After a peer reviewed journal on speaker cables.

[blakey72]

Hi all,

I've been searching for days on every database out there for information on speaker cables and some sort of proof that they do or do not make a difference to sound quality. All there seems to be are magazine write ups saying no there's no difference or yes there is a difference due to materials used, conductance, resistance etc.

I've also heard claims that all amplifiers and receivers sound the same these days (unless they are broken). Surely in our day and age there must be some student out there who has done a PhD on speaker cables compared or Amps/receivers compared. I can't find any real scientific evidence.

Blake.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Hi all,

I've been searching for days on every database out there for information on speaker cables and some sort of proof that they do or do not make a difference to sound quality. All there seems to be are magazine write ups saying no there's no difference or yes there is a difference due to materials used, conductance, resistance etc.

I've also heard claims that all amplifiers and receivers sound the same these days (unless they are broken). Surely in our day and age there must be some student out there who has done a PhD on speaker cables compared or Amps/receivers compared. I can't find any real scientific evidence.

Blake.

OF COURSE speaker cables make a difference! The differences can be measurable and, under certain circumstances, audible. Sometimes, dramatically so. ANYONE who disputes those words is a fool.

Just to re-state: If the differences in cables can be measured and those measuements are within the ability of human hearing, then those differences will be audible.

Same deal with amplifiers. Measurements can reveal the differences between amplifiers. If those differences are within human hearing limits, then the differences will be audible.

[Dismord]

Hi all,

I've been searching for days on every database out there for information on speaker cables and some sort of proof that they do or do not make a difference to sound quality. All there seems to be are magazine write ups saying no there's no difference or yes there is a difference due to materials used, conductance, resistance etc.

I've also heard claims that all amplifiers and receivers sound the same these days (unless they are broken). Surely in our day and age there must be some student out there who has done a PhD on speaker cables compared or Amps/receivers compared. I can't find any real scientific evidence.

Blake.

The only evidence I've found reliable is my ears. As to difference in ' sound quality' we need to ask ourselves what would constitute 'proof'?

There are a number of peer reviewed studies on the behaviour of wires in relation to capacitance, impedance, inductance etc but these, as far as I can see, don't attempt to relate their findings to subjective observations. It would be interesting to read something that did but I'd still use my ears as the only test instrument that matters to me.

Anyone out there looking for a PH D subject?

[hochopeper]

I haven't looked but you may find something here - http://www.aes.org/e-lib/

[Cafad]

If only such a thing existed! If only!!!!!!! But I doubt it ever will.

I had a try a while ago with some speaker cable and interconnects (mostly interconnects!), the link is below, and I found a difference so small it was not worth worrying about. So small in fact that I'm not 100% sure it exists in the first place. Have a read if you're interested.

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=100679

Cheers.

[Catherine Barkley]

Ears are not reliable in the slightest, they hear what the want to hear. Peer reviewed literature is as reliable as you can get.

[Dr X]

OF COURSE speaker cables make a difference! The differences can be measurable and, under certain circumstances, audible. Sometimes, dramatically so. ANYONE who disputes those words is a fool.

Just to re-state: If the differences in cables can be measured and those measuements are within the ability of human hearing, then those differences will be audible.

Same deal with amplifiers. Measurements can reveal the differences between amplifiers. If those differences are within human hearing limits, then the differences will be audible.

I think this is all somewhat misleading information.

Surely it's a trivial exercise to make a speaker capable with a FR flat enough to be well below human perception?

Those that are not (flat) have either been made that way deliberately or through poor design and/or implementation.

[blakey72]

It's just such a debatible topic with so many people saying it doesn't make an ounce or difference on one side and people that believe have heard a difference on the other. Yet I've spent 2 days reading through databases and peer reviewed journals and can't find one definitive scientific paper that says either way. Sure magazine tests can say it's rubbish but there can write whatever is going to make them money.

I know what you're saying Dismord and I believe that is all that really matters too. If the listener believes one cable sounds better than another then it's worth it. I'd love to just be able to say either way with 100% asurity though. I am also on another forum and give advice on the audio section. I suggested that there may be an audiable difference from a blind test I just ran at home for a bit of fun and boy was I burnt. By the founder of the forum mind you.

