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Could it be worthless to spend on highend turntables?


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Posted (edited)

Worthless to spend on a highend Turntable ?

Let me think for a minute................ 🤔

 

 

Ummmmmm Noooooooooo 😉

 

 

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Edited by April Snow
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Interesting topic for debate........   From a very personal view, I moved from a $3k turntable to a +$30k  TT in one shot without changing anything else (even the cart).  The difference was

I don't think it was a troll type question by the OP @gumptown, but rather I feel he may have been trying to justify to himself not spending much money on a vinyl rig. In the past, I've got into more

Over the (too) many decades I have been involved with music reproduction systems (note, I did not say 'hifi' systems) I have, at different stages of my audio journey, been a subjectivist, an objectivi

Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, rocky500 said:

Short term double blind has never worked, not to mention, it's useless. People ultimately buy what they like and can afford. The people doing the arguing aren't the ones spending the money.

 

Succinct but true.  The weird thing about DBT is that they last for such a short while and I usually need a lot more time to fully evaluate differences and assess whether they  are my taste.  And with rapid switching  - it is a double blind trick test where the same  music  is  NOT played  on each device. 

Edited by TP1
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On 07/05/2021 at 7:27 PM, crtexcnndrm99 said:

Ah, I will be patient then :thumb:

 

Not bad price, wonder if they’d ship interstate 😂

 

The company is Quador, in Nunawading.  You should ask them (don't see why they wouldn't).  :)

 

Andy

 

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Posted (edited)
On 08/05/2021 at 11:26 PM, lemarquis said:

Spend the money on a good DAC. 

 

Like an apple headphone dongle? $15 from JB hifi! 0.001% THD+N, 113dB dynamic range, 0.9ohm output impedance, perfectly flat frequency response

Edited by gumptown
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12 minutes ago, gumptown said:

 

Like an apple headphone dongle? $15 from JB hifi! 0.001% THD+N, 113dB dynamic range, 0.9ohm output impedance, perfectly flat frequency response

Indeed. You’ll probably get far better value for your money if you spend on a high end TT vs a high end DAC

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On 03/05/2021 at 8:40 AM, gumptown said:

I'm starting to think that spending lots on a turntable  is simply pissing in the wind. The format itself is so imperfect that the disc  quickly becomes the weakest link in the setup.

 

Last year I got a new turntable (Rega Planar P2) and started playing records again, mainly because I like the ritual. Since I had sold all the records I previously had, I had to start from scratch. I upgraded the Rega phono preamp to a Schiit Mani, which made a world of difference.

 

A few of the new records I bought were pretty much defective from the start. Any blemish on a record and you will hear it. (I know there's a big debate of where you should source your records to get quality material, but I won't go there in this post.)

 

Then I realised, I would spend $40-$60 on a single new record, whereas for that money I can buy two months of Tidal/Qobuz streaming (Hifi tier) and have pretty much unlimited choice. I had to ask myself the question: is the ritual of playing records worth that kind of money? And I decided that it wasn't.

 

The alternative could have been that I'd started upgrading the preamp (again), the element, the cartridge, etc. In short, and perhaps I was simply unlucky, for me the format is indeed so imperfect that I can no longer enjoy the ritual while spending that kind of money.

 

My 2 cents.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Sander H. said:

 

Last year I got a new turntable (Rega Planar P2) and started playing records again, mainly because I like the ritual. Since I had sold all the records I previously had, I had to start from scratch. I upgraded the Rega phono preamp to a Schiit Mani, which made a world of difference.

 

A few of the new records I bought were pretty much defective from the start. Any blemish on a record and you will hear it. (I know there's a big debate of where you should source your records to get quality material, but I won't go there in this post.)

 

Then I realised, I would spend $40-$60 on a single new record, whereas for that money I can buy two months of Tidal/Qobuz streaming (Hifi tier) and have pretty much unlimited choice. I had to ask myself the question: is the ritual of playing records worth that kind of money? And I decided that it wasn't.

 

The alternative could have been that I'd started upgrading the preamp (again), the element, the cartridge, etc. In short, and perhaps I was simply unlucky, for me the format is indeed so imperfect that I can no longer enjoy the ritual while spending that kind of money.

 

My 2 cents.

I totally understand that viewpoint & it is indeed valid, but the only thing is you are renting the music from Tidal/Qobuz etc and for all that money you pay at the end of if you actually own nothing (and the artists gets paid less than peanuts). There are always arguments for both sides and really no right or wrong, but it is all about Preferences of course.

