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m_ani3

new sub needed

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Hi, I have had many subs from DIY to pro units to try. Manu specs often miss what hifi people need as distinct from home theater only users. I rate adjustability an important part of the design, the number of adjusting points the better. Most auto bass eq (built in) have only one bandpass parametric eq, this will only balance one of the room nodes. Velodyne and Paradigm offer the multi point versions unless you buy an add on Audessy or similar, inbuilt receiver ones limit the available processing for bass eq, paradigm IMO offer the best in PBK bass kit in that it uses your pc to do the heavy-duty lifting computations. Easy to use and see the results too.

You need to be able to hear individual tones, and a great sub has little audible contribution, which is hard to get used to after a lifetime of boom, often sounds like it's not working!

Research, research!

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my current sub does a secent job but i just wanted better lol ...

my klipsch is 400wrms constant and 800 dynamic... the svs is almost has twice the power ... bigger drivers ... ooo a quick question what is the difference between a 13" and a 15"driver .. sonically

in terms of the theory, a 15" driver moves a lot more air than a 13" driver

...

should technically mean it can plumb lower freq's with less distortion.

 

There is absolutely nothing you can say for sure knowing only 13" and 15" ... except that if the cone moves the same distance the 15" will move more more air .... but that doesn't even necessarily say anything about the performance.    More info is required.

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I have two of these http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XXLS400FF.htm in my stereo setup and they are brilliant. They are about $800 each with shipping to Tassie. You are welcome to come and have a listen if you like.

 

http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/monolith-FF_Plus.htm have a bit more power and may be more suited to HT as it plays down to 15hz at -3db. How big is your room?

Edited by automated

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Somebody mentioned THX reference - it's actually 115 dB peaks in the listening position for the bass, so that would equate to a sub that actually models to higher output at 1m. That's a lot of bass, much more than most want or achieve and in fact most subs in most rooms would not reach that level even at 40 Hz! I used to do demos with a little LOTR trailer with a big thundering bass drum like sound at the end, and it seemed to register at about 108 dB, shaking the room and giving that chest and couch shaking/thumping sensation. I had a pair of sealed 12" subs with 650w into each, the subs running around their excursion limits to pull it off in a fairly average living room. THX reference would sound twice as loud again. The curious thing is when a sub gets THX certified and you know it could not hit reference in a normal room - not unless you measure in a bedroom!

 

Regarding driver size - all else being equal, a larger piston area gives you greater efficiency. The driver designer then chooses to use that extra area to either boost efficiency, or maintain the same efficiency but go deeper. You can have one or the other, or anything in between. By the time you get to an 18" driver, with the fs (free air resonance) around 20 Hz you can get decent sensitivity around 90 dB. When the piston area is doubled, 3 dB sensitivity is gained as a rule, with fs being maintained. 13.5" is not much less than 15" so there is not much difference. 12" to 15" would see around 2 dB increase in sensitivity generally. The piston area is not known because there is some variation, partly due to surrounds being different.

 

We currently have some high gloss boxes that require you to make cut outs for amp and driver. You need to be able to handle a jigsaw or router. There are also versions with cut outs already done and we can get those by request. There's a few sub kits also, they are all sealed box subs. We have a really nice 12" kit with a 500w plate amp. On its own its debatable whether it delivers the level of chest thump desired, but your budget covers two of them. The second sub adds 6 dB which subjectively is twice as loud for bass - the equal loudness contours do us a little favour here for bass. Except if you then want the same increase again, you then need to double up, then it starts to get expensive.

 

We have some other options coming soon. A really good option we'll have soon is an 18" driver in a sealed box with a 1kw plate amp. I still can't believe the price we are getting this driver for.

 

Someone mentioned the dual driver sub. That will go back up soon.

 

Horn subs. I have one under the floor and it will outgun any sub that doesn't have multiple 18" high excursion drivers with kilowatts of power. The only downside is that these have a limited bandwidth. 70 Hz is the upper limit with mine. The Danley DTS10 is tuned quite low and has some problems with ringing in the range commonly covered by a sub in the upper bass. It's a beast but if you are doing a serious job of integration, you should only use it as a LFE sub adding to other subs that are more articulate in the upper bass region.

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 70 Hz is the upper limit with mine.

 

gee that's a huge trade-off imho....

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considering the TH have rising response, its common and advisable to have lower cutoff.

anyway if we are talking the size of the TH like paul spencer's you would need a bigger mains, prob no less than typical 8" pro woofers and horns, i see no problem for it to play 50-60hz.

there are NO hifi drivers available (unless line array or multiple drivers arrangement) to match the power spl with those serious TH SUB.

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dbl post sorry :)

Edited by henry218

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gee that's a huge trade-off imho....

 

We're talking about a 2.4m tall sub and that's the first thing you think of as a trade-off?! :P

 

I probably could actually get it to 80 Hz, haven't tried because it isn't required. I designed this for my system, which is an extreme one with a pair of 18" woofers that needed to run up to 250 Hz - something you don't want a sub to do. So all the sub had to do was fill out the bottom octave and meet the sub somewhere in the middle of the bass region. This sub suits those who have a fairly extreme system. It doesn't suit most people. I think of it as a specialist heavy lifting sub. A sub like this is the cheapest way to do it. Let's say someone had one or a number of compact sealed subs. Rather than upgrade them all, they could just add a sub such as this to do what they will struggle with. A bit like having a burly removalist to carry your piano whilst you carry the wine glasses.

 

considering the TH have rising response, its common and advisable to have lower cutoff.

