Apple Music Discussion Thread

[Chill3]

Sonos have Apple Music on the device no need for airplay, so its possible and allowed by Apple just as it is with Tidal/Qubuz. My understanding is that few have done it as thill now Apple Music was all compressed.  I expect (hope?) that we will see mainstream streamers integrate Apple Music in coming

months.

[betty boop]

59 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Agree that suitable hardware for streaming hi-res is currently their shortcoming for people like us. So if they want to complete the new quality music streaming package, they need to get into mainstream streamers at hi-res.

 

that said airplay 2 capped at 24/48 will probably do just fine for most, but I still don’t like the device being the player.

 

can’t have everything they say, and for no extra $$ they are off to a great start!

 

hardware will be the clincher... good article from digital trends, updated as off 8 June

 

What you need to listen to lossless audio and Dolby Atmos on Apple Music

https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/how-to-listen-to-lossless-and-dolby-atmos-on-apple-music/

 

I expect as they say this will spur on dac sales  at very least...

 

eg the little aster and kern or THX onyx usb dacs,

 

and have a good little cheat sheet,

 

Apple Music playback format cheat sheet

Catch all that? If not, here’s a quick look at different hardware combinations and how they affect what you can hear.

iPhone with wireless earbuds or headphones

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: No
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: No
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: No
• Dolby Atmos Music: Yes

Apple Watch with wireless earbuds or headphones

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: No
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: No
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: No
• Dolby Atmos Music: No

iPhone with wired earbuds/headphones and Lightning adapter

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: No
• Dolby Atmos Music: Yes

iPhone with wired earbuds/headphones and hi-res external DAC

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: Yes
• Dolby Atmos Music: Yes

Android phone with wired earbuds/headphones and hi-res internal DAC

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: Yes
• Dolby Atmos Music: No**

Android phone with wired earbuds/headphones and USB-C adapter

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: No
• Dolby Atmos Music: No**

Android phone with wired earbuds/headphones and hi-res external DAC

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: Yes
• Dolby Atmos Music: No**

Android phone with regular wireless earbuds or headphones

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: No
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: No
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: No
• Dolby Atmos Music: No**

Android phone with aptX HD- or LDAC-capable wireless earbuds or headphones

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: Yes*
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: Yes*
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: Yes*
• Dolby Atmos Music: No**

iPhone or Android phone with a Bluetooth speaker

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: No
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: No
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: No
• Dolby Atmos Music: No

Lossless-capable Wi-Fi speaker

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: No
• Dolby Atmos Music: No

Hi-res lossless-capable Wi-Fi speaker

• Lossless 16-bit/44.1kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/48kHz: Yes
• Lossless 24-bit/192kHz: Yes
• Dolby Atmos Music: No

*You won’t get a fully lossless signal, but much more of the detail will be preserved than with non-aptX HD- or LDAC-capable wireless earbuds/headphones.

**At launch, Dolby Atmos Music is not supported on Android devices. Apple says this feature will be coming “later.”

 

 

[blybo]

I'm now listening via Sennheiser HD599 wired headphones to the Made for Spatial Audio from macbook pro (11.4 OS) to an iFi Zen dac. Sounds fantastic but wonder if that will get old and I'm not familiar with most of the "new" pop music. I haven't done the Apple TV updates yet. That will be interesting. I have a dedicated HT non atmos 7.2 set up but generally don't listen to music in there except to get the subs shaking. My usual 2.1ch system also has an Apple TV but feeding my Moon Neo ACE's optical via the TV's output.

 

EDIT: Just listened to the Marvin Gaye example on headphones and then via Apple TV in my 2.1ch rig and Apple are playing games using the thinnest, bass shy stereo master of What's going on they can find to over exaggerate the improvement. Sure it sounds really good, but I'll have to do back to back of the same tracks via Tidal before rejoicing... and I'm a long time Apple believer, but becoming increasingly cynical of any companies marketing claims these days.

