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3 x Rel Predator 1508 or SVS PB 4000 or JL Fathom 113 ? Ok let’s try F212v2!


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Have been wasting cash on Utilities bills and Mortgage repayments  but now thinking to spend some cash wisely on HT subwoofer upgrade

 

System is focal Electra 1008Be, CC1000be, 2x 1007be surrounds plus a Whise 319a sub.  Denon 8500 driving.  Room is 8m x 4m x 2.5m plus adjoining room.

 

The Whise is totally amazing but even it can’t quite deliver the final few Hz.   So I am thinking to supplement or replace it.  Problem is most subwoofers are horrible flabby things.  Especially most standard ported subs.  Sealed subs usually sound better to my ear hence my interest in the F113 or for the same price I could have 3 Rel 1508.  Being in lockdown I can’t venture out to try myself and it’s hard to get a good comparison when they are in different showrooms etc.

 

Has anyone experience or thoughts on multi Rel vs SVS vs F113.    .

 

 

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the SVS do good output and can go reasonably low both which i suspect will tick boxes for you... but i just never find them as clean, tight and controlled as powerful sealed subs.. 

 

and personally the fathom would be my choice ... keep the whise ... it will make a good slave sub ...

 

I have no experience with the rel predator to comment... but 3 ? 

 

properly locating, setting up and Eq'ing 1 ... and then 2 subs is challenge enough... 3 ...would need some sophistication to do

 

I think you run a flagship denon AVR from memory... it will do 1 or 2 sub setup and EQ to perfection.... but not 3 so I would stop at 2 if possible...

 

also given have one decent sub already... id only add one really great sub... that kicks hard and goes low, clean and controlled... the fathom ticks that box

 

another to consider is the velodyne DD18+ same price as the JL, and these are absolute monsters ...will pump out decent volume clean controlled and with series punch. beautifully finished too like the fathoms so will mix in well with the other gear you have :) 

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The Rel are designed to be stacked. I could have 3 for the price of the F113..  curious if anyone has tried them.  And yes the Denon 8500 has the second sub output I can use.

 

image.jpeg.85dd2908cb3eadbad01e21f6a9db7db9.jpeg

 

 

 

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I was looking at a similar list of subs. The JL Fathom sounded amazing on demo, very controlled, lots of sound pressure in a bigger room than you have, Just lots of $$$. I listened to the REL Predators in a 6 stack, in a huge floor showroom, so it didn't achieve the sound pressure, though was very controlled and lots of DB as you would expect. 

I'm basing my purchase decision off a few respected people I have had conversations with. I was advised against the REL's by a few retailers that sell them, Not sure if thats because they get a better margin on the other subs they were trying to suggest or real advice. That was enough to take them off my list.

For the same money as what 2 x REL Predators was going to cost me I ended up going for a couple of Rythmik F18's - Sealed, Big drivers, solid amp, small enclosure for their size and well engineered with the Servo style system 

I cant comment on how they sound just yet as I'm still waiting for delivery on them.  Just my 2c - If you are happy with 1 sub I'd go the Fathom, I wanted 2 and couldn't justify that $$$ spend. Hoping the Rythmik's turn out well.

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its amazing the difference rooms make and positioning... good the rel can be stacked ! if going stacked there is also Rel 212...

 

https://www.selby.com.au/rel-212-se-1000w-12-subwoofer-gloss-black.html?

 

edit also the SE at $4999...probably 2 for price of one JL... or velo DD+18

 

https://klappav.com.au/products/212-se?_pos=6&_sid=bb2335a65&_ss=r

Edited by betty boop
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i dont have any experience with those subs but i can read so hop over to avs forums and find some opinions on the pb4000, its basically shite. unfortunately here we are so limited with big subs and prices are a joke.

 

1 big sub in that sized room? would have thought 2 minimum.

 

too bad peter at Deep HZ Audio no longer stocks P.S.A subs

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What an enviable position you are in to be able to choose between these subs.

 

I have ownership experience with JL F113’s and F212’s, and similarly with a lot of REL’s including the number 25 flagship. I have also listened to quite a few PSB subs.

 

I haven’t yet had a chance to listen to the REL HT series.

