Turntables - What the?

[2sheds]

What makes a turntable "black"? Or "spacious"? Or "clinical"? Why do some high end combo's "quiet", whilst the same high end cartridge on another deck can reveal every scratch on that 30 year old record?

I am contemplating a new turntable combo, and the more I know the less I seem to know. I have been reading dozens of reviews on all sorts of tables - VPI, Oracle, Pro-Ject, Rega, Linn, Rocksan, Thorens, Clearaudio, Funk, Origin Live, etc It seems that whilst turntable numbers are less, there are more brands than 20 years ago.

I currently have a Thorens TD 2001 (a faithful servant) running an Audio Technica OC9 (which need to be replaced) - OK but not stunning. I guess I would have a budget of around $2000 for deck and arm. But I want to listen to music not crackles and scratches, so I am looking for a combo which is spacious, airy, sweet, delicate, with an accurate miiddle a sweet top end and controlled bottom end.

Reviews telll me that the 'suspended' camp sound very different to the 'rigid' camp. How? I know that you have to get a balance of deck, arm and cartridge all working in harmony with your system (on a suitable table), but why can the ubiquitous RB250 and Denon 103 sound very different on seemingly similar decks ? What is the style of sound of a Pro-Ject as distinct from a Clearaudio? Or a Rega?

I know my Ortofon MC20 had a very different sound to my OC9 - warmer but not as extended. But what is your experience with turntables? What do you have? and how does it compare to your previous deck? and how did it compare to it's competitors?

As I can't personally compare all these decks, I would value your experience and feedback to narrow my search. Comments?

List of Candidates:

Pro-Ject RPM 5.2

Pro-Ject RPM 6

Pro-Ject RPM 9.1

Rega P3-24

Rega P5

Clearaudio Emotion

Funk Vector

Michell Technodec

Michell Gyrodec SE

VPI Aries Scout

Kuzma Stabi S

Origin Live Aurora

Well Tempered Record Player

Acoustic Signature Challenger

or tweak the TD2001 and install a Denon/Koetsu/? Maybe even a RB300?

[ophool]

This is as much that you should not feel you are being ignored - welcome to SNA :biggrin:

You have many questions, many of which I have not the experience to answer.

Others occur to me.

Many of the candidates on your list will severely blow your projected budget.

A number of them do not have "normal" dustcovers, this may or may not be an issue for you.

I have no idea of the quality of your phono stage, this may or may not be a bottleneck.

What sort of music you like to listen to will probably have a bearing on what you want from your cartridge.

It often seems to be that if you value dynamics, punch and excitement there are tradeoffs; if you value sweetness, air, smoothness there are other tradeoffs (unless you are talking stupid money)

Does the rest of your system give what you want from CD replay? - if so, you have a starting point, if not then perhaps no vinyl frontend will either.

Just as an indication of costs, I started with a S/H P2, around $600, upgraded platter, sub-platter and bearing around $400, SRM silent base, around $400, Technoarm about $950, clamp about $50, Achromat 5mm, about $120 so all up around $2.5K without cartridge or phono stage.

I am presently running a Denon DL 301 II into a Denon stepup transformer then a Graham Slee Reflex phono stage.

I am a known Denon cartridge groupie but at least one other member here has changed to a Denon after hearing the DL110 in his system.

My suggestion might be to try either the DL160 HOMC or the 301 or 304 first before tossing the Thorens, which seems better engineered than the basic tables available new.

My feeling is that any of these cartridges might give you a little more richness and punch than the OC9 (which I gather is another superb value for money cartridge).

What might also be worth a try is the Funk Achromat, which, to my ears, tried on 2 different tables, does what they claim.

Don't know if any of this helps or further muddies the water, but at least you know someone is listening.

Added later:

I assume the metal platter on the Thorens is some non-magnetic alloy, the Denon cartridges have strong magnets and will not work correctly on a steel platter.

WRT the DL103 and the RB250 - the DL103 is quite low compliance, designed for heavy arms, to work correctly in a medium mass arm such as the Regas it requires additional mass to be added to the headshell - the usual recommendations being between 3 & 6 grams extra this may well account for what you have heard.

[2sheds]

This is as much that you should not feel you are being ignored - welcome to SNA :biggrin:

You have many questions, many of which I have not the experience to answer.

Others occur to me.

Many of the candidates on your list will severely blow your projected budget.

A number of them do not have "normal" dustcovers, this may or may not be an issue for you.

I have no idea of the quality of your phono stage, this may or may not be a bottleneck.

What sort of music you like to listen to will probably have a bearing on what you want from your cartridge.

It often seems to be that if you value dynamics, punch and excitement there are tradeoffs; if you value sweetness, air, smoothness there are other tradeoffs (unless you are talking stupid money)

Does the rest of your system give what you want from CD replay? - if so, you have a starting point, if not then perhaps no vinyl frontend will either.

