl.

 

The digital just slaughtered the Vinyl ! my brother leant over to me while the vinyl was playing and said he was shocked at how dead and slow the record was ( both my brothers own rebuilt Garard 301 and 401 in custom 30kg plinths. ) After asking about a dozen people what they prefered I was  shocked to hear that only about two thirds thought the Digital was better and that the club president actually liked the Vinyl better.

 

My partner Joanne hears very well but is not an audiophile ! she said to me on the way home in the car that she couldn't undersatand someone liking the Vinyl because it sounded like the instruments and singer  was a long way away   !! " from the mouth of babes " or should I say a Babe ?

 

I have heard the Rockport Sirius 111 turntable that Rawl99 has heard and thought it sounded very good but not more than that. This was insitu in a 1 million dollar system at the time. I came straight back to the factory and played the same material on ML1Reference and a Level2 PDX and I'm afraid it wiped the floor with the megabuck system.

 

In the last 10 years I've heard some good turntables ! I remember comparing a VPI Scout with a CD player in Rawl99's system about 3years ago ! (Dire Straights ,Private investigations )  it was close but I think the Turntable won that one.

 

What intrigues me no end is that this huge rift exists between audiophiles re this subject ! Psycho acoustics  ? Perhaps some peoples hearing is simply different , just as good as another persons but different.

 

A friend of mine has a great system using a superbly set up Linn LP12 with $5K Audiotechnica Anniversary cartridge. He does listen to CD and loves it but feel the LP12 is capable of much more ( probably would be ) He has over 1000 records but only about 40 next to the system the rest are up stairs. I said haven't you got room to put near the turntable ? He said no ! these are the only ones that sound good nearly all the stuff upstairs is **** ! I said WHAT surely at least half of it is good playable material, come on mate are you being a bit anal ? is it real old stuf ? No most is in mint condition an very good vinyl. 

 

Digital doesn't do this, I can select anything on my Mac Mini and hit play ! it sound awesome. 

 

When recently in Edinburgh Scotland I recorded an 8ft Steinway grande in a Cathedral with awesome acoustics using a high rez 24/96 field recorder ( 90 degree Blumlien )

at about 4mtrs. I was very interested to hear what it would sound like on the factory system ! I didn't expect too much to be honest. I was shocked at how good this was, it was subjectively 95% of exactly what I heard at the venue. Where was it different you may ask ? the recording through my system sounded just a touch more airy than I remember hearing and the replay sounded fractionally more impressive or perhaps try hard ! for want of a better expletive. 

 

I'm quite happy to burn a few copies if anyone want s to hear this.

 

This is of course my subjective opinion and believe me I'm not against Vinyl or analogue, at one time all I would use is a 15ips Mastering machine 456 Grande Master and two AKG crossed Mic's then drive it directly into a pair of Allen Wrights (RIP) 20watt classA Monoblocks and into stacked Quad 57's.

 

I'm happy to speak to anyone re this subject but if posts start going sideways and a bit funny I shall withdraw.

 

PS   just had a thought ! how about another shootout  GTG    anyone got a good turntable they will bring down ?             Best Regards Mike Lenehan      LenehanAudio

 

Wooo-- Great summation there Mike-- I bet there wasn't much left in the bottle after writing that!

 

I'm upping my meds for the Right of Reply---

 

Great Thread--by the way!

 

Willco

[Sub Sonic]

Luckily there is no need to bother with those unnatural pipe organs.

 

Hey!! What's wrong with pipe organs?

 

They're the reason I have two large black boxes in my living room.

 

 

SS

[davewantsmoore]

Nice! But I assume that's not an ML1?

 

 

Sorry peolpe, didn't see this post

 

It is the same sized cabinet... with a similar (not that it actually matters for this measurement)   extreme build quality  (MDF + HDF + epoxy) ....  same driver.     The SPL number is the same at a high enough frequency (say 150hz), and would be the same at much lower frequencies too assuming the bass alignment was the same, and the room was the same   (but we shouldn't assume that, although I suspect it would be close).