 

What I can say is that the REL (higher end models) and JL’s are both excellent for music/2 channel based systems. But they sound very different in their musical presentation’s. The REL often sound like they emit a blanket of bass across the floor of the whole room, which becomes the foundation for the rest of the sound. Ie they are great for vocal, classical and folk music in particular.

 

The JL Audio F series are incredibly dynamic with very accurate bass transients, ie they push bass sounds around the room like cannon balls. Ie they are great in particular for edm, rock and dynamic music.

 

Hope those descriptions make sense.

 

I can’t help but think that the JL would probably be more impressive for home theatre sound. But I would be interested to hear the new HT series predators. The good thing about the REL’s is the stack ability, ie you could start out with two, then go to four, ie two stacks of two etc.

 

I would be trying to get a demo of the REL HT vs the JL Audio’s. Melbourne HiFi has both brands for example.

 

Having said that, if your system is mainly home theatre and not music. The single JL F113 V2 at around 10k is not a good option from a value perspective. Your room is pretty big and will allow two or more subs to work the room.

 

So if the room is mainly home theatre I think the money would be well spent on two bigger sealed subs. The Rythmik 18’s or PSB SB Ultra 16’s come to mind as very hard to beat in a mostly home theatre context. They would likely also be pretty decent for music. Dual predators may also be in this group.

 

As hard as a sub demo can be, I think it would still provide enough to show the differences between the brands.

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@kudeta2003 would be interested in your thoughts once you have the rhythmic subs.  I would prefer to be able to hear them somewhere.    So many subs are quantity with no quality.  Where did you find them?  There does also seem to be a bit of an online grumble against Rel.  Not sure if it’s just the selective stuff I’m reading or if it’s real/fair. I guess if it’s online it’s almost certainly not fair or balanced.

 

@Ray H thanks for the great feedback.  From what you say the F113 sounds like it may be what I am after.  I already have the Whise 319a so adding a 113 may be a good option. Giving the cannonball I’m missing.  Question is can I make them play nicely together.   Also what was the difference between the 113 and the 212?  
 

Keep the feedback coming:  although seems I’m going to have to go visit some dealers. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steam said:

 

@kudeta2003 would be interested in your thoughts once you have the rhythmic subs.  I would prefer to be able to hear them somewhere.    So many subs are quantity with no quality.  Where did you find them?  There does also seem to be a bit of an online grumble against Rel.  Not sure if it’s just the selective stuff I’m reading or if it’s real/fair. I guess if it’s online it’s almost certainly not fair or balanced.

 

 

 

Happy to oblige, depending on where you are in Melbourne, you may be able to come by & listen.

There is a local agent in Melbourne - Richard @ Audio Salon. He has the rights to import into Aus, otherwise you can go the diy Kit option with Redspade Audio.

I saw/heard too much or the REL bashing as well as SVS bashing so stayed away. Though there is always going to be negative detractors online.

 

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Hi @Steam

 

i had omitted comment on the Whise 319a.

 

I do recall this being a very well regarded sub on its release. After doing a bit of reading, I would be surprised if you can’t make it work with another sub, particularly in a front and back sub scenario. I would put the whise up the back and depending on what the new sub is, up the front. Basically I think selling the whise for a low amount and trying to replace it for reasonable $ would be very difficult, nigh on impossible. I saw the Whise goes down clean to 19hz and goes pretty loud. I have tried to think why you would want to replace a pretty capable sub like the Whise and I keep coming back to you likely want a very clean sealed sub like the JL to get the sound you are after.


The difference between the JL Audio F!13 and the F212 is a pretty significant increase in performance. Interestingly I found in a small to medium sized room 1 x 212 sounded better than 2 x 113’s. In a bigger room (like yours) two 113’s 

Was probably a better option.

 

2 x F113’s on a scale of 1-10 for me was probably a solid 7.5, 2 x F212’s was a solid 9, frankly incredible. So the F212 to me is well worth the extra $. 
 

I think you should shoot for an F212 coupled with the Whise, particularly if you can get it second hand. Second option would be dual F113’s. After these the next option I would consider is SVS SB16 Ultra or large Rythmik.

 

If you want to buy JL new, you could do worse than Lifestylestore up here in Sydney. Speak to Jamie and mention I said you would give him a good price.

 

The JL E series I have also owned, they are great in small-medium sized room, but I don’t believe they would be a good option for your big room.

