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Hey Guys,

I moved into a new house and decided to treat myself to a new sub while i was at it.
The room is 3600x3600 with the roof being 2590 high.

I know squares are very bad for home theater rooms but not much i can do about that lol.

 

Is there anyone in Melbourne who could come and help me sort this issue out? Happy to pay or donate beer etc lol, just would really like a bit more out of my setup.

Thanks!

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Can you please provide a sketch of your room, with position of the sub and speakers? Can you treat the room? Do you still have the previous sub?

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Posted (edited)

@Snoopy8

I no longer have the previous sub, but when i move to certain areas of the room its putting out huge amounts of bass and where I am sitting its much much less.
Treating the room sadly will not be an option.


There room isn't very big so i don't have a lot of room to work with.

 

Ive run the room correction software and it sounds almost the same.

 

Ive tried lowering the crossover to 60hz and that helped a little bit but not much.

Thanks!

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Edited by Scott Field
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2 minutes ago, Martin Bailey said:

Try swapping towers and sub position? Then possibly angle sub across the room?

Can give that a go, will that cause an issue with 1 tower being closer to the middle than the other?

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If you bring both towers in beside the cabinet, even centralise if possible. Then you could test the sub in either side to see if it makes a difference.

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7 minutes ago, Martin Bailey said:

If you bring both towers in beside the cabinet, even centralise if possible. Then you could test the sub in either side to see if it makes a difference.

Sadly because the room is so small, thats as far as i can bring the right tower in.

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Posted (edited)

if that doesnt help move the sub to the left hand side of the couch, push it back in the corner.

 

then try the other side of the couch.

Edited by hopefullguy
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Posted (edited)

Certainly agree, you don't have much room to work with.  As already suggested, put the sub in your listening position (dump in on the couch where you sit), put on a test track and walk/crawl around the room to find the best bass response.  That's where the sub will provide the best response.  Will it end up in a convenient position, probably not but as you're aware, the dimensions of your room are terrible for low frequency response.

 

Given your restrictions, I'd guess the sub will likely perform best (better) along the wall under the window, likely in the middle.  Try different positions along that wall till you find something you're happy with.  Failing that, either add another subwoofer, treat the room (cost benefit, unlikely worth it) or you could put the sub in the ceiling as another option.

 

image.png.06029e62ef99825dc2d08e6d8b5838a3.png

Edited by xPLAYRZx
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8 minutes ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Certainly agree, you don't have much room to work with.  As already suggested, put the sub in your listening position (dump in on the couch where you sit), put on a test track and walk/crawl around the room to find the best bass response.  That's where the sub will provide the best response.  Will it end up in a convenient position, probably not but as you're aware, the dimensions of your room are terrible for low frequency response.

 

Given your restrictions, I'd guess the sub will likely perform best (better) along the wall under the window, likely in the middle.  Try different positions along that wall till you find something you're happy with.  Failing that, either add another subwoofer, treat the room (cost benefit, unlikely worth it) or you could put the sub in the ceiling as another option.

 

image.png.06029e62ef99825dc2d08e6d8b5838a3.png



If it does end up along that wall, does it matter which way it is facing?

 

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Posted (edited)

No, direction doesn't matter, LFE is omni-directional, but understand you may want it facing a particular way for aesthetics.  As long as you tune/calibrate for the new position it will be fine.

Edited by xPLAYRZx
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1 minute ago, xPLAYRZx said:

No, direction doesn't matter, LFE is omni-directional, but understand you may want it facing a particular way for aesthetics.  As long as you tune/calibrate for the new position it will be fine.

Sorry for the stupid question but why would one ever need to adjust phase on the sub then?

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6 minutes ago, xPLAYRZx said:

As long as you tune/calibrate for the new position it will be fine.

 

^^ This.  So you can integrate it better with your other speakers.

 

From SVS -

 

"The phase control in a powered subwoofer allows the user to add electrical delay to the incoming signal. The phase control operates over a range of 0 to 180 degrees. Adding delay to the subwoofer signal can sometimes help the subwoofer to integrate better with the loudspeakers in the room. Setting the phase control to 180 degrees reverses the polarity of the subwoofer. In some application where the subwoofer is placed on a wall opposite from the speakers, reversing the subwoofer polarity can yield better in-room low frequency response. When you reverse the polarity of a subwoofer, the subwoofer’s driver moves inward while all other speaker drivers in the system are moving outward.