Just as an indication of costs, I started with a S/H P2, around $600, upgraded platter, sub-platter and bearing around $400, SRM silent base, around $400, Technoarm about $950, clamp about $50, Achromat 5mm, about $120 so all up around $2.5K without cartridge or phono stage.

I am presently running a Denon DL 301 II into a Denon stepup transformer then a Graham Slee Reflex phono stage.

I am a known Denon cartridge groupie but at least one other member here has changed to a Denon after hearing the DL110 in his system.

My suggestion might be to try either the DL160 HOMC or the 301 or 304 first before tossing the Thorens, which seems better engineered than the basic tables available new.

My feeling is that any of these cartridges might give you a little more richness and punch than the OC9 (which I gather is another superb value for money cartridge).

What might also be worth a try is the Funk Achromat, which, to my ears, tried on 2 different tables, does what they claim.

Don't know if any of this helps or further muddies the water, but at least you know someone is listening.

Added later:

I assume the metal platter on the Thorens is some non-magnetic alloy, the Denon cartridges have strong magnets and will not work correctly on a steel platter.

WRT the DL103 and the RB250 - the DL103 is quite low compliance, designed for heavy arms, to work correctly in a medium mass arm such as the Regas it requires additional mass to be added to the headshell - the usual recommendations being between 3 & 6 grams extra this may well account for what you have heard.[/b]

Thanks ophool.

Yes I did cover a lot of territory there! In general I am happy with the sound I get with CD (without getting tied up in the vinyl vs CD debate).

Your feedback has been good, and after much reading of various Thorens/Lenco/Garrard 301 restoration sites out there, there is probably a lot more potential out there than I realised. The TD 2001 (and it's twins the TD 320 and TD 520) was originally offered with an SME arm and there are quite a few out there fitted with Koetsu's and the like. I might look at a few tweaks to wring out it's potential before I look elsewhere. Who know's a bit of sound dampening, a rewire and a new cartridge might transform it, for a lot less money than a basic turntable.

I use a Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 into the Marantz SR18 (which is far more musical than any other AV receiver I could stomach). I have considered having a seperate system for audio only, but space doesn't permit at the moment, so the amp has to do double duties with video..

And the platter on the Thorens is made from a zinc alloy (about 3.6 kg from memory).

I have been reading about the legendary Denon's, As much as I would like to try a DL-103, it wouldn't suit my arm. The DL-160 however. is a perfect match (and less than $200 !!). Mind you the Benz Micro MC20E2, Ortofon Samba and Dynavector 10X5 look good too...

So at the moment, my thinking is to:

* Overhaul the TD 2001

* Tweak - sound deadening, cones, mat/platter change,dedicated table, rewire arm, etc

* New cartridge

* Consider new arm

* See whether I really want to spend more $$$...?

Time will tell..

[ophool]

Sounds like a good plan to me.

I don't quite follow how you are using an OC9 low output MC into a Gram Amp 2 MM stage, or are you using the Gram 3 Fanfare MC ?

On a Sansui deck with alloy platter, the best improvement I had from mats was to take off the stock rubber, replace it with a 2mm silicone mat and then the 5mm Achromat on that with a clamp.

Gave quite a marked and noticeable improvement.

The DL301 I am presently using is quite different (mechanically) from the 103, it is much more like a low output DL160 both in terms of stylus shape and compliance, so will run on an arm that will not control the 103.

There is a lengthy thread on A'gon on the DL160.

Many of the posters have tried the other cartridges you mention excepting perhaps the Salsa which is a fairly recent model.

I have tried the DV10x5 myself but not the others. My DL110 is presently on loan but should be back in a few weeks, if you are interested in trying it when it returns send me a PM.

[4heckssake]

I can't comment on many of the above TTs but just chipping in to say I get much pleasure from my AR ES-1 which i feel is up there with Thorens and Linn Sondek in the suspended jobbies. If you see one pop up secondhand, grab it.

In your case, i reckon modify your Thorens. If you like it now, a few upgrades may do more than starting afresh with a modern number.

It's all in your ears anyway. Go wit what you like.

[waricle]

Gooday 2sheds

Did you write your symphony.......?

I have used the DL160 on an RB300 with success

I currently use the DL103r with denon trannie on a SME 3009 with 6gm of extra masson my modded Transcriptor.

The DL160 is great if you only have a mm phono.

I like the Denons for their ease of alignment with their rectangular bodies but the bolt/nut being uncaptivated can be a pain.

They seem to pick up the music without too many of the crackles.

