Jump to content

Could it be worthless to spend on highend turntables?


Recommended Posts

37 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

I'm of the way as everything even small changes can matter.

I have found the more I have spent on my turntable setup over the years, the more enjoyment I have got as the sound has become say things like more transparent, better imaging, more realistic ...... etc.

I also do not think it is confirmation (sighted listening), it is just experience (many many hours, must be classed an expert as definitely done my 10,000 hours :)) of knowing what I like over the 30 odd years I have been in this hobby. I am the one that must hear it for myself and not really head much what others say/experience or do tests on.

 

I like plain black boxes, DYI looking things are super if it saves me money over looks any day. Substance over looks every time. I do shop on the budget totally on everything I can. But appreciate spending the money when the gains are there for me.

So I see the advantage for me spending the money on better Turntables, Tonearms, cartridges, phono stages etc.

Others can do all the tests they like or read others doing them and form their own buying habits. That's the beauty of this hobby.

 

'Xackly!  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 443
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Interesting topic for debate........   From a very personal view, I moved from a $3k turntable to a +$30k  TT in one shot without changing anything else (even the cart).  The difference was

I don't think it was a troll type question by the OP @gumptown, but rather I feel he may have been trying to justify to himself not spending much money on a vinyl rig. In the past, I've got into more

Over the (too) many decades I have been involved with music reproduction systems (note, I did not say 'hifi' systems) I have, at different stages of my audio journey, been a subjectivist, an objectivi

Hi Rocky

 

the key thing about the sighted listening effect is that it is unconscious. By definition. Hence, the idea that we can consciously know how it will work, and hence know whether it was ‘in play’ in a specific listening experience, is unrealistic.

 

Just because you consciously like DIY and cheap boxes, will not dictate what happens unconsciously in sighted listening. It is an unconscious process.

 

I fully understand how you are rationalising a belief that you have escaped the clutches of the sighted listening effect, and how you think it really must be the sound waves that have audibly improved, but that is exactly what the conscious mind does at its core, hard-wired level: it insists that our sensory impressions are driven by objective incoming data, and are telling us the truth about that objective incoming data. 

 

cheers

Grant

  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, muon* said:

Ah, it's the internet after all and not a science lab or classroom

 

Wise words indeed!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Could it be worthless to spend on highend turntables?

 

If you can't hear a difference then the answer is emphatically yes.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, thethrowback said:

Could it be worthless to spend on highend turntables?

 

If you can't hear a difference then the answer is emphatically yes.

 

If you can't hear the difference,  you have other issues.

  

  • Like 3
  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, thethrowback said:

Could it be worthless to spend on highend turntables?

 

If you can't hear a difference then the answer is emphatically yes.

 

1 minute ago, metal beat said:

If you can't hear the difference,  you have other issues.  

 

Well said, guys!  :thumb:

 

(But I can't say any more ... or I will be accused of an 'ad hominem' attack.  :winky: )

 

Andy

 

  • Like 1
  • Love 1
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

 

Well said, guys!  :thumb:

 

(But I can't say any more ... or I will be accused of an 'ad hominem' attack.  :winky: )

 

Andy

 

 

Andy.  Don't change a thing mate.  :thumb:

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, metal beat said:

 

If you can't hear the difference,  you have other issues.

  

C’mon guys, is there any need to stoop to personal insults? You’re better than this 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

C’mon guys, is there any need to stoop to personal insults? You’re better than this 

 

How is that a personal insult?  I was commenting on a general statement. 

 

  That does not mean the difference in sound is important to the person or worth theadditional expense, but anyone should be able to hear it. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, metal beat said:

 

Andy.  Don't change a thing mate.  :thumb:

 

 

Hah - thanks, Shane.  :thumb:

 

But, in fact a couple of things are in play with my system.

 

The chassis for my SkeletaLinn that I was able to get CNCed out of a slab of Delrin ... has turned out to be not a good idea.  :(  (18mm thick Delrin is not stiff enough - so the weight of the bearing + platters is causing the triangular chassis to bow.  :( )  Bummer!

 

So next thing is ... to get a replacement chassis machined out of 18mm thick 'Permali' (Panzerholtz).

