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Filling Out The Bottom End


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G'day Good People 

 

I have been living with my system for a little while now, and so far have resisted the urge to make too many changes.

 

Currently running:

 

Sources:

Stanton st 150 TT with Ortofon 2M Red

Google TV into TV and then Optical out for streaming 

 

Amp:

PS Audio Sprout100 

 

Speakers:

Orpheus Aurora 2.2 

 

Aside from lusting after a new  turntable and waiting on a DAC to hook up my Raspberry Pi for Tidal connect, I am thinking a sub might give me a great return on the money, looking at older REL T1,2,3.

 

Was keen to hear what people thought and if anyone had experience 

 

For reference I listen to everything. World, Folk, Hip Hop, Pop, Metal, Funk, Soul  you name it 

 

Thank you!

Edited by OldMatePete
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You didn't mention the first sub in your "Currently running" list, Peter - but, yes, a 2nd sub would undoubtedly be a "Good Thing"!  :)

 

I'm slightly confoosed by your description "Stanton st 150 TT with Ortofon 2M Red and Google TV into TV and then Optical out for streaming"?

 

Do you mean your 2 sources into your Sprout100 are:

  • Stanton st 150 TT with Ortofon 2M Red
  • and Google TV into TV and then Optical out?

 

Andy

 

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You should undoubtedly measure your room response and try to better integrate your existing sub before you spend more pezos. Unless your room is larger than 5x5 - it is very unlikely you need a second sub. Now the theory of "stereo" subs vs one sub is an interesting one but deal with the 1st order room response first before you get into 2nd order effects like stereo imaging at low frequencies.  

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28 minutes ago, Decky said:

You should undoubtedly measure your room response and try to better integrate your existing sub before you spend more pezos. Unless your room is larger than 5x5 - it is very unlikely you need a second sub. Now the theory of "stereo" subs vs one sub is an interesting one but deal with the 1st order room response first before you get into 2nd order effects like stereo imaging at low frequencies.  

 

Whilst I agree with measuring - so as to integrate the existing sub better - I totally disagree with your statement that a 2nd sub is unnecessary in a room <25 m^2.

 

My current room is just a bit <21 m^2 and IMO, my 2nd sub is essential - not for increased bass dB level ... but for getting a symmetric soundstage and better in-room bass response.

 

Andy

 

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16 hours ago, andyr said:

You didn't mention the first sub in your "Currently running" list, Peter - but, yes, a 2nd sub would undoubtedly be a "Good Thing"!  :)

 

I'm slightly confoosed by your description "Stanton st 150 TT with Ortofon 2M Red and Google TV into TV and then Optical out for streaming"?

 

Do you mean your 2 sources into your Sprout100 are:

  • Stanton st 150 TT with Ortofon 2M Red
  • and Google TV into TV and then Optical out?

 

Andy

 

 

Andy, I buggered that up.

 

Serves me right for waiting till Friday afternoon you use my brain.

 

I don't have a sub at all, this would be my first!

 

I guess something happened between my brain, fingers and keyboard, or maybe I am subconsciously getting ahead of myself.

 

You are correct on thew sources (Ill edit that aslo)

 

The Turntable is pretty average buts its working for now,

And the Google TV handles streaming of Tidal.

 

Thank you and sorry for the confusion.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Decky said:

You should undoubtedly measure your room response and try to better integrate your existing sub before you spend more pezos. Unless your room is larger than 5x5 - it is very unlikely you need a second sub. Now the theory of "stereo" subs vs one sub is an interesting one but deal with the 1st order room response first before you get into 2nd order effects like stereo imaging at low frequencies.  

 

Hi Decky 

 

This is something I have been considering out of pure interest,

I did waste a bunch of money on a useless audio engineering degree, so I might just pull out some text books on acoustics.

 

Do you have any recommendations for how to go about measuring?

 

Cheers 

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28 minutes ago, OldMatePete said:

 

Do you have any recommendations for how to go about measuring?

 

 

 

You need a PC, USB audio interface (with 48V phantom PSU, and a measurement microphone. Software is free (REW is a good start). 

 

I use Audix TM-1 (https://www.audiotechnik.com.au/product/audix-tm1/) and a Focusrite Scarlett USB interface. 

REW you can find here https://www.roomeqwizard.com/; they also have some recommended hardware. 

 

You can also go full monty and get a Clio 12 setup (http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=2829

 

Lots of choices. 

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25 minutes ago, Decky said:

 

 

You need a PC, USB audio interface (with 48V phantom PSU, and a measurement microphone. Software is free (REW is a good start). 

 

I use Audix TM-1 (https://www.audiotechnik.com.au/product/audix-tm1/) and a Focusrite Scarlett USB interface. 

REW you can find here https://www.roomeqwizard.com/; they also have some recommended hardware. 

 

You can also go full monty and get a Clio 12 setup (http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=2829

 

Lots of choices. 