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3 hours ago, Steam said:

 

 From what you say the F113 sounds like it may be what I am after.  I already have the Whise 319a so adding a 113 may be a good option. Giving the cannonball I’m missing.  Question is can I make them play nicely together.   Also what was the difference between the 113 and the 212?  
 

Keep the feedback coming:  although seems I’m going to have to go visit some dealers. 

Yes ; some of these are designed more for output rather than bass extension ie the rel 212's 

21Hz at -6dB in room response ; would be a faster rolloff than the whise I suspect ?  The fathom or the new velo dd models would have very low distortion due to their construction and driver excursion control dsp ..

Another point is both of these have parametric auto eq so that costs more[ the velo has auto crossover and phase etc too - better than ever ]

Quote

Eight fully parametric equalizers can be manipulated for smooth, even bass output. Crossovers, slopes, subsonic filters and phase can be adjusted for the primary settings as well as for the five presets while getting feedback in real-time. 

 . If your happy with the denons audyssey your choices open up . Just note the dd+ models have exceptional bass extension and a spec thats only 3db down at 14hz ; that is deep :)

 

Quote

Frequency Response: 14.6Hz to 120Hz +/-3 dB

 

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@Ray H I don’t necessarily want to replace the Whise.  It’s a very capable sub although getting long in the tooth now. Certainly better than any regular under $3 to 5k sub I have come across. It is not flabby like a regular ported sub.  So doesn’t make sense to sell it.  But then it’s 15 years old and probably needs the driver surround replaced to bring it back to new.  I am investigating this.

 

 

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I have two mk 1 F113 fathoms and they easily trounced a pair of 13” Rythmiks and a pair of Legend subs prior to that.

I haven’t heard Rel so can’t comment on that comparison.

Have you seen the Whatmough sub for sale in the Classifieds? I think it’s the same as your one. Two of those would be terrific. From memory when Whise got in financial trouble they teamed up with Whatmough and just copied the 319a sub it was that good. 

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51 minutes ago, gat474 said:

I have two mk 1 F113 fathoms and they easily trounced a pair of 13” Rythmiks and a pair of Legend subs prior to that.

I haven’t heard Rel so can’t comment on that comparison.

Have you seen the Whatmough sub for sale in the Classifieds? I think it’s the same as your one. Two of those would be terrific. From memory when Whise got in financial trouble they teamed up with Whatmough and just copied the 319a sub it was that good. 

The whatmore sub in the classifieds is a version of the Whise 119.  Much smaller.  A bargain for sure and I did think about it.  

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Sorry, my mistake, I had it in mind that yours was the smaller one. Very impressive then and you’ll have to search pretty hard to do better than yours. Was yours called the ‘Profounder’?

I am probably wrong here but was the driver made by Lorantz in Melbourne?

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4 minutes ago, gat474 said:

Sorry, my mistake, I had it in mind that yours was the smaller one. Very impressive then and you’ll have to search pretty hard to do better than yours. Was yours called the ‘Profounder’?

I am probably wrong here but was the driver made by Lorantz in Melbourne?

Yes on both counts. I need to contact Lorantz and see if they can help with a replacement or even updated driver to give it another 15years of life.

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1 hour ago, Steam said:

@Ray H I don’t necessarily want to replace the Whise.  It’s a very capable sub although getting long in the tooth now. Certainly better than any regular under $3 to 5k sub I have come across. It is not flabby like a regular ported sub.  So doesn’t make sense to sell it.  But then it’s 15 years old and probably needs the driver surround replaced to bring it back to new.  I am investigating this.

 

 

yep i wouldn't look to replace.... but dont be fooled with subs and age... my velo DD15s are 15 years old but good as new.... I think with subs particularly tech hasn't really progressed that much over last decade or so.... similar really with speakers... understand though if its got a roll surround that maybe needs replacing but if rubber that is unlikely to be the case :)

 

re subs and volume its an interesting thing... i have two DD15s. and honestly wiht my area that is 5.5x6m that opens up to larger 5.5 to 10m wit only light doors in between even one of the Dd15s is good enough.... I think as described earlier it is the sealed subs with a LOT of power behind them.... they punch pretty hard but also go quite low. and very clean and controlled with their servo control.  know someone else with a velo DD18plus and personally id take that over a JL113 even in a large space as you have i cant imagine needed much more than the powerful 18" sealed sub of this ilk.  

