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Arthur K

"Better" phono stage suggestions.

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Hi all, new member and the very first posting in this forum.

For vinyl replay I use a Linn Sondek LP 12 / Valhalla / Rega RB 300 modified / BenzMicro MC 20E2.

Phono stage is the Musical Fidelity XLP S, quite a capable performer for the price paid ( A$ 450.00 )

Question is: If I was to buy a higher quality Phono stage, should I go the valve way or stay with solid state?

What phono stage would be clearly superior to the M.F. say up to A $ 2,000 - 2,500 ?

Just for reference, I use Audio Research LS 2 preamp and Meridian 556 power amp.

Thanks guys. :wink:

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This one of those things where I think you have to get a hold of a few and try for yourself in your system.

Don't know if it is a tube v SS decision, just "what works best", much as I'm partial to tubes.

I think to make the kind of difference that will make it all worthwhile you are likely looking at the higher end of the price scale.

Perhaps Linn's Linto is worth a try or an Acoustech PH-1P if you can lay your hands on one.

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G'day Leporello! Your first post came on my birthday so I thought I'd send you gift of some free advice. And it comes from a serious "vinyl-ophile" (a new one for Marc's FAQ's!). The shorter answer is NONE! Your combo "Linn Sondek LP 12 / Valhalla / Rega RB 300 modified / BenzMicro MC 20E2" is a very well matched affair. Your current non-rotating phono hardware is also seriously good. Your challenge is a rotating one. Am I allowed to say that? Upgrading your phono stage is, IMHO, a waste of your time and money. And I say this with just a touch of envy. Why? Because you are suggesting that you may have up to $2,500 to spend. Can you spare some?

The weakest link in your upgrade theory is your turntable. The LP12 (just like my Ariston RD 80 SL) is getting old! I run the modified Ariston with a Grace 727 tonearm and the Grace Ruby cartridge. I have, in in the back room, a Denon DL 103 with matching pre-pre-amp just itching to be worn out but... the tonearm doesn't like the mass of the Denon moving coil. With turntables, small things can make a huge difference. But before I go on, hear my philosophy on vinyl:

It has almost unlimited potential in terms of extraction of detail. Even now, digital sound comes only a distant close second. A well recorded 30 year old record, undamaged, has wigs and wags hidden in its grooves that even the best turntable combos on the market can't fully extract. And the best equates to $>20,000 US (just read the reviews!). The manufacturing equipment so far exceeded the average reproduction equipment that... we have endless adventures ahead of us.

Because of my vinyl attitude and my larger than average collection of records, I have 'baby-sitted' some very nice turntables indeed. This includes various manifestations of the LP12, a Sota, a Townshend Rock and a Clearaudio (which cost a lot more than my car!). What did I learn? Balance, balance, balance...

There are five distinct stages in the reproduction of sound in our living rooms.

1. The source - the platform itself (vinyl, CD, tape, radio etc) and the first contact device - in your case, a very well balanced phonogram.

2. The amplication hardware (pre and power, SS and valve, HT or pure stereo etc.)

3. The transducers - those poor creatures that must faithfully reproduce all that came before it, to the satisfaction of...

4. The human ear and mind - which rarely takes into account the needs of the above-mentioned but always listens for the Wife-Approval-Factor when laying out...

5. The actual listening room.

(A rude aside... 6. $Money)

My suggestion is to spend time exploring the wonderful world of modern turntables on the Internet. Our venerable platters cannot compare with modern spinning devices, although they can handle older tonearms and cartridges. The truth of this is in the hearing... so go and listen. Take DSOTM with you and teach the young sale reps something about real music. And be prepared to relagate the Linn to playing older vinyl. Lord knows it's hard to do but try and think along these lines. I can't because of No. 6.

To enlighten both me and other members of this forum, could you fill in the details for Nos. 2 & 3? It might help in broadening all our horizons.

Best of luck and have FUN! Things can only get better!

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Wow!

What a brilliant posting!

Bosereworked, thank you for taking the time to answer in such a comprehensive manner which, to me, makes a lot of sense.