 

Does one need something as expensive and complicated as this? What about just a good old UMIK-1 from miniDSP plugged directly into a computer via USB in conjunction with REW especially as @OldMatePete just seems to be starting out with room measuring.

 

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

 

Edited by Satanica
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Say I end up measuring my room,.

I could end up with a magic perfect room , I could end up with nasty room modes (havent noticed anything yet audibly) or I could find out that the room is not support low frequencies out on my floor-standers.

 

Am I then buying a sub (specification wise) based off any of the rooms characteristics,

Or am I buying a sub based off the likely crossover point of my floorstanders and then using the measurement for integration/placement?


 

also for reference the room is 3.9 x 5.5 and I’m setup on the long side 

 

 

 

 

Edited by OldMatePete
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1 hour ago, OldMatePete said:

Say I end up measuring my room,.

I could end up with a magic perfect room , I could end up with nasty room modes (havent noticed anything yet audibly) or I could find out that the room is not support low frequencies out on my floor-standers.

 

I think I read once that the chance of having a virtually perfect room are one in a million or two or something really small.

 

1 hour ago, OldMatePete said:

Am I then buying a sub (specification wise) based off any of the rooms characteristics,

Or am I buying a sub based off the likely crossover point of my floorstanders and then using the measurement for integration/placement?

 

No, a good subwoofer is a good subwoofer. It comes down to how much space you can accomodate, what level of performance you want to achieve and how much money and time you want to put into this "project". The room measurements will tell you what you're currently getting bass wise and from this what benefits you'll probably get, or probably not get by adding a decent subwoofer.

 

HINT: Getting good output to 30Hz is good and getting good output to 20Hz is great. Its not about having subwoofer(s) or not having subwoofer(s) it is about having a level of performance. As an option you may want to consider simply upgrading your speakers to ones that have significantly better bass performance.

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3 hours ago, Satanica said:

What about just a good old UMIK-1 from miniDSP plugged directly into a computer via USB in conjunction with REW

Agreed

But I would add a decent mic stand with a boom to any measurement rig

555028387_micstandwithboom.thumb.jpg.f16fc3f2cd94119ff7c7d84b72e23069.jpg

A mic stand with a boom makes it much easier to put your measurement mic in the correct spot...

...IMHO essential for doing the "sub crawl" - ie placing the sub where your ears would be at the listening position, and taking room measurements with the mic at each place your sub is likely to go, and choosing the location for your sub that has the smoothest measured bass response.

 

The "sub crawl" method is quicker/easier than moving your sub to lots of different spots - but you do need to have the sub where your ears/head would be...ie not on the floor next to where you would sit...

...just in case you're dubious that this approach would actually work - it's based on science and the principle of "superposition", and I've used it lots...

IME when using the "sub crawl" method, placing the sub in the mic spot that measured best, swap the sub into that spot, and place the mic at the listening position, you get a very similar measurement...obviously not identical due to experimental error, a sub is bigger than a microphone etc etc...

 

Sub placement is very important (as is main speaker placement).

IMHO a single well placed sub can provide better "in room" bass than "more than 1 sub" if the subs are poorly placed...worst case subs can work against each other creating "suckout".

 

cheers

Mike

 

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2 hours ago, Satanica said:

No, a good subwoofer is a good subwoofer.

I completely agree with this ^

 

Some comment on musical subs vs home theatre subs - I would say get the sub that meets your SPL requirements down to the frequency you want at low distortion.

 

That said, more than 1 sub, providing they're well placed, will assist in meeting SPL requirements and reducing distortion (as each sub won't need as much output)...but only needed if a single sub doesn't achieve smooth bass at the listening position at your SPL target without running out of excursion/output.

 

cheers

Mike 

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To get a rough idea of frequency response why not download some audio freeware such as this Audio Tools onto an iPad or phone, not sure about Android  Then get some pink noise via your streamer and use the mic on your device to get a response. Pretty sure it won’t be absolutely accurate but also pretty sure it will give you a good idea where your nulls and peaks are.CCD2CA77-E0C0-4D18-BC23-931B7B20FF45.thumb.png.8ccfc3dc976e26016d431b2857be03d8.png

 

You get graphs like this which you can save and compare, I found it very usefulE9D10658-344D-4983-AF04-89BBC255C5AC.thumb.png.e9ac0b9b366ee2ec284fe5647a75c483.png

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5 hours ago, Satanica said:

 

I think I read once that the chance of having a virtually perfect room are one in a million or two or something really small.

 

 

No, a good subwoofer is a good subwoofer. It comes down to how much space you can accomodate, what level of performance you want to achieve and how much money and time you want to put into this "project". The room measurements will tell you what you're currently getting bass wise and from this what benefits you'll probably get, or probably not get by adding a decent subwoofer.