 

And I have designed some new spkrs which will replace my Maggies - after 30 years! - much to my wife's delight.  I will post about them - and share some pics - once I have had their metal stands powder coated red.  :)

 

Andy

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, metal beat said:

 

How is that a personal insult?  I was commenting on a general statement. 

 

  That does not mean the difference in sound is important to the person or worth theadditional expense, but anyone should be able to hear it. 

Agreed, there was nothing personal or insulting about your statement.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, muon* said:

Agreed, there was nothing personal or insulting about your statement.

 

Aah, mate ... alas, the trouble is in 2021 ... if you feel insulted ... then you have been.  :(

 

Andy

 

  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

A thing that has always struck me as a bit odd about conventional tone arms is that they don't allow the stylus to follow the groove oriented perfectly straight ahead (i.e. perfectly tangential to the groove), so as to match the angle of the cutting head.

 

However it appears that in practice the horizontal tracking error (which varies in size in the course of playing a vinyl disc) causes only a slight lopsidedness to the waveforms, and only a slight amount of 2nd harmonic distortion, and has apparently been found quite acceptable. ( See the explanation about lateral tracking distortion that appears near the top of this webpage.)

 

However, from a purist's perspective it would be nice if that little bit of distortion could be removed, when paying a premium price for a turntable, and trying to get the very best sound possible from a vinyl pressing, irrespective of whether the improvement was particularly noticeable.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MLXXX said:

A thing that has always struck me as a bit odd about conventional tone arms is that they don't allow the stylus to follow the groove oriented perfectly straight ahead (i.e. perfectly tangential to the groove), so as to match the angle of the cutting head.

 

However it appears that in practice the horizontal tracking error (which varies in size in the course of playing a vinyl disc) causes only a slight lopsidedness to the waveforms, and only a slight amount of 2nd harmonic distortion, and has apparently been found quite acceptable. ( See the explanation about lateral tracking distortion that appears near the top of this webpage.)

 

However, from a purist's perspective it would be nice if that little bit of distortion could be removed, when paying a premium price for a turntable, and trying to get the very best sound possible from a vinyl pressing, irrespective of whether the improvement was particularly noticeable.

 

There are such things as 'tangential tone arms', MLXXX.

 

However they are more complicated than conventional 'swinging' tone arms ... and don't, for instance, suit sprung TTs.

 

Andy

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

41 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

C’mon guys, is there any need to stoop to personal insults? You’re better than this 

 

Quite right.  It appeared to be a slur related to hearing ability.  And no explanation to the contrary has been provided.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

 

However, from a purist's perspective it would be nice if that little bit of distortion could be removed, when paying a premium price for a turntable, and trying to get the very best sound possible from a vinyl pressing, irrespective of whether the improvement was particularly noticeable.

 

As  @andyr has said , there are tangential tonearms and there were a flurry of turntables with these back in the golden age of vinyl.  One of the best  from a technical perspective was the Rockport Sirius using a captured air-bearing tangential tracking tonearm.  Clearaudio and Kuzma  currently make tangential trackers plus a couple of others too I think. People still seem to buy equivalent priced pivoted arms though as these seem to get better with new developments. 

Edited by TP1
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, andyr said:

There are such things as 'tangential tone arms', MLXXX.

Yes I know.

 

However if the theoretical improvement in sound quality is not audible (as seems very likely), there seems little reason to pursue them, and to deal with other issues they could create.

Just now, TP1 said:

 

As  @andyr has said , there are tangential tonearms and there were a flurry of turntables with these back in the golden age of vinyl.  One of the best  from a technical perspective was the Rockport Sirius using a captured air-bearing tangential tracking tonearm.  Clearaudio and Kuzma  currently make tangential trackers plus a couple of others too I think. People still seem to buy equivalent priced pivoted arms though as these seem to get better Wirth new developments. 

Interesting.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I never heard audible tracking errors with my Sansui SR-838 and Ortofon 2M Bronze, but I was obsessive about set up.

 

Edit: sounded as good no matter where the stylus was, outer tracks, middle tracks or inner tracks, all sounded the same and nice.

Edited by muon*
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

It appeared to be a slur related to hearing ability.