To answer your questions first.

My amplification comes from:

Audio Research LS2 preamp ( a hybrid design)

Meridian 556 Power amp. - 100 w / 8 ohm - 180 w / 4 ohm

Densen DM 10 integraded

I also use two valve monoblock amplifiers each with;

4 x KT 88 output valves rated 100 w / 4 ohm

Depending on the type of Music I alternate btw Solid State and Valves

Speakers:

Main: KEF Reference Three - 2

Secondary: Rogers LS 7

The sound I get from the LP 12 is warm, detailed and engaging and leaves my Naim CD 5i digital source standing ( even though, it's a very nice sounding CD player and selected by me for it's almost analogue sound).

So then, your advice would be to look at a modern deck..

To be honest, it did crossed my mind and, a week ago, I went and had a look at the Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck but had no time to listen to it.

Given your vast experience in vinyl, what machine(s) - in your opinion - would be worth looking at?

There's a reasonably new one from Michell Engineering, the Technodeck, which is getting good reviews at the moment, but I've learned long ago, not to trust reviews alone, until I listen to the procuct myself.

.....and when it comes to money, and WAF, I am not a smoker or a drinker ( other than the odd glass of red ), so on a daily basis I direct funds that would have otherwise been spend in these habits, into the ' hi fi kitty'.

You'll be suprised how quickly it builds up! :wink: :wink:

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Damn, now I know what the problem is.

I guess I just gotta give up the Ciggies and Merlot.

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Originally posted by ajw056

Damn, now I know what the problem is.

I guess I just gotta give up the Ciggies and Merlot.

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Matter of choice and priorities, although easy for me to say being a non smoker. :wink:

I still enjoy a glass of Merlot while listening to Music, though.

You pay your money, you make your choices ajw 056

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Hey Leporello! Thank you for filling us in on the details of your non-rotating gear. Very nice indeed and I'm sure that other posters would love to discuss and/or drool over it. I know I would, but that would take us away from your very difficult question. From memory and experience, you seem to have described the "sound" perfectly. Overall, it could fairly be described as a superb Grange Hermitage. The last thing you want is to through in a "cheap red wine" (sorry, Jimmy Barnes).

Given your age, you might remember the way in which sound used to be described as being either British or American. I would consider you system as being eminently British. The whole would produce the sound you describe and this is what your ears are trained to expect (given that music is a psycho-acoustical experience). The balance is very delicate, indeed, and you don't need a 9/16" open ended to through a real spanner in the works.

From my experience, my own Linn (running what I think was an early Itok) and the Grace Ruby actually softened the sound of my "American" ss system. No detail was lost and I would have it today had not someone not offered me silly money for it (at a time when $ were hard to find). When the Ariston came by, replacing a Technics SL 1200, it seemed to compliment that American sound. Detailed, but notably different to my memory of the Linn. I think I preferred the Linn.

I have distinct recollections of baby-sitting the Sota. It was a Star but I can't recall what the Unipivot arm was. Distinct because I had young kids with itchy fingers and this table was expensive! It also sounded ? how to describe? I was running a Crown IC 150 through 2 Rotel RB980 bx's (bridged mono) into a pair of Duntech Marchis and, suddenly, everything made sense. It just extracted what was there and helped me "see" the shortcomings of the aging pre-amp. It ran the Ruby while the Ariston ran the Denon DL103 Moving coil (which I think had too much mass for the Grace 727 tonearm, when compared with my old SME 3009 - on a Thorens TD125 MkII, stolen by a "friend") I love solid, deep, honest bass but I would jump at times, thinking that the speakers were actually doubling up. They weren't. And I would summise that if a table combo can handle the really deep note modulations in vinyl with crisp authority, then the top end will follow suit. The Ariston sounded like it was transmitting across fishing line between 2 tin cans. It was truly difficult returning the Sota to her rightful owner. The song that comes to mind? Sinead O'Connor: Nothing compares to you (sung very plaintively).