Edited June 9, 2021 by blybo

[betty boop]

28 minutes ago, blybo said:

EDIT: Just listened to the Marvin Gaye example on headphones and then via Apple TV in my 2.1ch rig and Apple are playing games using the thinnest, bass shy stereo master of What's going on they can find to over exaggerate the improvement. Sure it sounds really good, but I'll have to do back to back of the same tracks via Tidal before rejoicing... and I'm a long time Apple believer, but becoming increasingly cynical of any companies marketing claims these days.

the marvin gaye i am sorry to say is a good example of gimmick with a full atmos system...

 

more modern tracks eg the billy eilish fair better with a sound engineer clearly not going crazy.... but also there are examples of modern mixes which are a bit silly... vocals coming from back and ceiling and all that  

[betty boop]

if people are looking for a more enveloping experience even with the non atmos tracks... ie the 2ch ones.... if have the capability in your AV processor can suggest  trying either its-

 

neural X

 

or auro3D

 

 

up mixers to upmix the 2.0 pcm lossless track to 7.1.6 as am doing here

 

this is far more convincing than some of the whacko atmos tracks ! and the auro3D especially is actually very good... again if looking or an enveloping experience....

 

but we do have the choice of 2ch or 3D/atmos... so choice is there ... upto end user preference i'll say...

[blybo]

34 minutes ago, betty boop said:

the marvin gaye i am sorry to say is a good example of gimmick with a full atmos system...

It was more the very poor stereo master that was used to show "what we usually listen too" before the spatial 2ch audio was heard. Remember I was only commenting on listening via a headphone rig or via Apple TV in my 2ch system.

[betty boop]

1 minute ago, blybo said:

It was more the very poor stereo master that was used to show "what we usually listen too" before the spatial 2ch audio was heard. Remember I was only commenting on listening via a headphone rig or via Apple TV in my 2ch system.

just letting you know the atmos on a full atmos system is pretty naf... in this case... some will like the gimmick factor though...  

 

user preference ....

[Esoterica]

It's funny reading all the positive feedback here, after I watched a YouTube video earlier where Darko shits on it from a great height. He goes through all the connection possibilities and then reveals a 'gotcha' moment. A reason why that connection type can't output hi-res, thus nullifying this new lossless service.
 

His points are probably valid, to an extent. I don't know or haven't researched to know, but we have discussed this here. The limitations of bluetooth etc. He says airplay is limited to 24/48kHz. That's still great. Ime bit depth is more important.

 

Anyway, he clearly has an axe to grind and it convinced me that I really dislike him. He does mention a couple of ways to achieve output of lossless, but has another reason it's a 'gotcha' smh.

[John0001]

Now that Apple Music has lossless hirez capability I'm sure it won't be long before streamer manufacturers integrate it and some of these shortcomings are addressed. I also hope Apple work on the Music application on the desktop side, it's not terrible but there's a lot of room for improvement. But for zero additional cost, for a complete lossless library, I'd say Qobuz, Tidal et al will have a tough sell on their hands moving forward.

[betty boop]

9 minutes ago, Esoterica said:

His points are probably valid, to an extent. I don't know or haven't researched to know, but we have discussed this here. The limitations of bluetooth etc. He says airplay is limited to 24/48kHz. That's still great. Ime bit depth is more important.

I posted a cheat sheet above re limitations as well, but its not end of the world ! 24/48 lossless is still good and a step forward from the lossy we had before... 24/48 via apple tv sounds great ! 

 

bluetooth and airplay 2 is not the only means to connect either ... am keeping an open mind

 

10 minutes ago, Esoterica said:

Anyway, he clearly has an axe to grind and it convinced me that I really dislike him. He does mention a couple of ways to achieve output of lossless, but has another reason it's a 'gotcha' smh.