 

I can assure you that I intended no insult to the OP. Money spent on something that has no effect is wasteful.

 

If someone claimed shoving a dead ferret in their speaker enclosures enhances their listening pleasure then so be it. Perception is purely subjective after all.

 

I'm not suggesting that high-end turntables don't deliver sound improvements, but if an individual can't discern any difference then it is a pointless purchase. The money would be better spent on a nice holiday.

Edited by thethrowback
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, thethrowback said:

I can assure you that I intended no insult to the OP. Money spent on something that has no effect is wasteful.

I agree.  (No, it was not actually your comment I was referring to.)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Grant Slack said:

I fully understand how you are rationalising a belief that you have escaped the clutches of the sighted listening effect, and how you think it really must be the sound waves that have audibly improved, but that is exactly what the conscious mind does at its core, hard-wired level: it insists that our sensory impressions are driven by objective incoming data, and are telling us the truth about that objective incoming data. 

 

You might think so but I went threw a period of 6 months doing these BT tests. I have mentioned this before but here it is below again from what I remember.

Before I did the tests, I had quite a few Emotiva products, Amp, Dac, preamp I enjoyed for a while but thought it could be better so wanted to try to see if I could improve it after listening to a few other peoples systems.

So started buying quite a bit of gear mostly all 2nd hand (could onsell easily if it did not work out for me and hopefully with not too much loss), Moon amp, Modwright pre and amp, CJ, Donizetti, Naska ...... etc

Was really started to love my stereo and really enjoyed listening sessions.

Started also reading about DBT's and how they are the only way to really get to find you are not being tricked by your brain.

Well did these BT tests non stop for ages when buying most of the components in this period and found the differences I thought where there, I could not really pick them in the tests.

Always seem to be the Emotiva audio gear was just as good!

Would buy something else, BT test it and find the Emotiva just as good, then sell it in the notion I saved heaps just using my Emotiva gear. Life was great. :)

 

Well not long after I settled on the Emotiva I was finding there was something missing when listening to music. No longer would I look forward to hearing it and finding I was not even turning it on much anymore. Something had gone.

Went back online and did some researching and found that pretty well all of people posting when they do these DBT tests can not pick between the products. Pretty well all of them!

 

Maybe these tests could hide the difference. Read a lot of things like the brain compensating, filling in gaps .... etc, also the tests have to be setup very well, state of mind at that instance, you brain goes into analyse mode ...... (list goes on), so that maybe something like this is going on.

Alan Shaw was a good resource for me as he posted about it was hard for even him to use the DBT tests sometimes as it took lots of concentration (times he had to walk away) and he built a switch he could switch instantly (ms changeovers) plus had a foot peddle to swap so not to distract him from the listening. Lots of other stuff too.

 

Went back to just listening over time and buying more gear. My listening sessions started to get so much more enjoyable.

I began looking forward to all my listening sessions. It became so enjoyable again. Over and over things kept improving. Some components did not work for me, so sold them and bought others.

I kept this up to this day and still thoroughly look forward to listening sessions. Have not really changed anything for well over 2 years now and thoroughly enjoy my sessions.

 

So for me, I just put it down to, this is what works for me. No more BT tests or if so, just for fun with others.

 

I wonder if others end up missing out on more enjoyment in this hobby because they use these DBT tests quite extensively or follow them online to buy their components.

I tend to find the ones that post about this have topping dacs, basic phono stages, basic carts, basic amps, basic preamps or no preamp ... etc.  In basic I mean not too expensive just well performing components.

 

I'm sure they are happy listening to music in their own way too. It's a great hobby to enjoy music, you can even do it on a transistor radio of old.

 

When they design a head gear you attach that can monitor your feelings, endorphins ... etc, that might be the day they can really show which products suit which person. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by rocky500
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

There is also the swing headshell

Seems to be an elegant solution.

Edited by MLXXX
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rocky500 said:

Alan Shaw was a good resource for me as he posted about it was hard for even him to use the DBT tests sometimes as it took lots of concentration (times he had to walk away) and he built a switch he could switch instantly plus had a foot peddle to swap so not to distract him from the listening

If it's a small difference, I think that is the key: to be able to switch quickly, and without even leaving  your listening chair.