Finally came the Clearaudio, a $25,000 piece of beautiful jewellery. And it lived up to its name. It came to me for only a month or so, and complete with bizarre tonearm and cartridge (strange name, can't remember). Absolutely nothing was hidden from this table. Indeed, if sound engineers could hear the end result of their handiwork, using your hardware and the Clearaudio, they would resign on the spot, glowing radioactive red. I can remember thinking that if I owned such a beast (beauty), I would end up listening to less and less music, as the glaring flaws were so thoroughly exposed. I just love listening to music too much! It was the easiest table to return, but the only one to enter into Audiophile Magazine's Hall of Fame as a Class A audiophile product. (Hint - search for audiophile turntables on the Net)

Perhaps now you can better understand why I speak of "balance"? The Sota Star was, for me, the truly viable upgrade from Thorens/LP12/Ariston because it had similar characteristics to each of these (ie a familiar sound), but with an unrivalled ability to extract what was there. And, OH! That bass!

So, at the end of (yet another) lengthy post, my thoughts on turntables...

I am not be too proud to go secondhand, providing the move is decidedly upwards in audiophile terms. Expensive turntables are rarely abused (mine is still properly serviced and it pales against modern spinners). People often upgrade because they did not live with the new table for long enough (sight unseen as it were). It remains one of the most subjective of all transcriptors, because of the various combinations of tonearm and cartridge available - and the differences these can generate.

What is decidedly upwards? IMHO, begin with the Sota Star. Then try to get a listen to a serious Class A device. SME build tables now, alongside their Series IV and V arms. Ask that it be wired to British sounding hardware. Try Clearaudio as well (though I don't know who handles high end in Sydney any more - Piramai?) When your heart starts beating again, arrange for a listen to the Michells, the Basis, VPI's and the very pretty Gyrodeck (which is upgradable from an ?affordable base model).

Then con them into letting you take some of the Class B tables home (one at a time, of course). It will take time but should be well worth the experience.

Good luck!

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A good thread

Sometimes 2nd hand can be very rewarding if a decent table can be sourced.

I run 2 systems and over half of my equip was purchased second hand from the likes of Audiogon and Ebay.If you know what you are looking for there are some true bargains out there.

I wanted a second TT for my 2nd rig I run and decided to buy a well regarded vintage table and fully modify/upgrade its components.

I chose an AR "the turntable" 1984, and purchased it in mint condition from US Ebay at under $150 US.

I then discarded the tonearm, and paid for a custom armboard,spring,stud and grommet set ( for it's suspended chassis) and a lead based mat.

I have a RB300 fully modded that I also purchased cheaply second hand that has been fitted.

I am near completion-it sounds way way better than how I got it (I use an AT OC9 cart) and all I want to do now is buy a custom made inner and outer platter, that will wait till funds allow.

All up this has cost me approx $800 thus far and around $1000 once completed.

IMO there is nothing within and around this price range that would compete. And it is fun too- do your research,find what works well with what, and go find it.I have nil regrets.

Chris :)

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AR... yes I remember. Their speakers. And I remember that turntable. Scared the proud and haughty Europeans out of their belt drives... You definitely have the right idea, soundfan, when you say that it is fun. It is, indeed, even when the decision making process hurts the head. Since I haven't seenan AR TT in years (let alone heard one) I can't comment on the sound. Sounds as though you're more than happy and THAT is what counts! They're your ears (do you like mine?).

BTW Leporello, thank you for the compliment:

"Given your vast experience in vinyl, what machine(s) - in your opinion - would be worth looking at?" Unquote

I rather think that I am no more expert than you. I went through that 'Oh for more sound' phase several times over the last few years, knowing that the weak link in my system (at the time) was the Ariston. I still have it, which should give you some idea of the challenge ahead. How's it going, anyway?

[Haven't worked out how to use the "Quote" facility yet, so if someone would care to enlighten the "bose man"?

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Hey bosereworked, thanks for the reply-your setup seems as if it would be a great listen.

I have always had a love for all things hi fi and when I got back into vinyl about a year and a half back, i decided to do some research and buy the best bang for the buck.