I still have the 160 sans the fold-down protector

I reckon there are two ways to go about a t/t combo with synergy

firstly copy somebody elses successful combo if it suits your gear

or, buggarise around for god-only-knows how long until you cry "enough" (my preferred method) :biggrin:

Rotsa ruc

[ophool]

Waricle,

which Denon traffo are you using with the 103R ?

I am using the AU-300LC with the 301 and have used it with the plain vanilla 103.

There is a fair range of effective mass in the SME 3009 arms depending on the specific model, as I guess you are aware.

[waricle]

Waricle,

which Denon traffo are you using with the 103R ?

I am using the AU-300LC with the 301 and have used it with the plain vanilla 103.

There is a fair range of effective mass in the SME 3009 arms depending on the specific model, as I guess you are aware.[/b]

It's an AU320

I just couldn't get it right (103r) without the extra mass.

Probably arm/cart/tt combo

[davidsss]

Sounds like you should fiddle with the Thorens, I don't know much about Thorens TTs but they are supposed to be fine.

You can pick up a decent cart for not too much money: I have an Ortofon MC15IIsuper which is now discontinued and I've been happy with it. I am considering the Audio Technica OC9 as my next cart in a couple of years as it has very good reviews for the price ($550AU).

Good luck.

DS

[soundfan]

I am considering the Audio Technica OC9 as my next cart in a couple of years as it has very good reviews for the price ($550AU).

Good luck.

DS[/b]

A couple of years back I purchased an Audio Technica OC9, and had only just run it in when I had "an accident" and snapped the cantilever, proving that alcohol and playing vinyl do not always mix well. :biggrin:

A very nice cart though, and deserving of the plaudits it receives.

Chris

[davidsss]

Sounds good, I'm also thinking of seeing if the old Supex can be rebuilt but I might get the AT OC9 when the Ortofon is worn out.

DS

[2sheds]

Sounds like a good plan to me.

I don't quite follow how you are using an OC9 low output MC into a Gram Amp 2 MM stage, or are you using the Gram 3 Fanfare MC ?[/b]

Thanks ophool

I have an Ortofon T-20 transformer for use with the OC9. The OC9 need retipping, hence my shopping for a new cartridge.

cheers

2sheds

[2sheds]

I can't comment on many of the above TTs but just chipping in to say I get much pleasure from my AR ES-1 which i feel is up there with Thorens and Linn Sondek in the suspended jobbies. If you see one pop up secondhand, grab it.

In your case, i reckon modify your Thorens. If you like it now, a few upgrades may do more than starting afresh with a modern number.

It's all in your ears anyway. Go wit what you like.[/b]

4heckssake - I had an AR turntable .... and got rid of it! Not because it wasn't any good, I just wanted a change (Micro-Seiki BL 51) . Why, oh, why...

cheers

2sheds

P.S. here is an ad from 1964

[2sheds]

Gooday 2sheds

Did you write your symphony.......?

I have used the DL160 on an RB300 with success

I currently use the DL103r with denon trannie on a SME 3009 with 6gm of extra masson my modded Transcriptor.

The DL160 is great if you only have a mm phono.

I like the Denons for their ease of alignment with their rectangular bodies but the bolt/nut being uncaptivated can be a pain.

They seem to pick up the music without too many of the crackles.

I still have the 160 sans the fold-down protector

I reckon there are two ways to go about a t/t combo with synergy

firstly copy somebody elses successful combo if it suits your gear

or, buggarise around for god-only-knows how long until you cry "enough" (my preferred method) :biggrin:

Rotsa ruc[/b]

waricle

I think I am in the buggarise school, even if I had the perfect system I would tweak and change it...

I note your comment about the crackles. As I am not about to throw out all my 60s originals, that is important to me. I have enjoyed both the Ortofon MC20 and Audio Technica OC9, but I would like to try the Denon sound,

regards

2sheds

[2sheds]

Sounds like you should fiddle with the Thorens, I don't know much about Thorens TTs but they are supposed to be fine.

You can pick up a decent cart for not too much money: I have an Ortofon MC15IIsuper which is now discontinued and I've been happy with it. I am considering the Audio Technica OC9 as my next cart in a couple of years as it has very good reviews for the price ($550AU).

Good luck.

DS[/b]

DS

I went from an Ortofon MC20 Super II to an OC9. They were both nice cartridges. The MC20 was rich and warm with a somewhat restricted top end. I then had it retipped via Garrott Brothers (the actual brothers) which opened up the topend dramaticallly. The OC9 was probably a better balanced cartridge which had better definition and delicacy without being cold. It would no doubt depend on your system and muscial preferences as to which is more your style. They were both very good cartridges.

cheers

2sheds

[snaggs]

Dont replace the OC9 with a Denon. The OC9 craps all over them. Just get a new fresh OC9 (they're a bargain price if you buy direct from the US now days). Your Thorens is the weakness, not the cartridge.

Daniel.