 

Very hard to set up though, with a lot of things you might want to compare.

 

1 hour ago, rocky500 said:

Well did these BT tests non stop for ages when buying most of the components in this period and found the differences I thought where there, I could not really pick them in the tests.

This is a very common experience.

 

Technology has come along such a long way over the years, that today even entry level gear can perform extremely well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 06/05/2021 at 11:33 PM, MLXXX said:

(The pivoting headshell) Seems to be an elegant solution.

 

Hi MLXXX

 

There are two problems with the pivoting tonearm that a linear tracker solves, and the pivoting headshell only solves one of them. It solves the problem of making the needle tangential to the groove rotation, but it cannot solve the problem of skating. The latter is actually the bigger problem.

 

Skating has a static component and a dynamic component. Anti-skating mechanisms only address the static component, and, when perfectly dialled in, only at one point across the record surface, because the static component varies with groove speed. The dynamic component is of similar magnitude, and arguably a bigger issue because it is signal-dependent.

 

Only a linear tracker will solve tangentiality and both components of skating. LT Rules. Buy the t-shirt. ;) 

 

The arguments against linear trackers, horizontal stiction and horizontal inertia, are orders of magnitude less than skating forces, so the choice is easy. Just like any component, though, there are good and bad examples of the breed, in design or build.

 

cheers

Grant

Edited by Grant Slack
Changed ‘skating mechanisms’ to ‘anti-skating mechanisms’ in para 2
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Doing very well if you can hear any of these problems as an failure in play back with a half decent arm and cart well setup.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, rocky500 said:

You might think so but I went threw a period of 6 months doing these BT tests. I have mentioned this before but here it is below again from what I remember.

Before I did the tests, I had quite a few Emotiva products, Amp, Dac, preamp I enjoyed for a while but thought it could be better so wanted to try to see if I could improve it after listening to a few other peoples systems.

So started buying quite a bit of gear mostly all 2nd hand (could onsell easily if it did not work out for me and hopefully with not too much loss), Moon amp, Modwright pre and amp, CJ, Donizetti, Naska ...... etc

Was really started to love my stereo and really enjoyed listening sessions.

Started also reading about DBT's and how they are the only way to really get to find you are not being tricked by your brain.

Well did these BT tests non stop for ages when buying most of the components in this period and found the differences I thought where there, I could not really pick them in the tests.

Always seem to be the Emotiva audio gear was just as good!

Would buy something else, BT test it and find the Emotiva just as good, then sell it in the notion I saved heaps just using my Emotiva gear. Life was great. :)

 

Well not long after I settled on the Emotiva I was finding there was something missing when listening to music. No longer would I look forward to hearing it and finding I was not even turning it on much anymore. Something had gone.

Went back online and did some researching and found that pretty well all of people posting when they do these DBT tests can not pick between the products. Pretty well all of them!

 

Maybe these tests could hide the difference. Read a lot of things like the brain compensating, filling in gaps .... etc, also the tests have to be setup very well, state of mind at that instance, you brain goes into analyse mode ...... (list goes on), so that maybe something like this is going on.

Alan Shaw was a good resource for me as he posted about it was hard for even him to use the DBT tests sometimes as it took lots of concentration (times he had to walk away) and he built a switch he could switch instantly (ms changeovers) plus had a foot peddle to swap so not to distract him from the listening. Lots of other stuff too.

 

Went back to just listening over time and buying more gear. My listening sessions started to get so much more enjoyable.

I began looking forward to all my listening sessions. It became so enjoyable again. Over and over things kept improving. Some components did not work for me, so sold them and bought others.

I kept this up to this day and still thoroughly look forward to listening sessions. Have not really changed anything for well over 2 years now and thoroughly enjoy my sessions.

 

So for me, I just put it down to, this is what works for me. No more BT tests or if so, just for fun with others.

 

I wonder if others end up missing out on more enjoyment in this hobby because they use these DBT tests quite extensively or follow them online to buy their components.

I tend to find the ones that post about this have topping dacs, basic phono stages, basic carts, basic amps, basic preamps or no preamp ... etc.  In basic I mean not too expensive just well performing components.