I still prefer Vinyl (& CD) over streaming though for myself in both ownership and sound quality overall 🙂

Edited by April Snow
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The ritual of a record player is very nice, but the ritual of a "cheap" table is surely pretty much the same as an expensive one? There may be more adjustable things on an expensive table, but personally I set my Azimuth, VTA, lateral balance and alignment once and then forget about it for the next few years

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It is indeed late in the thread, but to answer the thread title unequivocally, the answer is no.

 

If buying a dongle, renting music and reading specifications is what makes people happy then so be it, but the initial hypothesis  achieves nothing of any value........ IMO.

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The original purpose of the thread was not to compare vinyl to digital/streaming etc- it was to question whether there's any audible difference between a solid mid-fi table vs a super hi-fi table

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1 minute ago, gumptown said:

The original purpose of the thread was not to compare vinyl to digital/streaming etc- it was to question whether there's any audible difference between a solid mid-fi table vs a super hi-fi table

 

Fair enough, although accurate definitions of these terms are problematicto say the least and as I said before my answer is YES, subject only to the law of diminishing returns at some point in the buying cycle.

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2 minutes ago, gumptown said:

The original purpose of the thread was not to compare vinyl to digital/streaming etc - it was to question whether there's any audible difference between a solid mid-fi table vs a super hi-fi table

 

Your first statement is correct, gt - but I don't agree with your second statement, above.  I would suggest you did not pose a question (about whether there's any audible difference between a solid mid-fi table vs. a super hi-fi table) ... you stated that as Archimago said there wasn't ... there can't be (any difference).  So it's completely pointless to spend the extra money.

 

As you have seen, there are many here who disagree with you (and Archimago).

 

Andy

 

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2 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Your first statement is correct, gt - but I don't agree with your second statement, above.  I would suggest you did not pose a question (about whether there's any audible difference between a solid mid-fi table vs. a super hi-fi table) ... you stated that as Archimago said there wasn't ... there can't be (any difference).  So it's completely pointless to spend the extra money.

 

As you have seen, there are many here who disagree with you (and Archimago).

 

Andy

 

 

Balderdash,  I just reread the opening post.  Even just from the first line you understand what he was trying to get at.  Sheesh...

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, andyr said:

but I don't agree with your second statement, above.  I would suggest you did not pose a question (

 

I said "to question", not "to ask a question"

 

To question something means to cast doubt on it. I was casting doubt on whether there's any audible difference between a solid mid-fi table and a super hi-fi one. Being that I did this in a forum dedicated to debating controversial ideas, I'd say it was evident that the purpose was for people to give their opinion on the topic.

Edited by gumptown
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, gumptown said:

The ritual of a record player is very nice, but the ritual of a "cheap" table is surely pretty much the same as an expensive one? There may be more adjustable things on an expensive table, but personally I set my Azimuth, VTA, lateral balance and alignment once and then forget about it for the next few years

This is true, the ritual is the same no matter what Table you have - but the results would be different when spinning 🙂

 

 

Edited by April Snow
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3 hours ago, gumptown said:

 

Like an apple headphone dongle? $15 from JB hifi! 0.001% THD+N, 113dB dynamic range, 0.9ohm output impedance, perfectly flat frequency response

Looks good. Cheaper than a cleaning brush too. 

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6 minutes ago, April Snow said:

This is true, the ritual is the same no matter what Table you have - but the results would be different when spinning 🙂

 

 

Hi Aprilsnow, 

 

the OP provided evidence that contradicts your claim.  Can you support your claim with equally independent, verifiable evidence? 
 

cheers

Grant

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Grant Slack said:

Hi Aprilsnow, 

 

the OP provided evidence that contradicts your claim.  Can you support your claim with equally independent, verifiable evidence? 
 

cheers

Grant

There is no evidence.

It is just one setup at that particular time with specific components with a test done a particular way buy one person. 

I thought you where quite a sciencey type person and would know better. :)

 

With turntables, there are so many aspects & adjustments that each similar turntable setup can be quite different.

 

 

Edited by rocky500
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Hi Rocky500,

 

I am ’sciency’ enough to know it isn’t perfect evidence, and  ‘mathy’ enough to know how much more evidence it is than the zero evidence that Aprilsnow provided 🤔 along with his or her 100% unequivocal claim. 😏 And yet you chose to question my statement and not his/hers...