I think if there's no hard proof around we should perhaps keep an open mind. I'm not saying to advise everyone to go out and buy $400 speaker cables. I just don't think we should be saying there's no difference get your cables from Bunnings. I will keep looking through journals though.

Thank you so much for your comments and any further are much welcomed..

Regards

Blake.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I think this is all somewhat misleading information.

Nope. It's accurate.

Surely it's a trivial exercise to make a speaker capable with a FR flat enough to be well below human perception?

It is easy enough to cause *any* speaker cable to depart from a measured ideal.

Those that are not (flat) have either been made that way deliberately or through poor design and/or implementation.

More like improper usage.

[Arg]

I see you have a level headed approach to the question. So let me explain why you will have difficulty finding academic papers on the subject.

Academic institutions are not going to assign the high cost, huge amount of time, and limited research resources, to questions that are not in dispute in the academic realm.

Also, a PhD student is only going to get the doctorate if the thesis paper advances some aspect of academic knowledge. So, "speaker cables compared" is not the subject of a doctorate that is going to get a PhD unless it shows that speaker cables DO sound different even when they have the same R, L, and C measurements. That would indeed liven up the scientific world. However, no supervisor is going to allow a naive PhD student to waste public and private resources, the supervisor's time, and the student's own time, on something that has a miraculously low chance of coming off.

On the subject of less academic investigations, enthusiasts have carried out reasonably well organised and analysed, controlled listening tests of speaker cables. Never have I read of one that provided the slightest evidence that any two speaker cables with the same R, L and C measurements can be distinguished by sound alone.

However, at this point I suggest the thread be moved to the Great Debate area, and the OP look at some of the other topics debated there which overlap with the direction this is sure to take.

[Dr X]

Good overall insight as usual Arg.

[blakey72]

Thanks for the excellent reply Arg. I definately can see your point when it comes to institions not wanting to do it. It still however leaves me wondering why these speaker cable manufacturers haven't put big money into it. I guess they're scared to find out the results???

Oh and I am sitting on the fence and being level headed with this because I can't say either way. Would this cable theory also apply to internal cabling in speakers too then?

Edited April 24, 2012 by blakey72

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Thanks for the excellent reply Arg. I definately can see your point when it comes to institions not wanting to do it. It still however leaves me wondering why these speaker cable manufacturers haven't put big money into it. I guess they're scared to find out the results???

Something like that. Cable differences are quite small, when compared to rooms and speakers. Proper attention to details can reduce the impact of audible prolems with speaker cables.

Oh and I am sitting on the fence and being level headed with this because I can't say either way. Would this cable theory also apply to internal cabling in speakers too then?

Of course. Cables are cables. Doesn't matter where they are.

[b.d]

Here's an even better one for debate: spade terminals.

I was reading yesterday of a speaker cable that costs just shy of 10k for a terminated one meter length. Additional meters cost $3.5k. So one effectively pays $6500 for spades.

Either a Nobel prize up for grabs here or a case for the fraud squad.

[Catherine Barkley]

It still however leaves me wondering why these speaker cable manufacturers haven't put big money into it. I guess they're scared to find out the results???

You got it in one.

[Dismord]

Ears are not reliable in the slightest, they hear what the want to hear. Peer reviewed literature is as reliable as you can get.

Well then I'll just sell all my audio gear and sit in front of the fire reading the results of empirical tests and get off on square wave screen shots.

Who needs music or ears?

[b.d]

If there was an established science behind it there would be companies in China reverse engineering the $10k cable for 1% of the cost I imagine. I suspect that it helps to appear to be reinventing the wheel in order to justify the exorbitant prices as "R&D".

[Dismord]

I see you have a level headed approach to the question. So let me explain why you will have difficulty finding academic papers on the subject.

Academic institutions are not going to assign the high cost, huge amount of time, and limited research resources, to questions that are not in dispute in the academic realm.