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8 hours ago, hopefullguy said:

i dont have any experience with those subs but i can read so hop over to avs forums and find some opinions on the pb4000, its basically shite. unfortunately here we are so limited with big subs and prices are a joke.

 

1 big sub in that sized room? would have thought 2 minimum.

 

too bad peter at Deep HZ Audio no longer stocks P.S.A subs

PB4000 is shite??? 

I'm sorry but that's rubbish, it's essentially a PB13 Ultra with more power and features.

There ARE better value prospects in the USA dB/$$, but for 99.99% of the world's population, the PB4000 is still an excellent subwoofer. 

It's funny how some on AVS crap on SVS, but forget to mention the added benefits... Incredible customer service, app control, built in parametric EQ, 45 days trial period with free shipping both ways,multiple tuning options etc

 

Out of the options listed by the OP, objectively speaking, the PB4000 would decimate them performance wise. 

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not sure on the SVS cr@pping on on AVS/US but the problem is here whether base model or upper model they just dont seem really great value anymore... look at the pb4000 is a $1899 usd and here it is a nearly $4k aud prospect...

 

main problem with the SVS here is actually us forums I think folks here read stuff over there, folks raving about them but thats partly for what pay for them there I think... 

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34 minutes ago, betty boop said:

not sure on the SVS cr@pping on on AVS/US but the problem is here whether base model or upper model they just dont seem really great value anymore... look athlete pb4000 a $1899 usd and here it is a nearly $4k aud prospect...

 

main problem with the SVS here is actually us forums I thin,k folks here read stuff over there, folks raving about them but thats partly for what pay for them there I think... 

With that in mind, what sub actually  outperforms the PB4000 for the same $$$ in Australia? 

 

 

Third party measured at 112db @  20hz @  8% THD measured at 2m outside

And 115dB+ from 30hz to 100hz at single digit distortion percentages is still really really good performance numbers

 

 

Plus the warranty and features, I still feel it's a decent value option

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hi JB "value" always in eyes / mind of beholder.. so we likely see things differently... eg if ask me pb4000 ... good value ? id say nah... i'll stick with what i have ..happy for high power, good depth, low distortion servo designs the subs i have  are. and keeping mind well past stage of warranty even consideration :D

 

your post is certainly good for OP to consider....

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12 minutes ago, jamiebosco said:

With that in mind, what sub actually  outperforms the PB4000 for the same $$$ in Australia? 

 

 

Third party measured at 112db @  20hz @  8% THD measured at 2m outside

And 115dB+ from 30hz to 100hz at single digit distortion percentages is still really really good performance numbers

 

 

Plus the warranty and features, I still feel it's a decent value option

It really depends what you value.   As I said earlier a lot of subs can go loud but they sound horrible.  Slow, flabby, Ill defined.  Unfortunantly it’s expensive to get output AND quality.  In general sealed subs seem to have less output but sound better IMO.  If I get the chance I will try and find a PB4000 and see what it can do.  

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2 minutes ago, Steam said:

It really depends what you value.   As I said earlier a lot of subs can go loud but they sound horrible.  Slow, flabby, Ill defined.  Unfortunantly it’s expensive to get output AND quality.  In general sealed subs seem to have less output but sound better IMO.  If I get the chance I will try and find a PB4000 and see what it can do.  

PB4000 would not be one of those, it measures ruler flat to 20hz and below at very low distortion numbers, has a very good driver in a well built, large box and bulletproof limiters. 

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I have had a few svs subs and i can see why they are popular.    Their US pricing and trade-back offer makes it attractive in the US ofA but here in Oz, thier value proposition is overrated IMHO.   It is a safe brand to get as resales are sought after.

 

I recently took a punt on dual rel HT1003s.  I wasnt expecting much but boy they didn't disappoint. 10inch drive with 300 class d watts? In my mid sized room (4000cubic feet),they delivered a lot of clean output and punch for HT.  This is with the crossover set to 50hz and the vol at 10 o'clock.  Im also a believer that getting the right sized sub for the room is key.  Getting too big of a sub (driver+output) just causes more issues with uneven bass.  

 

From memory, one youtuber reviewed 1,2, and 4 rel predator 1508s and said that the best bang for buck was the 2 subs.  4 was hard to get an even calibration and the db gain wasnt worth the extra coin put in...

 

 

 

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