 

 cheers 

Grant 

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21 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

With turntables, there are so many aspects & adjustments that each similar turntable setup can be quite different.

 

On that particular topic, I am reminded of this particular article. It proposes that the VTA adjustment is basically useless/meaningless. Roy Gandy of Rega also considers it to be unimportant. Harry Weisfeld of VPI on the other hand considers antiskating to be unimportant (I think).

 

 

The little sansui in my linen closet may not have adjustable antiskating or VTA, but maybe it doesn't need it.

 

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1 minute ago, gumptown said:

On that particular topic, I am reminded of this particular article. It proposes that the VTA adjustment is basically useless/meaningless. Roy Gandy of Rega also considers it to be unimportant. Harry Weisfeld of VPI on the other hand considers antiskating to be unimportant (I think).

 

 

The little sansui in my linen closet may not have adjustable antiskating or VTA, but maybe it doesn't need it.

 

I know.  This goes on all the time.   I prefer to accept that, at least in some situations, VTA and anti-skate might be useful to have, but I admit, in practice, I have also sometimes noticed little difference when I adjust them.  

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34 minutes ago, Grant Slack said:

Hi Rocky500,

 

I am ’sciency’ enough to know it isn’t perfect evidence, and  ‘mathy’ enough to know how much more evidence it is than the zero evidence that Aprilsnow provided 🤔 along with his or her 100% unequivocal claim. 😏 And yet you chose to question my statement and not his/hers...

 

 cheers 

Grant 

Unequivocal statements that vinyl is superior are always ok :) 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Grant Slack said:

Hi Rocky500,

 

I am ’sciency’ enough to know it isn’t perfect evidence, and  ‘mathy’ enough to know how much more evidence it is than the zero evidence that Aprilsnow provided 🤔 along with his or her 100% unequivocal claim. 😏 And yet you chose to question my statement and not his/hers...

 

 cheers 

Grant 

Yes but coming from you is surprising as you should know better than us hobyists. :)

Maybe it is just that some here latch onto something if it supports our beliefs or fits into our way of thinking (no matter who sciencey you are), even though it is dubious at best to form a conclusion. Don't worry it happens to all of us.

What do they call it? something like Confirmation bias or something.....  

Edited by rocky500
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Grant Slack said:

Hi Aprilsnow, 

 

the OP provided evidence that contradicts your claim.  Can you support your claim with equally independent, verifiable evidence? 
 

cheers

Grant

Only from my own Turntable upgrade experience and from hearing even more high end turntables compared my own - so the only "evidence" is what I heard with my ears I'm afraid, but yes, as Gumptown said the "ritual" of having vinyl is the same no matter what price you spend. 

Edited by April Snow
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The topic is a very open question.

 

It is all too easy to divert into discussions of different audio formats and delivery methods, but that is going off topic and is usually just about personal preferences, so I'm not going there.

 

All I will say is that the rule of diminishing returns applies to pretty much any item of audio equipment, and it is really up to the listener to decide if the money they have spent is justified for the improvement obtained.

 

If the item purchased proves to be faulty and unreliable, or actually lowers the quality of  the audio, then the purchase could possibly be regarded as worthless, but as usual it is up to the purchaser/listener to make that judgement.

 

Pretty much stating the obvious really.

 

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1 hour ago, gumptown said:

 

The little sansui in my linen closet may not have adjustable antiskating or VTA, but maybe it doesn't need it.

 

 

It may well not need it, gt - especially if it has a cart with a conical stylus.

 

1 hour ago, gumptown said:

 

On that particular topic, I am reminded of this particular article. It proposes that the VTA adjustment is basically useless/meaningless. Roy Gandy of Rega also considers it to be unimportant. Harry Weisfeld of VPI on the other hand considers antiskating to be unimportant (I think).

 

 

You may like to read this white paper, which the late, great Allen Wright used to have on his web-site:

6moons audio reviews: The Guru Vinyl Setup Paper

 

It tells a somewhat different story.  As for your two TT "reference gurus":

  1. I suggest Roy Gandy primarily had his eye on the bottom line - and leaving out VTA adjustment is one way to save production costs.  Note that he also designed Rega TTs to run slightly faster than 33 1/3rd & 45rpm - which I suggest is not a good thing.  (Why did he do this - according to Oz's largest Rega dealer in the 80s, because in a hifi shop comparison against other TTS, the Rega would sound slightly 'sparklier' - and therefor more attractive to the punter.)
  2. Harry used to be the only pivoting arm mfr who didn't provide anti-skate.  However:
  • I understand VPI arms can now be had with anti-skate, and
  • if Roy thought anti-skate wasn't useful - he surely would gone that route too.  But he didn't.