I dont understand his axe to grind... should be right into it... i havent seen his video as generally not a great fan either of smug approach...  but did he not explore the direct dac for 24/192 as apple suggest you need ? they are being upfront about it ...  i posted in screen shot yesterday it says clearly you will need a dac... not sure what the gotcha or is 

[betty boop]

8 minutes ago, John0001 said:

Now that Apple Music has lossless hirez capability I'm sure it won't be long before streamer manufacturers integrate it and some of these shortcomings are addressed. I also hope Apple work on the Music application on the desktop side, it's not terrible but there's a lot of room for improvement. But for zero additional cost, for a complete lossless library, I'd say Qobuz, Tidal et al will have a tough sell on their hands moving forward.

 

dac sales are going to go up ...

 

agree on the cost side...and i havent come across one track that isnt lossless yet....

 

my tidal is gone... not paying for that...

[Esoterica]

39 minutes ago, John0001 said:

Now that Apple Music has lossless hirez capability I'm sure it won't be long before streamer manufacturers integrate it and some of these shortcomings are addressed.

Exactly. It's not as if hardware won't change to suit. Darko started the video talking about Bluetooth headphones and wired connection from an iPhone. Sorry mate, but I wouldn't have even expected that. It'd be nice, but can ANY streaming service do that? I can't imagine, since it's the device that is limiting, although I think he said an iPhone can do it, just that he can't stand the necessary 2 dongle situation.

 

31 minutes ago, betty boop said:

I posted a cheat sheet above re limitations as well, but its not end of the world ! 24/48 lossless is still good and a step forward from the lossy we had before... 24/48 via apple tv sounds great !

Yep I saw that and I agree with the rest. He made it out like this will make no difference. Maybe he's being paid by Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz? I mean I agree with his point re: Apple Music not being integrated into streamers etc, being an issue, but as John said, this can easily change in the future. 
 

I haven't tried this new Apple Music service yet, but look forward to it now, to see just how much of a difference, if any, there is.

 

On your point about Darko mentioning a direct connection to dac, he did, but said sound from 3.5mm port on macbook was not good sound quality (? mine has usb-c so not a problem, same for others with newer macs etc) and/or that most people don't want a computer in their hifi rack. He just comes across as wanting to make up reasons for not liking it.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Esoterica
Added some

[Dropbear67]

19 hours ago, Kasman said:

But the important question is: can anyone hear an improvement in sound quality?

 

AAC is actually a really good codec and so the improvements may be marginal unless you have resolving gear..

[betty boop]

27 minutes ago, Esoterica said:

On your point about Darko mentioning a direct connection to dac, he did, but said sound from 3.5mm port on macbook was not good sound quality

well thats a bit daft way to do ? why would he even go that way ? usb to dac i would go and how i do it...?

 

29 minutes ago, Esoterica said:

mine has usb-c so not a problem, same for others with newer macs etc) and/or that most people don't want a computer in their hifi rack. He just comes across as wanting to make up reasons for not liking it.

 

agree usb - c is what i use... no problem 

 

agree most/many wont want a computer in the hifi...but i only use this way for head-fi and its fine for that  am often on the computer anyways ....

 

 

 

 

[Dropbear67]

39 minutes ago, Esoterica said:

On your point about Darko mentioning a direct connection to dac, he did, but said sound from 3.5mm port on macbook was not good sound quality (? mine has usb-c so not a problem, same for others with newer macs etc) and/or that most people don't want a computer in their hifi rack. He just comes across as wanting to make up reasons for not liking it.

 

To be fair , Darko is all about Hi-fi for people who are not very computer literate, so he is probably making the point (without me having seen it) that plugging stuff into the headphone ports of computers is a very bad idea and you're much better off with an external dac to get decent audio.

[blybo]

John Darko is simply not a fan of proprietary connections, hence his preference for Android phones. I feel he should really be calling out companies like Dragonfly for not making lightning connectors for their portable DACs

 

He also completely avoided the use of laptop/office headphone rigs. Funnily enough he doesn't see an issue with usb-c even though most will need an adapter/dongle to connect a usb-c port to a usb dac, that usually use the type B plugs.