 

HINT: Getting good output to 30Hz is good and getting good output to 20Hz is great. Its not about having subwoofer(s) or not having subwoofer(s) it is about having a level of performance. As an option you may want to consider simply upgrading your speakers to ones that have significantly better bass performance.

 

Thanks Satanica 

 

I really think you have managed to sum it up nicely, 

From the perspective of finding the level of performance I am after I really do want to add more depth in the low end to make lower level listening more engaging 

 

Ill start having a hunt through the 2nd hand market for something that delivers well around the 20Hz mark

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These things always seem to get complicated. Sure there are many factors to consider but, practically speaking, just buy a decent sub and start tweaking. Get 2 if you can but even just one will open up a whole new world.

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15 minutes ago, OldMatePete said:

I'll start having a hunt through the 2nd hand market for something that delivers well around the 20Hz mark

If you actually want "in room" bass down to 20Hz at "reasonable" SPL, then I suggest going larger is better - like a 15" sub.

 

Hoffman's "iron rule" always applies for subs - pick any 2 of:

  1. low bass capability
  2. small box
  3. efficiency (ie power required)

You can get low bass from 12" sub drivers - I run 2 x 12" drivers in a large tapped horn enclosure (approx 400 litres) with the OEM amps (2 x 375W) - I chose Hoffman's rules 1 and 3.

Tapped horn sub enclosures only have a narrow band of operation, but high efficiency within their passband.

"In room" I get down to 20Hz with some room gain at decent SPL.

 

Sub drivers smaller than 12" will struggle to get down to 20Hz "in room" at reasonable SPL even with big boxes and EQ.

 

cheers

Mike

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39 minutes ago, warweary said:

J Darko has an interesting step into subwoofer territory.

thanks WW - interesting video, and I also listened to the podcast linked on the tech involved.

 

There's lots of tech in that tiny box!

 

The podcast references the concept of Hoffman's iron rule, ie the significant extra power needed as the box size reduces and efficiency drops.

Very interesting having overlapping voice coil formers to save space - and that the larger voicecoil having more wire but further from the centre pole piece had similar force to the smaller voicecoil which is closer to the centre pole piece.

Their use of geometry in the driver surround to cope with the pressure was clever also.

Then the feedback sensing to cater for the non-linearity of the air spring in such a tiny box

They also monitor the output and reduce the LF output for signals that could damage the unit

 

The podcast explains why the high pass filter for the LS50 Wireless at 70Hz integrates with the sub with the low pass on the sub set at 45Hz - there's DSP over the top applied and natural driver/box roll-off involved.

 

Overall an impressive sub in a tiny package.

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16 hours ago, almikel said:

If you actually want "in room" bass down to 20Hz at "reasonable" SPL, then I suggest going larger is better - like a 15" sub.

 

Hoffman's "iron rule" always applies for subs - pick any 2 of:

  1. low bass capability
  2. small box
  3. efficiency (ie power required)

You can get low bass from 12" sub drivers - I run 2 x 12" drivers in a large tapped horn enclosure (approx 400 litres) with the OEM amps (2 x 375W) - I chose Hoffman's rules 1 and 3.

Tapped horn sub enclosures only have a narrow band of operation, but high efficiency within their passband.

"In room" I get down to 20Hz with some room gain at decent SPL.

 

Sub drivers smaller than 12" will struggle to get down to 20Hz "in room" at reasonable SPL even with big boxes and EQ.

 

cheers

Mike

 

I was wondering how to approach the driver size topic

 

Thanks for the guidance 

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Those old RELs are great for a small room. I bought a secondhand REL T2 a couple of years back, with the Neutrik Speakon cable. Best high purchase I’ve made since my original NAD 7020e. It really lifted my music system - far, far more than a new amp did. 

 

I keep mine dialled pretty quiet, and as a small box it doesn’t go that low either; it rolls off fairly fast below 30hz and was officially rated only to 26hz. But that seems enough. You notice the absence immediately when you turn it off. I’m planning to pair it soon with some KEF LS50s, which famously drop away below 70hz.

 

It’s also a rather more beautiful object than most subs. I’m keen to find a second one with a cherry finish - but they’re hard to come by.

 

FWIW, the T2 was The Absolute Sound's 2007 Subwoofer of the Year. Review here:

https://rel.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/T-2-The-Absolute-Sound.pdf

 

For small systems that need the bottom end filling in, it seems perfect.

Edited by David Walker
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I prefer a simple approach, your room is your room so unless you’re a hifi nutter I wouldn’t go changing. (I guess in a hifi forum environment that makes me the nutter 😖)

From frequency charts I see your speakers start to roll off at around 130Hz and are 15dB down by 20Hz. So, if you add a sub just make sure it has an adjustable frequency range so your not doubling up much above 130Hz. Then as @lemarquis suggested, start tweaking, mostly volume and placement till your happy. Good luck.

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