Also, a PhD student is only going to get the doctorate if the thesis paper advances some aspect of academic knowledge. So, "speaker cables compared" is not the subject of a doctorate that is going to get a PhD unless it shows that speaker cables DO sound different even when they have the same R, L, and C measurements. That would indeed liven up the scientific world. However, no supervisor is going to allow a naive PhD student to waste public and private resources, the supervisor's time, and the student's own time, on something that has a miraculously low chance of coming off.

Why not a PH D on 'Neurosychology and Suggestibility in Perception of Recorded Music'?

[andyr]

Here's an even better one for debate: spade terminals.

I was reading yesterday of a speaker cable that costs just shy of 10k for a terminated one meter length. Additional meters cost $3.5k. So one effectively pays $6500 for spades.

Either a Nobel prize up for grabs here or a case for the fraud squad.

This sort of woolly thinking is exackerly why there is so much dispute about the sound of cables.

If 1m costs $10K and 2m costs $13.5K, what that says IMO is - sure, there might feasibly be a substantial cost in the spades themselves but the:

* setup process, and

* marketing

* packaging, and

* distribution costs

... to make a cable 1m long will not be much less than for a cable 2m long. Hence there is a large premuim on that first metre.

Regards,

Andy

Edited April 24, 2012 by andyr

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

This sort of woolly thinking is exackerly why there is so much dispute about the sound of cables.

If 1m costs $10K and 2m costs $13.5K, what that says IMO is - sure, there might feasibly be a substantial cost in the spades themselves but the:

* setup process, and

* marketing

* packaging, and

* distribution costs

... to make a cable 1m long will not be much less than for a cable 2m long. Hence there is a large premuim on that first metre.

Regards,

Andy

Precisely. A client gave me some Nordost Odin interconnects to terminate (to RCAs) awhile back. It took a full day's work! They are the most diabolically difficult cables I've ever termninated.

[sjay]

If there was an established science behind it there would be companies in China reverse engineering the $10k cable for 1% of the cost I imagine. I suspect that it helps to appear to be reinventing the wheel in order to justify the exorbitant prices as "R&D".

so what are all the fakes then?

[blakey72]

Hows this for a comment from this founder of this other forum who seems to think he knows everything about audio.

"

As another alternative, the Denon AVR-1612 will do everything you require, and sounds exactly the same as the Cambridge (CA-650R) and the NAD (T748). (All modern amplifiers that aren't broken sound identical. Amplification is a simple circuit, and near-perfect implementations have been the norm for all major brands for at least the last 15 years.)

I appreciate that mainstream brands like Denon don't feel like they should sound as good as boutique, audiophile brands like Cambridge or NAD, but the cold reality is that the boutique brands trade on how satisfying they seem, not how they actually perform in real life".

[b.d]

That's a pretty good rate for a days work and a shiny box.

I was being a bit facetious, only a bit though. I have an idea how economies of scale work but I still have nothing but contempt for the makers of $10k cables. I see it as nothing but a piss-taking money grab however you spin it. Did they feel the world had a need for another $10k cable, did they listen to the thousands of other cheaper cable on the market and decide that none were good enough, that the fact their hifi didnt sound like the real thing was that it was that particular wires fault? I struggle to think less interesting job in audio or less worthwhile job in the grand scheme of things that spending ones day listening for changes to test tracks that border on the imaginary. Really, what a proper waste of one's time on earth.

[RockandorRoll]

Yes it certainly is getting heated in that bloody Whirlpool thread. Come and rest your head in here for awhile Blakey.

My opinion on cable has always been, spend what you think is necessary. I wouldn't expect the guys on Whirlpool to be spending thousands or even hundreds on the latest JB Hi FI deal.

[sjay]

Yes it certainly is getting heated in that bloody Whirlpool thread. Come and rest your head in here for awhile Blakey.

My opinion on cable has always been, spend what you think is necessary. I wouldn't expect the guys on Whirlpool to be spending thousands or even hundreds on the latest JB Hi FI deal.

its called wingepool for a reason.