 

I'm sure they are happy listening to music in their own way too. It's a great hobby to enjoy music, you can even do it on a transistor radio of old.

 

When they design a head gear you attach that can monitor your feelings, endorphins ... etc, that might be the day they can really show which products suit which person. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Rocky,

 

thanks for the great story of your personal audio journey, I love it! 🙂 

 

It brought to mind John Atkinson’s journey story, very much the same story, if you substitute your Emotiva speakers with his Quad 405 amp in the 1970s. However, JA misinterprets his story as a lesson in how DBT can’t detect differences in the sound waves, and sighted listening can, which is a mistake. What sighted listening does is create experiences, other than what is in the sound waves, from non-sonic factors that become dominant. We can enjoy the heck out of such experiences, and the brain is hard-wired to tell us it is coming from the external environment, the sound waves, but that is the great illusion of life. The mind as meaning-maker, the mind as illusion engine. In ancient times it was a survival mechanism, but when modern life affords us the luxury of hedonism, we can use it to our advantage as pleasure-seekers.

 

Please take another look at the paradigm I presented on Wednesday, and see where your journey story fits. IMHO you were once DBT-based, and moved to Personal-based in search of maximum pleasure. IMHO your rejection of DBT data about actual sound waves in your decision process means you are Personal/imaginative in my paradigm.

 

cheers

Grant

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Grant Slack said:

Skating has a static component and a dynamic component. Skating mechanisms only address the static component, and, when perfectly dialled in, only at one point across the record surface, because the static component varies with groove speed.

 

Anti-skating mechanisms can be/are made to vary the force as the arm swings across the record, helping alleviate this problem.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, TP1 said:

 

As  @andyr has said , there are tangential tonearms and there were a flurry of turntables with these back in the golden age of vinyl.  One of the best  from a technical perspective was the Rockport Sirius using a captured air-bearing tangential tracking tonearm.  Clearaudio and Kuzma  currently make tangential trackers plus a couple of others too I think. People still seem to buy equivalent priced pivoted arms though as these seem to get better with new developments. 

I don't happen to be lucky enough to own a Sirius deck but am fortunate enough  to own one of the Rockport Linear Tracking Tonearms.

I can report yes it is very good !! :wub:


B8D943C5-DBEB-4CD1-9314-756D79781DFD.thumb.jpeg.a0c08ad294f97839cdb8e33f6bcee004.jpeg6A4392F6-7E9C-43C2-924F-4818991876AA.thumb.jpeg.88256327071e783cb39651ea7daff178.jpeg

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a reason I've exited vinyl recently.... Still no bites on my best turntable  :(

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, andyr said:

(18mm thick Delrin is not stiff enough

 

I'm surprised someone wasnt able to tell you this before you started...

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Hah - thanks, Shane.  :thumb:

 

But, in fact a couple of things are in play with my system.

 

The chassis for my SkeletaLinn that I was able to get CNCed out of a slab of Delrin ... has turned out to be not a good idea.  :(  (18mm thick Delrin is not stiff enough - so the weight of the bearing + platters is causing the triangular chassis to bow.  :( )  Bummer!

 

So next thing is ... to get a replacement chassis machined out of 18mm thick 'Permali' (Panzerholtz).

 

And I have designed some new spkrs which will replace my Maggies - after 30 years! - much to my wife's delight.  I will post about them - and share some pics - once I have had their metal stands powder coated red.  :)

 

Andy

 

Can’t wait to hear more abii on t the speaker design. :) 

 

Also interested to hear how you go with ordering the Permali here in Aus... my aim has been to get cnc’ed top plinth for my PTP Lenco TT, eventually replacing the 48mm of birch ply. Plenty of info on the LencoHecaen thread about Permali for TT use just FYI. No doubt it will be pricey though!

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Esoterica said:

This thread will save me thousands...

 

In what way, Ash?