 

All SVS subwoofers feature a continuously variable 0-180 phase control which allows the most complete range of adjustment in small increments to achieve the best sound possible. Other brands of subwoofers may only offer a simple 0/180 phase switch (also referred to as a polarity switch), which not as useful as a true variable phase control."

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1 minute ago, xPLAYRZx said:

 

^^ This.  So you can integrate it better with your other speakers.

 

From SVS -

 

"The phase control in a powered subwoofer allows the user to add electrical delay to the incoming signal. The phase control operates over a range of 0 to 180 degrees. Adding delay to the subwoofer signal can sometimes help the subwoofer to integrate better with the loudspeakers in the room. Setting the phase control to 180 degrees reverses the polarity of the subwoofer. In some application where the subwoofer is placed on a wall opposite from the speakers, reversing the subwoofer polarity can yield better in-room low frequency response. When you reverse the polarity of a subwoofer, the subwoofer’s driver moves inward while all other speaker drivers in the system are moving outward.

 

All SVS subwoofers feature a continuously variable 0-180 phase control which allows the most complete range of adjustment in small increments to achieve the best sound possible. Other brands of subwoofers may only offer a simple 0/180 phase switch (also referred to as a polarity switch), which not as useful as a true variable phase control."

Thanks!

 

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4 hours ago, Scott Field said:

I no longer have the previous sub, but when i move to certain areas of the room its putting out huge amounts of bass and where I am sitting its much much less.
Treating the room sadly will not be an option.

There are a number of ways to reduce the impact of room modes in the room, which is causing the nulls.  One of the ways is to move things around, as suggested by others in the above posts.  You have already ruled out room treatment.  I was hoping you still have your old sub because dual subs will help.   Suggest getting a second sub, because it will likely be the most effective way left with the square room.

 

Also consider getting the Anti-Mode 8033 from deep Hz Audio to integrate the dual subs.

https://www.deephzaudio.com/DSPeaker Pricing Page.html

 

4 hours ago, Scott Field said:

Ive run the room correction software and it sounds almost the same.

What room correction software are you using? Room correction, by itself, is likely not enough...

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To add further suggestions, assuming dual sub isn't an option (that would really help) is to try to move speakers and subwoofer away from the front wall, which may help with cancellation due to boundary interference.

 

You can also try fiddle around sub's distance on your AV receiver. There is possibility that bass cancellation is occuring at around crossover frequency. E.g. for crossover set at 80hz, region predominantly around 60-100hz would be affected.

 

If you want to adjust sub's distance, I'll guess that between your sub to your couch is 3.0 meters. Start from there then increase it slowly to hear whether bass response improves.

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18 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

There are a number of ways to reduce the impact of room modes in the room, which is causing the nulls.  One of the ways is to move things around, as suggested by others in the above posts.  You have already ruled out room treatment.  I was hoping you still have your old sub because dual subs will help.   Suggest getting a second sub, because it will likely be the most effective way left with the square room.

 

Also consider getting the Anti-Mode 8033 from deep Hz Audio to integrate the dual subs.

https://www.deephzaudio.com/DSPeaker Pricing Page.html

 

What room correction software are you using? Room correction, by itself, is likely not enough...

 

I would prefer not to buy another sub purely just due to cost, if i did get a 2nd sub though do i just place it on the side of the tv?

 

I just used the Yamaha setup on the amp.

10 hours ago, BuzzingBee said:

To add further suggestions, assuming dual sub isn't an option (that would really help) is to try to move speakers and subwoofer away from the front wall, which may help with cancellation due to boundary interference.

 

You can also try fiddle around sub's distance on your AV receiver. There is possibility that bass cancellation is occuring at around crossover frequency. E.g. for crossover set at 80hz, region predominantly around 60-100hz would be affected.

 

If you want to adjust sub's distance, I'll guess that between your sub to your couch is 3.0 meters. Start from there then increase it slowly to hear whether bass response improves.

Thankyou ill give this a go.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Scott Field said:

... when i move to certain areas of the room its putting out huge amounts of bass and where I am sitting its much much less.

 

This is actually quite normal but it does not mean you have any huge NULLS at the main listening position but only a microphone will really tell you if and at what frequency range.


If you're wanting more bass you could set your speakers to LARGE instead of SMALL if you have not already done so.

Edited by Satanica
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3 hours ago, Satanica said:

 

This is actually quite normal but it does not mean you have any huge NULLS at the main listening position but only a microphone will really tell you if and at what frequency range.


If you're wanting more bass you could set your speakers to LARGE instead of SMALL if you have not already done so.