Wow-what a steeeeeep learning curve. Matching carts to tonearms- MM versus MC, belt versus direct drive,suspended systems,matching a phono pre to your cartridge etc etc etc-the list goes on and on.

Out of all things hi fi-surely vinyl has by far the most variables. But, learn we do and now I seem to be slowly getting there and am certainly loving the journey. I also am a fan of CD, but there is something about playing a well recorded record that is magical, and although it seems to chew up my funds way more than the other mediums,I doubt I will ever give up vinyl.

Trying to source second hand vinyl at a decent price- theres another thread in itself. :smile:

Chris

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Thank you all for the kind advice offered.

Second hand may be the way to go, but localy you don't get many s.h. turntables, let alone 'high end' ones.

I'll keep an eye on Audiogon and other relevant sites, but to transport a heavy piece of kit such as a turntable from o'seas would cost an arm and a leg, I would imagine.

Bosereworked, I couldn't possibly afford something like a Clearaudio, they're dreamland stuff.

More likely a VPI, a Michell or a Nottingham Analogue, or even an Origin Live deck.

I will propably retain the RB 300 for the time being.

..and yes, I am a 'fan' of the British sound school, I went through the various stages over the years, with large American speakers from AR, JBL and Infinity Kappa 8i and amplifiers from Threshold, Adcom and Bryston.

They all had their good and bad points, but eventually, I settled with the current system which gives me a very balanced sound, specifically for Music with 'real' instruments ( as against synthesized Music ).

Will keep you guys posted with my progress.

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Its been a long time since l spent any money on analog, making the decision a few years ago to concentrate on CD playback and spend all my budget on putting together the best front end l could. However there is a niche 'one man' company operating out of Margaret River, WA that makes pre-amps that incorporate one of THE best phono stages available if you believe what you read from other owners. The company is Supratek, see www.supratek.biz

The owner, Mick Maloney was talking at one stage about doing a stand alone phono stage and it would be worth giving him a call to see if he has or will be. l would expect it to be within your budget and its Aussie made too :) He may have a loaner that you could try.

FWIW l did own one of Micks linestage pre-amps for a while before selling and going passive.

Cheers Simon

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I understand, Leporello, about the money, I mean. I wasn't intending to suggest that you fork out on one... just that you find somewhere to listen to a Clearaudio (and other serious TT's). Not that it's critical. To simplify things, it might be easier if you can identify what you think might be missing from the sound of your current set-up - or not satisfying you. Subjective, yes, but so is music.. By having a Clearaudio for a little while I learned that I was missing a lot! However, had I bought/stolen one, I doubt I would listen to more than a dozen LP's today (I have over a thousand). And this, while running an OK only front end (I did have Duntech speakers at the time). The Sota was far more "forgiving" of poor recording or condition (ie less neutral) and more similar to what I was familiar with already. The upgrade would have been more definite, much safer and longer lasting with the Sota. Balance...

A change in cartridge is also possible (although again a volatile issue, since you can't try-before-you-buy). The more I think about it the more I remember how hard it was... Perhaps I was lucky to not have enough $ to pursue my audio fantasies...

Perhaps we could borrow from another British philosophy... softly softly. Mondie's suggestion brings us back to the possibility of trying different phono stages (again, on the try-before-you-buy basis). I would be in no hurry to give up any of my analogue without knowing, absolutely, that I preferred the new replacement over the old. I suspect that anything that you sell or trade-in will be snapped up, to disappear forever without a trace. (Ask Mondie about "the knacker's yard".)

PS Is that Beethoven as your moniker?

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Originally posted by bosereworked

I understand, Leporello, about the money, I mean. I wasn't intending to suggest that you fork out on one... just that you find somewhere to listen to a Clearaudio (and other serious TT's). Not that it's critical. To simplify things, it might be easier if you can identify what you think might be missing from the sound of your current set-up - or not satisfying you. Subjective, yes, but so is music.. By having a Clearaudio for a little while I learned that I was missing a lot! However, had I bought/stolen one, I doubt I would listen to more than a dozen LP's today (I have over a thousand). And this, while running an OK only front end (I did have Duntech speakers at the time). The Sota was far more \"forgiving\" of poor recording or condition (ie less neutral) and more similar to what I was familiar with already. The upgrade would have been more definite, much safer and longer lasting with the Sota. Balance...