 

9 minutes ago, crtexcnndrm99 said:

Can’t wait to hear more about the speaker design. :) 

 

All will be revealed in due course, Ash.  :thumb:

 

My 'golden-eared panel' is coming round on Tuesday for a listen.  (Hopefully, they will feel able to give me an honest appraisal!  :lol: )

 

9 minutes ago, crtexcnndrm99 said:

Also interested to hear how you go with ordering the Permali here in Aus... my aim has been to get cnc’ed top plinth for my PTP Lenco TT, eventually replacing the 48mm of birch ply. Plenty of info on the LencoHecaen thread about Permali for TT use just FYI. No doubt it will be pricey though!

 

Bought the Permali from a place in Nunawading (they use it in industrial switchboards).  400x600x18mm was about $150.

 

Andy

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

In what way, Ash?

 

 

All will be revealed in due course, Ash.  :thumb:

 

My 'golden-eared panel' is coming round on Tuesday for a listen.  (Hopefully, they will feel able to give me an honest appraisal!  :lol: )

 

 

Bought the Permali from a place in Nunawading (they use it in industrial switchboards).  400x600x18mm was about $150.

 

Andy

 

Ah, I will be patient then :thumb:

 

Not bad price, wonder if they’d ship interstate 😂

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been vastly impressed with hi-res digital playback via SET amps on QOBUZ lately---but I still love my turntable, as source, the best.

 

Nor (by analogy) am I about to buy the latest sex doll just because it's purely a subjective experience, right?

 

"Nothing, darling, I didn't say anything....just typing on the Forum....goodnight"

 

😐

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, andyr said:

My 'golden-eared panel' is coming round on Tuesday for a listen.  (Hopefully, they will feel able to give me an honest appraisal!   )

 

Have the blindfolds ready.   2X. 😬

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Martykt said:

I don't happen to be lucky enough to own a Sirius deck but am fortunate enough  to own one of the Rockport Linear Tracking Tonearms.

I can report yes it is very good !! :wub:

 

 

Have you posted information  about this previously on SNA ( or will you)  ?  If so I would love to know more about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TP1 said:

 

Have you posted information  about this previously on SNA ( or will you)  ?  If so I would love to know more about it.

I did post about the install of it onto my turntable a while back.

You're welcome to join in the discussion on it and ask any questions you might have. :) 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 07/05/2021 at 6:22 AM, Grant Slack said:

Please take another look at the paradigm I presented on Wednesday, and see where your journey story fits. IMHO you were once DBT-based, and moved to Personal-based in search of maximum pleasure. IMHO your rejection of DBT data about actual sound waves in your decision process means you are Personal/imaginative in my paradigm.

 

You might be missing what I am saying.

I thought of the BT tests as a tool nothing more and found everything blurred together. I always got the same result. Looked online and that seems to be a very likely outcome. I think of the components as more tools to do a job, so never attached to any of them.

So if the BT tests had given me some sort of result,  I would consider using it in future.

I am not in either camp but found the tests were no good for me in the way I was doing them. So just went back to listening as easier, more relaxing and seems to get me the results.

 

I wonder if you may be missing looking into the other side of why the outcomes may be coming out all the same as you seem to have a lot of info on sighted tests and possible short comings. There seems to be a lot more stuff out there.

 

A quick look and found this

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-do-so-many-audiophiles-reject-blind-testing-of-audio-components

Replies are worth scanning too.

 

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=11480

The conventional .05 significance level used to analyze typical listening tests can produce a much larger risk of concluding that audible differences are inaudible than concluding that inaudible differences are audible than concluding that inaudible differences are audible, resulting in strong systematic bias against those who believe differences are clearly audible between well designed components that are spectrally equated and not overdriven. This paper discusses ways to equalize error risks, introduces a quantitative measure of a listening test’s fairness, discusses implications for literature reviewers, and presents a statistical table enabling readers to conduct equal-error analyses without calculations.
 

Reading the replies there was posts in there too that made me laugh

quote

The eternal chorus of those who demand that users here submit to blind testing are merely exercising their religious beliefs. If they were truly interested in science, they’d be discussing blind testing in scientific forums, where content such as I cited here is germane.

 

quote

Short term double blind has never worked, not to mention, it's useless. People ultimately buy what they like and can afford. The people doing the arguing aren't the ones spending the money.

 

When I have some time I might do some more reading.

 

 

 

Edited by rocky500
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...