And another TT reference guru you might've heard of is the inimitable Ivor Tiefenbrun.  Did you know that the Linn line for several decades was that you didn't need to clean LPs before playing - as the stylus simply pushed the dust out of the way?

 

All these examples show, I suggest ... is that not all utterences from all gurus can be regarded as the unshakeable truth.  :lol:

 

Andy

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sander H. said:

 

Last year I got a new turntable (Rega Planar P2) and started playing records again, mainly because I like the ritual. Since I had sold all the records I previously had, I had to start from scratch. I upgraded the Rega phono preamp to a Schiit Mani, which made a world of difference.

 

A few of the new records I bought were pretty much defective from the start. Any blemish on a record and you will hear it. (I know there's a big debate of where you should source your records to get quality material, but I won't go there in this post.)

 

Then I realised, I would spend $40-$60 on a single new record, whereas for that money I can buy two months of Tidal/Qobuz streaming (Hifi tier) and have pretty much unlimited choice. I had to ask myself the question: is the ritual of playing records worth that kind of money? And I decided that it wasn't.

 

The alternative could have been that I'd started upgrading the preamp (again), the element, the cartridge, etc. In short, and perhaps I was simply unlucky, for me the format is indeed so imperfect that I can no longer enjoy the ritual while spending that kind of money.

 

My 2 cents.

A Rega Planar P2 is hardly high end, and nether is a Schiit Mani.

 

Edit: very average at best.

Edited by muon*
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13 minutes ago, Grant Slack said:

My Guru vs Your Guru — so this is where turntable threads go to die. 😆😆

 

 

... and you can tell it's dead when they send in the clowns

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Posted (edited)

Andy-

 

that 6moons article just seems to be the same old audiophile "truths" repeated, and we're expected to take it at face value as being correct. Roy gandy also took the position that the stylus is sufficient as a record cleaner. Maybe they're onto something. I never once referred to archimago or anyone else as a guru.

 

 suspect the addition of antiskate to VPI arms is a simple case of adding a feature because the consumer expects it.

 

edit: From memory there's an AT95E on the sansui. I used it as my standby player for nasty op-shop records

Edited by gumptown
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Posted (edited)

Come on guys. If anyone thinks this test is proof of anything, it really is confirmation bias.

You could definitely pick better tests than this on components as an example.

 

If I tried to take this test procedure/results to the science community as proof, I would be laughed off bigtime.

 

Even Archimago says it was just for a bit fun. 

Small result subjects, totally different playback ways and so many variables.

He even mentions there is a hum from the more expensive turntable setup that carries over to the sample files.

 

 

Edited by rocky500
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34 minutes ago, muon* said:

A Rega Planar P2 is hardly high end, and nether is a Schiit Mani.

 

Edit: very average at best.


Hi muon*,
 

didn’t the irony of your words spring out in time, given the entire point and topic of this thread? ☺️
 

cheers

Grant

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Rocky-

 

I definitely don't consider it to be proof of anything. It's interesting nevertheless. I would have expected a difference so big that it would be unmistakable. Especially due to the different cartridges

 

The  main thing that makes me wonder about turntables is that the measurable differences between consumer and hifi turntables is so small.  Beyond a price point, the spinning disc itself seems to be the limiting factor. It's An extra 0.02% more speed stability may be extracted by spending an extra $10k, but Rega has proven that apparently it's not even important to have turntables that spin at the proper speed!

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3 minutes ago, Grant Slack said:



 

 given the entire point and topic of this thread? 

 

This thread has a point eh?

 

Do tell:)

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4 minutes ago, rantan said:

This thread has a point eh?

 

Do tell:)

 

 

C'mon, be nice.  I think it is a valid question to ask, and despite the hijacking,  is still worth debating.

 

I don't think anyone has trotted out the ol' 80/20 rule.  Maybe with turntables it's 20/80 ?? :) 

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12 minutes ago, Grant Slack said:


Hi muon*,
 

didn’t the irony of your words spring out in time, given the entire point and topic of this thread? ☺️
 

cheers

Grant

No

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8 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

This thread has a point eh?

 

Do tell:)

Yes, crap tests are proof of something for some.

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I play CD's and not records these days and I still don't believe the test in the OP proves a thing, or does anything apart than providing a path to confirmation bias for some folk.

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