A change in cartridge is also possible (although again a volatile issue, since you can't try-before-you-buy). The more I think about it the more I remember how hard it was... Perhaps I was lucky to not have enough $ to pursue my audio fantasies...

Perhaps we could borrow from another British philosophy... softly softly. Mondie's suggestion brings us back to the possibility of trying different phono stages (again, on the try-before-you-buy basis). I would be in no hurry to give up any of my analogue without knowing, absolutely, that I preferred the new replacement over the old. I suspect that anything that you sell or trade-in will be snapped up, to disappear forever without a trace. (Ask Mondie about \"the knacker's yard\".)

PS Is that Beethoven as your moniker?

No no,... none other than Woolfgang A. Mozart, in fact one of the only two surviving portraits made of him.

And my 'nickname' Leporello comes from his opera 'Don Giovanni', where Leporello is the 'faithful, aspiring' ( and often partnair in womanizing adventures) servant of Giovanni.

Where Giovanni has a bad ending ( decending to Hell), Leporello survives the pit to tell the story.

If you ever see an Opera in your lifetime, this should be the one IMHO, brilliant Music and a full on story, haven't met anyone yet that did not like it. :grin: :grin:

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I have been looking for a highend turntable at a not highend price and came across the Scheu brand from germany [called Eurolab in the USA].

Their Premier 2 TT comes as a kit,and a very nice bit of kit it is to,here's a link that shows whats involved in putting it together.

http://www.soundscapehifi.com/scheu-premier-setup.htm

and the Scheu web site

http://www.scheu-analogue.com/eng/index.html

I emailed the for a price list, as since they don't have a distributor here[somebody here will get a chuckle out of that last bit] they sell over the web direct,cost quoted to me for the Premier 2 with one arm plinith was

euro 1449 and the postage would cost euro 120.

For a TT that won an Absolute Sound golden ear award that seems a bargin

As for the phono stage upgrade,have you heard about the Graham Slee,supposed to be the bees knees from what Iv'e heard,again the only place Iv'e been able to find this one in OZ is over the web on the decibel hifi site,they also sell the Origin Live DC motor upgrade for the Linn if you didn't want to change your TT completly,that upgrade got rave reviews in Hi Fi news,here's a link to decibel.

http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/category17_1.htm

It seems to be a renewed interest in the old vinyl format,even my local dick smith is stocking new releases in vinyl,the only problem seems to be unless your in the market for the DJ type of gear the only place to get the real stuff,well a decent selection, is from specialist web based retailers.

Better that than nothing, but it would be a bit of nightmare for someone new to the quality stuff to sort out the wheat from the chaff without an older hand to guide them,especially with matching cartridges to tonearms,unless you have a Dynavector tonearm like me,you can bang any cartridge on that arm and it will sound good,but then again finding a turntable that won't buckle under the Dynavectors weight is a PITA,thats what got me interested in the Scheur.

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Good looking deck Tweaky!

Worth investigating, at this price looks like a steal.

Thanks for that mate.

Love the DIY concept too

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I forgot to mention that the prices that I was quoted included the european 16%VAT that we don't have to pay, so the actual price is quite a bit cheaper which makes it an even better deal.

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Oh, tweaky! Don't you realise that you are offering drugs to the addicted?

Checked out the website in your recent post. http://www.soundscapehifi.com/scheu-premier-setup.htm

Oh my, but aren't they good looking decks! And they seem to be up there with regard to sound reproduction...

Trouble is, I went further and checked out "customer systems". No complaints there. I was floored. Even saw a pair of BIG Krell monoblocks (I know what they can do to music!) in a serious high end system (ie BIG bucks! app. $???,000 US). Can't go there. Don't want big arguments with She Who Must Be Obeyed (The WAF multiplied by a factor of 100). So, I would rather ask: what do you guys think of "tweaking & the tweaks". Bear in mind that some audiophiles are paying $US2500 (gasp!) for ! metre audioconnects from 'Dr Guru van de Plaat'.

