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Could it be worthless to spend on highend turntables?


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Guest Eggcup the Dafter
3 hours ago, rocky500 said:

Not sure if anyone else have slight doubts about all the DBT's posted everywhere.

But the outcome is pretty well always the same no matter what is in test if they are supposedly subtle heard differences sighted. The results always show no one can reliably pick the one playing.

 

Even professionals trying to pick a brand of instruments playing somewhere. Amplifiers are the same, Dacs seem to fit this too. Cartridges are another. List goes on.

There seems to be a very strong pattern that they all pretty well end the same way.

 

I did them here for over 6 months continuously on lots and lots of gear and pretty well everything to me sounded the same or not reliably pick which one when I thought there where differences before the tests.

Expensive well reviewed components against budget ones.

Looked online and the results seemed from others mirrored mine everywhere! That is always the likely outcome. It seems these tests have a 99.99% the same outcome. :)

Just seems strange to me as results like this don't normally seem to happen in anything like this.

Not sure if anyone else notices these patterns but just seems something else might be going on here.

 

As it turns out, differences were heard in the Archimago test- a group of users clearly preferred the CD rip to vinyl, and the difference between cartridges was widely noticed so we can’t put this in the  no difference heard bracket overall.

 

Cartridges can have wide tonal differences of achieve a better or worse match to the other equipment so we can expect that without invalidating your overall point.

 

Don’t forget that not hearing the difference does not equate to there being no difference to be found!

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7 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

A while ago, I listened to a series of needle drops on a bunch of carts that I mostly new quite well, and found what I heard (on Youtube) was a pretty good representation of what I expect from each cart.  So yes,  it is one of tools that are worth using in making a selection.

Did you know what the carts were beforehand when listening to them?

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 Dismissing archimago as a blogger is a bit unfair. He's currently used as a primary source on 2 threads on the front page of The Great debate right now.

 

The Director of Marketing Research at MQA angrily interjected from the audience at RMAF 2018 to dismiss Archimago as a nameless blogger when some of his research on MQA was being presented.

 

I'm not going to try to argue in favour of needle drops as an infallible method to perform a blind test.

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16 minutes ago, muon* said:

Did you know what the carts were beforehand when listening to them?

 

Of course, as I said it's Youtube, there's a video of them playing.  This isn't about hearing a difference or not.  Just the tonal character of each cartridge, to borrow someone else's term,  was in keeping with what I hear at home on my own system.

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20 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

I'd offer a different perspective to the question posed in the TT, as to why it can be worth it to spend money on a high-end machine for all sorts of other reasons.   

 

For example, some of the high-end machines look fantastic, and that's for a good reason - it makes them a pleasure to own.  I am not knocking it.  We do this all the time with other goods, especially things like cars.  Nothing wrong with the prestige factor either.  Easier to feel pride in an expensive luxury car, than a cheapy made in China.

 

I cannot disagree with this at all. I enjoy looking at photos of turntables online because they're beautiful machines. Even as I write a thread about them possibly sounding the same, I have an ebay tab open searching for tonearms, because they sure are pretty.

 

I have a high-end espresso machine in my kitchen and I have no doubt that a machine 1/3 of the cost would make equally good coffee- but my machine is beautiful and a damn pleasure to use. I actually enjoy making myself a coffee with it, which use to be a chore on my "consumer" machine.

 

High-end gear is nice to have, no doubt

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1 hour ago, muon* said:

It also imparts the sonic signature of the AD converter, and the software used to process it. This is not a scientific comparison,

The sonic signature from the process of capturing bit-for-bit the bitstream from an ADC operating at 96/24, and then later playing back that stream bit-for-bit on a DAC, should be negligible to inaudible.

 

Today's ADCs and DACs can be that good.

 

The often-cited argument about supposed deleterious "sonic signatures" of ADCs and DACs making it impossible to rely on digital recordings for sound comparisons of analogue sources had much more traction in the 1980s . That was a time when consumer access to highly linear, high  sample rate, high bit-depth ADCs and DACs, with highly stable clocks, was limited or impossible.

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4 hours ago, gumptown said:

The "sonic signature" would also be applied to both turntable setups equally, so it shouldn't really impact the result

 

You sure seem to be convinced that there's no point spending money on a TT, gt.

 

So I say again ... rather than reading internet comments ... why not simply go to a few Brissie gtgs with people that have high-end vinyl setups - and listen for yourself?

 

Of course ... that takes effort - much more so than reading internet comments.  :lol:

 

Andy

 

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6 hours ago, gumptown said:

The Director of Marketing Research at MQA angrily interjected from the audience at RMAF 2018 to dismiss Archimago as a nameless blogger when some of his research on MQA was being presented.

Yes, they interjected angrily at that presentation, but they did not dismiss Archimago. They just want to know his true identity. 

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1 minute ago, gumptown said:

 

I'm largely homebound due to illness. so I probably won't be able to attend get togethers

 

 

Aah, OK gt ... that being the case ... you need to rely on reviewers comments.

 

So you have to choose well, the reviewers you listen to.  :)

 

Andy

 

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5 hours ago, MLXXX said:

The sonic signature from the process of capturing bit-for-bit the bitstream from an ADC operating at 96/24, and then later playing back that stream bit-for-bit on a DAC, should be negligible to inaudible.

 

Today's ADCs and DACs can be that good.

 

The often-cited argument about supposed deleterious "sonic signatures" of ADCs and DACs making it impossible to rely on digital recordings for sound comparisons of analogue sources had much more traction in the 1980s . That was a time when consumer access to highly linear, high  sample rate, high bit-depth ADCs and DACs, with highly stable clocks, was limited or impossible.

 

So why is it, then, that an MSB DAC costing (I believe) $60K ... sounds better than a - shall we say, Topping - DAC costing $1K?

 

Andy

 

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6 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Perhaps, but it’s much easier than addressing his arguments. 

Have done already in pointing out how flawed his testing method is.

 

Was nothing left to argue, and to continue to argue with someone like that after the key things have been addressed is a bit of a fools path anyway.

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3 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

So why is it, then, that an MSB DAC costing (I believe) $60K ... sounds better than a - shall we say, Topping - DAC costing $1K?

 

Andy

 

Do a DBT on them and they will probably just sound the same. :)

 

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2 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

 

Do a DBT on them and they will probably just sound the same. :)

 

 

Shirley, you can't be serious rocky!  :lol:

 

(Then again, if you're just being sarcastic ... I absoloootely agree with you.  :) )

 

Andy

 

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11 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Shirley, you can't be serious rocky!  :lol:

 

Andy

 

In jest so put the smiley. It seamed to fit in with what I said earlier but to the extreme. :)

 

Actually still would not surprise me if someone did a DBT at home and posted about how they could not pick them. :)

 

 

Edited by rocky500
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