 

It's not necessarily a rising response - that's a matter of design. You can design them that way, say if you are going for a very low cut-off without wanting to make it big enough to get the efficiency at its lowest point. What you do get with all of them is resonances above the desired passband, seen as fairly high Q peaks in the frequency response and those cause ringing in the time domain. If you didn't integrate it properly or if the design was not suited to the system, then you would get poor sound quality. But that would not stop many from still being impressed. Bass is a funny thing. I've heard many rave about subs that sound like turd. And there ain't to way to make it sound like anything else.

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i dont know much for technical terms, but i prefer bass that can go to full throttle and stop without ant farts :)

thats the first thing i recognized with the tapped horn

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Somebody mentioned THX reference - it's actually 115 dB

<snip>

and it seemed to register at about 108 dB, shaking the room and giving that chest and couch shaking/thumping sensation. I had a pair of sealed 12" subs with 650w into each, the subs running around their excursion limits to pull it off in a fairly average living room.

 

Sounds right.   My single similar subwoofer hit it's maximums doing 105dB@3m

 

I ignore the 10dB headroom in THX ...  These are already big numbers at home!  :-)

 

 

Regarding driver size - all else being equal, a larger piston area gives you greater efficiency. 

 

Yes, my post before might have been a bit blunt.... but it's the all else equal part which is key   (obviously BL product and mass)

 

 

gee that's a huge trade-off imho....

 

I dunno.   Even without considering the horn ....    2 octaves of bandwidth is pretty right for all drivers / frequency ranges ....  If attempting SOTA.

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A pity you don't want to go the DIY route.

I still have some leftover drivers from the old business in the garage here at Zeehan, and could help with design (but not construction - all the tools have gone)

 

I've got a couple of 10", 12" and 15" drivers left.

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A pity you don't want to go the DIY route.

I still have some leftover drivers from the old business in the garage here at Zeehan, and could help with design (but not construction - all the tools have gone)

 

I've got a couple of 10", 12" and 15" drivers left.

 

Details on the drivers?

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 here at Zeehan

 

Just a quick rip up the road you say?!   (Nice roads up there too)

 

Interested in details too.

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As a brand, I can recommend Osborn, although am not sure of their prices - you will have to ask:

 

http://www.osbornloudspeakers.com.au/

 

Also Velodyne if you can find a second hand one.

 

Cheers

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If you want to feel the bass there are two ways to do it, big drivers or multiple smaller drivers, As a few have mentioned using a 15 over a 13 for instance will push more air all thing being equal but 4x10's will push more than a 15 and be tighter and punchier as well. I hate big drivers, they never have the tightness or attack I like so I prefer multiple smaller drivers........

 

Of course I'm talking about my bass rig that uses 6x10 inch drivers and is powered by a 750w head.  :P

Edited by keitha

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thanks for all your replies guys really awesome suggestions ... i might wait until LSK bring their 1kw sub kits in and might go from there ... 

got a quote from hsu for 2 uls 15 subs delivered to australia was going to be around 2200 so that might be worth a look as well i suppose 

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Stretch the budget a tad and get a Seaton SubMersive with the used amp option.

  1000 watt amp with 2 x 15 inch drivers. Sealed box

Will give that cinema feel for sure :)

Edited by Itsmoi

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Stretch the budget a tad and get a Seaton SubMersive with the used amp option.

  1000 watt amp with 2 x 15 inch drivers. Sealed box

Will give that cinema feel for sure :)

where exactly can i get that if you can be kind enough to give me a link :)

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Have a look at this link:

 

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/How-to-purchase-the-SubMersive-or-other-Seaton-Sound-designs.-1942660

 

It's a few years old but I believe sales are still being done through the forum. There is an email address there as well.

 

This one is also on the forum:

 

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/?forum=86963

 

Cheers!

 

SS

Edited by Sub Sonic

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SubMersive

 

Pricey .... but an excellent choice!

 

Take the "plans" somewhere local, and get one made could come miles under budget.... including the cost of having someone come out and program the ampifier / integrate with mains/room.

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This page on Seatons forum

 

 http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/Product-Listing-Availability-Status-and-Pricing-3364736

 

 $1795 with the pre-owned amp version, add about $500 shipping

I didn't get slugged with import duties when i got mine a couple of years ago.

 So a tad over your $2100 budget if you get lucky.

I am still very very happy with my SubMersive as are most owners here, don't really see em come up for sale on forums here too often secondhand.

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This page on Seatons forum

 

 http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/Product-Listing-Availability-Status-and-Pricing-3364736

 

 $1795 with the pre-owned amp version, add about $500 shipping

I didn't get slugged with import duties when i got mine a couple of years ago.

 So a tad over your $2100 budget if you get lucky.

I am still very very happy with my SubMersive as are most owners here, don't really see em come up for sale on forums here too often secondhand.

thats kinda risky for me since i might endup getting charged gst lol 

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thats kinda risky for me since i might endup getting charged gst lol 

Plus Seaton's service to Aus is notoriously slow and warranty support (with a few exceptions) plain awful.

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The svs subs have truly caught my eye, was thinking of pc-13ultra, any one have any suggestions...

 

I reckon one of these or the PB-13 Ultra or 2 x PB12-NSD or an SB-13 Ultra should be all good value options.

 

http://www.deephzaudio.com/SVS%20Australia%20price%20page.html

http://www.elite-electronics.com.au/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=SVS

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any  opinion on Definitive Technology SuperCube 8000 guys? eastwood hifi recommend that and quoted me mid 1900 .. worth a look? can't seem to find a lot of comprehensive reviews ...

thanks for the suggestion :)

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