Sadly i do not have a mic or anything to test with :(

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9 minutes ago, Scott Field said:

Sadly i do not have a mic or anything to test with :(

 

Sadly, you might not get a decent improvement unless you do something drastic.

Have you considered my suggestion regarding the speaker size setting in your amplifier/receiver?

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Oh no - you need at least 4 subs in that room - one is not enough!!! LOL 🤪

 

No seriously - 3x3 standard bandroom cannot cope with that much air pressure. I used to over-excite mine even with a small sealed 10" sub let alone a proper HT system.  I am currently testing a Paradigm S2 that I just upgraded (only one speaker mind you), a speaker that does not extend below 80Hz and I feel I have too much boominess in my workroom (which is 3x3). 

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11 hours ago, Scott Field said:

I would prefer not to buy another sub purely just due to cost, if i did get a 2nd sub though do i just place it on the side of the tv?

You can try that location or behind the couch. If cost is an issue then you could get cheaper sub and hide it behind the couch 😉.

 

IMO get a mic if you've exhausted all options or really dedicated to tackle smooth bass response

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11 hours ago, Satanica said:

 

Sadly, you might not get a decent improvement unless you do something drastic.

Have you considered my suggestion regarding the speaker size setting in your amplifier/receiver?


I have previously tried running them as large but it didnt sound that great.

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11 hours ago, Decky said:

Oh no - you need at least 4 subs in that room - one is not enough!!! LOL 🤪

 

No seriously - 3x3 standard bandroom cannot cope with that much air pressure. I used to over-excite mine even with a small sealed 10" sub let alone a proper HT system.  I am currently testing a Paradigm S2 that I just upgraded (only one speaker mind you), a speaker that does not extend below 80Hz and I feel I have too much boominess in my workroom (which is 3x3). 

In my current listening room, 5x4x3 but with openings to the side walls.  I am using 2 rel1003s, yeah i know, small 10s, 300w class d (meh).. but it fills the room very nicely and evenly with tight bass.  I found 1 was uneven, placed off left or right off my ambeo soundbar.  I used to think bigger+more power is better, but its all about integration into the listening space.

 

@Scott Field - i would get hold off a umik-1, REW, and a minidsp and do a series of measurements re: placement, phase, etc to integrate it well.  Or contact Red Spade Audio for some consultation.

 

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1 hour ago, MrBurns84 said:

In my current listening room, 5x4x3 but with openings to the side walls.  I am using 2 rel1003s, yeah i know, small 10s, 300w class d (meh).. but it fills the room very nicely and evenly with tight bass.  I found 1 was uneven, placed off left or right off my ambeo soundbar.  I used to think bigger+more power is better, but its all about integration into the listening space.

 

@Scott Field - i would get hold off a umik-1, REW, and a minidsp and do a series of measurements re: placement, phase, etc to integrate it well.  Or contact Red Spade Audio for some consultation.

 

I may bite the bullet and buy the mic soon if I cant get any improvement with the above suggestions.

I just dont want to end up spending a heap of money on suggestions that may or may not work, because in the end they may add up to the price of a 2nd sub lol.

Thanks!

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Scott Field said:

I may bite the bullet and buy the mic soon if I cant get any improvement with the above suggestions.

I just dont want to end up spending a heap of money on suggestions that may or may not work, because in the end they may add up to the price of a 2nd sub lol.

Thanks!

 

A second sub might make things worse in fact it could be harder to integrate.

The potential problem with multiple subs is if they are not setup well they can work against each other by cancelling each other out.

Which highlights another potential problem that a subwoofer or subwoofers can also work against your mains by cancelling some of each other out.

Even with a crossover of 80Hz and your speakers set to SMALL your speakers still have plenty of bass to produce (mid bass and upper bass) so the problem assuming there is one could be more in the speaker zone.

Too hard to work it out by ear so a UMIK is an invaluable tool with REW.

Edited by Satanica
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12 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

A second sub might make things worse in fact it could be harder to integrate.

The potential problem with multiple subs is if they are not setup well they can work against each other by cancelling each other out.

Which highlights another potential problem that a subwoofer or subwoofers can also work against your mains by cancelling some of each other out.

Even with a crossover of 80Hz and your speakers set to SMALL your speakers still have plenty of bass to produce (mid bass and upper bass) so the problem assuming there is one could be more in the speaker zone.

Too hard to work it out by ear so a UMIK is an invaluable tool with REW.

To eliminate the speaker zone I could set the crossover to 100hz?

If i was to get a UMIK id also need a tripod aswell?