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I know,that the Hi Fi scene in Singapore for you.

quote:Bear in mind that some audiophiles are paying $US2500 (gasp!) for ! metre audioconnects from 'Dr Guru van de Plaat'.

Ever heard of the "Black Pearl" speaker cable from kimber $30,000 for a 5m set.

Mind you,I'm also a poster at Echo Loft, a singapore based audio forum and they are currently giving out warnings about FAKE Cardas Gold Reference cable that have suddenly started to appear amongst other brands,see the warning from the Cardas web site under the support section

http://www.cardas.com/

Also beware of Siltech cables being offered cheap,according to the guys that have bought them they turn out to be made out of Belden Video Brilliance cable.

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Hadn't heard of 'Black Pearl' speaker cable, but Kimber rings a bell. Just forked out $24,000 for a new Holden Astra for my wife. Does that count?

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Can she hear the difference if she is sitting in the car?

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OooooH! Cheaky Tweaky! Umm, Yes, she can... And so can I. $23k cash for a brand new Astra is icing on the cake. My wife has access to 1200 LP's and nearly 300 CD's. ("I've never that before, and I've heard this album a 1000 times. What JOY!). She loves it and never takes it for granted.

The question is: would I swap the Astra for ajw's totally schmick looking speakers (or Mondie's)? The short answer is NO! No way! It's called psychology. If I want to spend big dollars on schmick stereo, (and I do) I must first spend bigger dollars on a very schmick car (or on the mortgage, if that is a Damocles Sword). So, Cheaky, guess where I might be heading with this?

The sheer pleasure of buying and driving a quality automobile is no less exquisitely sensual than buying and driving a new amplifier, speakers etc. (Man, I would love to set up my own very seriously expensive turntable!) Do I want to buy aj's speakers, or Mondie's? What do you think? BUT, would I spend $23k on 5 meteres of speaker interconnect? This was my original 'gasp!' question. What do people think of tweaks and tweaking?

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We do a lot of tweaks, or modifications as we call them. Mainly to CD / SACD players and mainly to units that are already reasonably good, not $79- supermarket specials! Customers seem very happy with the results as never have we had a return to remove the mods and put it back to normal.

Speakers crossovers, pre-amp and amp (often valve) mods are another area that is growing, with customers buying better quality capacitors and other parts to replace existing parts that are either old or simply not as good.

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Hmmm. You may have missed my point, Leon. I don't have a $79 supermarket special CD player! Try a Marantz CD 80 ($1100 back in the mid-'80's and still seriously nice - must post a picture of my setup sometime soon...). This runs through a Rotel RC 1070 into a pair of Rotel RB 980bx amps. I use Monster cable (circa 199? something). And I don't see tweaks as needing hyperbole (oils ain't oils). Some people spend more on inter-connects than I paid for a bee-yew-tiful new Holden Astra. I am curious to know what others think of xtreme tweaking and value for money.

Tweaky may be cheaky, but he had the right idea. Some people do seem to go to xtremes for that last ounce of xtraction. I know about Blackgates et al and I know that the Soundlabs Group has earned its good reputation. But this is now a thread for "Oh, **** man! $US30,000 for speaker cable! What the!!!" So, what do you think?

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Yes, I understand... The extreme part is the interesting one. Most people can understand that updating electronic parts with newer one with better performance can make a difference but what about those parts that cost $$$$$.. We haven't yet sold anything at that end, however we do get asked for it.

Some of our suppliers cover all ends of the market from reasonable to ultra expensive, one has wire for over $5500- per metre!! Of course we don't stock it but people have enquired about it and how good it is. I give a general answer along the lines of "I am sure it is very good but I don't know how good it is."! I do agree that there is a substantial law of diminishing returns but in the end it really comes down to personal taste and finances.

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