[Esoterica]

I think I'll give this a good demo today. Weatherzone says the "feels like" temperature here is 1 celsius and I've never seen it say snow is possible ..above 500m that is. I live above that so I may see snow where I live for the first time ever. 
 

Got the fire going but still have cold legs and feet. I work from home in my workshop usually, but working in there today with no heating is not a proposition I fancy.

[Topman_Chief]

45 minutes ago, betty boop said:

On your point about Darko mentioning a direct connection to dac, he did, but said sound from 3.5mm port on macbook was not good sound quality

Maybe Darko meant the optical out? From Apple's site: 

Some Macs also support optical digital audio output via the headphone audio port. Use a Toslink cable with a Toslink miniplug adapter or a fibre-optic cable with a 3.5 mm plastic or nylon optical plug. To check if optical digital audio is available on your Mac, see the Apple Support article Play high sample rate digital audio on Mac computers.

[Esoterica]

35 minutes ago, Dropbear67 said:

 

To be fair , Darko is all about Hi-fi for people who are not very computer literate, so he is probably making the point (without me having seen it) that plugging stuff into the headphone ports of computers is a very bad idea and you're much better off with an external dac to get decent audio.

He comes from an audio purist pov, and I agree that wifi controllable sources are more desirable. For me they certainly are and I stream 100% of the time lately, because I just couldn't be bothered putting an LP or CD on. I will one day, but haven't for quite a while. Anyway, the point is, it's so convenient to just find something to play on Tidal or AM (services I'm currently using) and hit play. Having to get out of my chair to do so, would defeat the convenience factor, so I agree on that point. 

[Esoterica]

22 minutes ago, blybo said:

Funnily enough he doesn't see an issue with usb-c even though most will need an adapter/dongle to connect a usb-c port to a usb dac, that usually use the type B plugs.

Interesting. I haven't looked into usb sound quality considerations, but bought a usb-c to usb-b (printer style) cable to demo my macbook air as a source, but also to use with a printer. I don't know if it's the cable, the protocol (if that's the right term?) or something else, but when using this connection, I often got regular static like noise artifacts. The cable was the cheapest on amazon so... overall I think the SQ was better than controlling my streamer over wifi, but for the unwanted (albeit barely noticeable) artifacts.

[BugPowderDust]

Some interesting notes on bitrates and DSP that Apple put in the signal path in some particular use cases: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/apple-musics-lossless-and-hi-res-mess-r1022/ 

 

I imagine this will be a moving target for a while until Apple work out what the market wants / needs and the gremlins all come out.

[Esoterica]

I just updated Apple TV 4K and there's some interesting new features. Well I haven't noticed this before so it may not be new, but you can control balance. This is good in my use case, as my favourite chair just happens to be in the worst spot for sound quality lol. I purposely sit elsewhere if I desire the best audio at the time.
 

Also, I played Olivia Rodrigo's "Good 4 U" over airplay to my CXN v2 streamer, then thought I'd compare to how it sounds via the ATV4K and it played it in Atmos surprisingly. I'm not sure how I feel about music in stereo vs. atmos, but it's interesting and different.

 

For those with home theatre setups as well as, or incorporated into their music systems, we generally play music exclusively through our music amps. This is where Apple Music and Apple TV make things interesting, as they usually cannot be connected directly to your music amp, but via an AVR. Mine is connected to my music amp via HT bypass. While the audio may not be as good as directly from an "audiophile" amp, the ability to listen in Atmos may be an advantage.

[betty boop]

4 minutes ago, Esoterica said:

I'm not sure how I feel about music in stereo vs. atmos, but it's interesting and different.

 

am in same camp...has good potential... some tracks are well done... others gimmick...

 

so definitely in the "interesting and different" category for now..

 

at least we have the choice  

[blybo]

I wonder if the next iteration of Apple TV will include a usb or toslink connection to allow direct connection to DACs. Back to the Future? I feel Apple would resist this as it would be an admission that removing the port a few years back was a mistake.

[JB82]

I wonder if someone like Wired4 Sound could make a modified version with USB out