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45 minutes ago, Scott Field said:

To eliminate the speaker zone I could set the crossover to 100hz?

 

No, but by doing this you may get an improvement so I think it is worth a try.

Midbass is from about 80Hz to about 150Hz.

Upper bass is from about 150Hz to 250Hz.

 

48 minutes ago, Scott Field said:

If i was to get a UMIK id also need a tripod aswell?


https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

 

Looking at the website it appears to me you only get a "mini" tripod.

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1 hour ago, Satanica said:

 

No, but by doing this you may get an improvement so I think it is worth a try.

Midbass is from about 80Hz to about 150Hz.

Upper bass is from about 150Hz to 250Hz.

 


https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

 

Looking at the website it appears to me you only get a "mini" tripod.

Sorry for the stupid questions.


Even if i run rew and see the dips / peaks etc, I really have no way of fixing them apart from trying to move the sub around the room and re running it right?
 

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one of the things i see with the room is if place is built like most places ... those walls might as well not be there :D and is a bit too close to room opening....

 

so in essence consider the sub sitting in middle of nowhere.. this doesnt work that well for subs... its like putting the sub in the middle of the room. 

 

I would seriously try moving the sub from where it is to other side ie next to right hand side mains... for starters as might energise room more evenly... 

 

the other problems is see is the L&R mains are squished right next to side walls... literally no room to breathe...

 

then also see a problem that the couch and main listening position is pretty much back to wall... also not a great place to be... what happens is that is usually a region of gain and any eq setup is likely going to kill the bass ...

 

all postulation... without some measurement hard to say anything really...

 

its an unfortunate thing with these media rooms you end up with a setup like this... no wall to one side at all...

 

its a bit of a problem room and will take a bit of work in my opinion to make some thing of it...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Scott Field said:

Sorry for the stupid questions.


Even if i run rew and see the dips / peaks etc, I really have no way of fixing them apart from trying to move the sub around the room and re running it right?
 

 

No need to be sorry and of course you'd be wanting solutions such as:

 

  • Move your subwoofer
  • Move your speakers
  • Move your chair forward
     
  • An additional DSP for your subwoofer (miniDSP) with better room correction software
  • A different AVR or Processsor with better room correction software for your subwoofer and entire speaker set
Edited by Satanica
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@Red Spade Audio will come out and measure your room with 1 sub and find the best 2 locations in your room to even out bass response. He did that for me years ago as I had much more bass to the left of the room than centre or right. We ended up with 1 sub at the rear centre location, and front right corner.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Scott ,

Place the sub in the listening position. Play a track with bass.......walk around the room listening ( including standing at both left and right hand corners ).  Best spot for sub placement is the spot where you hear improvement in the bass. I have tried this method and it works without spending any more money. If this does not work than Umik-1 is a great tool as  well.

Good Luck.

Edited by gillmaverick
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2 minutes ago, gillmaverick said:

Hi Scott ,

Place the sub in the listening position. Play a track with bass.......walk around the room listening ( including standing at both left and right hand corners ).  Best spot for sub placement is the spot where you hear improvement in the bass. I have tried this method and it works without spending any more money. If this does not work than Umik-1 is a great tool as  well.

Good Luck.

 

Not a bad idea but the thread starter should remove all room correction so the system is uncorrected when searching for better acoustic placement.

The same goes for measuring.

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6 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

Not a bad idea but the thread starter should remove all room correction so the system is uncorrected when searching for better acoustic placement.

The same goes for measuring.

Yupp ,

All processing need to be off when playing. I think AV receivers have pure direct button which does that but I could be wrong.

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Hi All,


I did some small testing tonight and got small minor improvements, increasing the sub distance and upping the crossover to 90hz on the AV settings helped a bit too.

Basically ive found from 20-40hz the sub will shake the whole room and it sounds amazing, anything over 60hz it just seems to fall flat on its face.

Ill do some more testing and see what i can achieve.


Im waiting to wall mount my TV and then ill also have Red Spade come out.


Thanks!

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I would start with the easiest option - either a sub crawl as suggested already (puyt the sub in your main seat and then crawl around until you find the spot that sounds the best and put your sub there.

Then the nest easiest - download REW and simulate your room and see where the best position for your sub is.

And as also suggested - move your seating off the wall as far as you can - against the wall will give very poor bass response.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 18/05/2021 at 5:56 PM, Scott Field said:

then ill also have Red Spade come out.

Having that option is gold - hopefully happened before lockdowns?

 

Paul can sort your room issues.

 

Mike

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