thejt Posted May 1, 2021 Author Share Posted May 1, 2021 9 hours ago, Full Range said: I have built many many single driver speakers for over 30 years and you can probably tell by my forum name that it was chosen because of that long association with them I mostly built speakers using Lowther drivers but have also built using Fostex, Audio Nirvana drivers and a couple of makes They are not for everyone Attributes are - Very sensitive, accurate to the source, excellent in the midrange and upper registers But if you don’t build a large enough cabinet they will be light on in the bass area They do however reproduce accurate bass - just not good at thump thump bass Is the bass issue relieved with use of a sub or is it more a case of the higher bass frequencies such as > 80hz? I'm currently investigating the fruegal horn MK3 design have you ever tried it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qlder75 Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 I'm no expert on the topic but I built a pair using Audio Nirvana 12" AlNico drivers and in my view they are incredible. Build the cabinets large enough and the bass is great. Mine are a smidge smaller than Klipsch Cornwalls. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decky Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 Well, technically every driver is a full range driver - however, most do not really perform well at certain frequencies 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 2 hours ago, thejt said: Is the bass issue relieved with use of a sub or is it more a case of the higher bass frequencies such as > 80hz? I'm currently investigating the fruegal horn MK3 design have you ever tried it? Active sub is beneficial if using small cabinets As for the Frugal Horn speakers - I have built one pair for a friend some years ago from when the first plans appeared, and depending on the driver you choose they should go down to mid 35hz possibly lower? but the bass won’t be forceful it will be clean and accurate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Decky said: Well, technically every driver is a full range driver - however, most do not really perform well at certain frequencies Mmmm, don't agree, D. Technically, you should define a driver's range with '-dB' points. If you are an 'honest' mfr you would choose the -3dB points ... a mfr who is slightly on the 'dishonest' side , I suggest, would specify the -6dB points. But I've never seen anyone ever specify the -100dB points - which is what you would need to do, to be able to classify every driver as 'full range'. So put on the Dunce's cap and go sit in the corner (facing the wall). Every driver is not a full range driver! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decky Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 8 hours ago, andyr said: Technically, you should define a driver's range with '-dB' points. If you are an 'honest' mfr you would choose the -3dB points I agree Andy - there was a healthy dose of sarcasm in my words (as always). A single driver speakers have several problems - only one of them is an incomplete frequency response (FR) (if we adopt the -3dB bandwidth definition). Two bigger problems are variability of FR in the bandwidth range and high level of unfiltered distortion close to frequency extremes. Yes, you save on the crossover but you pay a hefty price (in my opinion). On the other hand, they can have some useful applications - small factor computer desktop speakers is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloth Ears Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 21 hours ago, andyr said: Mmmm, don't agree, D. Technically, you should define a driver's range with '-dB' points. If you are an 'honest' mfr you would choose the -3dB points ... a mfr who is slightly on the 'dishonest' side , I suggest, would specify the -6dB points. But I've never seen anyone ever specify the -100dB points - which is what you would need to do, to be able to classify every driver as 'full range'. So put on the Dunce's cap and go sit in the corner (facing the wall). Every driver is not a full range driver! Andy A full range driver is a generic name, such as bass driver, midrange, tweeter, midbass. Just because specific drivers cannot reproduce all frequencies across the audible range doesn't stop the name being correct. Just as bass drivers do not reproduce all bass frequencies (ditto the others) doesn't stop them being put into a category. But I would certainly agree regarding specifications. I believe that proper specifications should include a -6dB point (high and low), plus a 0dB from and to specification, with a +/- dB specification for that range. As many drivers vary +/-3dB in their indicated range, have a -3dB point for the bottom or top of the frequency range is problematic - whether or not the manufacturer is honest or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian McP Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 for those with a steady hand (with a scalpel) https://www.planet10-hifi.com/pp-info.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloth Ears Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 6 minutes ago, Ian McP said: for those with a steady hand (with a scalpel) https://www.planet10-hifi.com/pp-info.html And you might need to be quick. I think David had major surgery a few years back and I'm not sure how much longer he'd be running Planet 10. I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree with some of his ideas - but they certainly look good after the dot treatment, even if they don't sound better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Cloth Ears said: A full range driver is a generic name, such as bass driver, midrange, tweeter, midbass. Just because specific drivers cannot reproduce all frequencies across the audible range doesn't stop the name being correct. Just as bass drivers do not reproduce all bass frequencies (ditto the others) doesn't stop them being put into a category. But I would certainly agree regarding specifications. I believe that proper specifications should include a -6dB point (high and low), plus a 0dB from and to specification, with a +/- dB specification for that range. As many drivers vary +/-3dB in their indicated range, have a -3dB point for the bottom or top of the frequency range is problematic - whether or not the manufacturer is honest or not. Very sensible, CE. I agree with you. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robfoll Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 Do check out Eclipse TD. https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/eclipse-td510zmk2-loudspeaker-review 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niss_man Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 On 30/04/2021 at 4:59 PM, Paul Spencer said: I find that fullrange drivers vary enormously. In general they tend to come in two varieties. Those that are neutral but limited and those with quirks and a personality. Alpairs are a good example of "neutral but limited." In a back loaded horn you can get a tiny speaker that can do a decent job at bass in a small room without the quirks you often get with fullrangers. In many ways they can sound like a much bigger speaker but then you hit their Achilles heel - they fall apart quite quickly at "moderately loud" levels. This is where the limited part comes in. If you move across to the quirky side of the fence, we move into drivers that often measure quite badly. In many cases they have a certain charm that tempts you to overlook these flaws and if you listen to only certain types of music, you may not even notice. Fullrangers with whizzer cones are more likely to be this type. In the measurements you often see exaggerated treble (on axis) with rapid shifts in dispersion as you go up in frequency. Larger drivers have higher sensitivity and/or more low end capability but this comes at the cost of treble challenges. 3" drivers have generally better treble performance but bass is out of the question. As they get larger it becomes more difficult to achieve treble extension and issues with beaming will tend to increase. Beyond a certain point, whizzer cones become necessary. This is a bit of an over simplification for the sake of brevity as there are many approaches. The bigger issue here is that a larger driver will probably have a different mix of characteristics and may be entirely different to what you are enjoying now. It might not be a step forward. In your situation, another option to consider would be nearfield monitors. These are designed for close range use and many of them have treble and bass/mid controls. In some cases they also have built in amps, which can simplify the setup in a small room. Generally, these are very good value. I agree with this after playing around with larger fullrange/wideband drivers recently. Although they can sound quite excellent. Having the dispersion drop off a bit sooner in a larger driver can help throw less high frequency energy into the room which can help with bright rooms or sensitive ears. But as you said they are not without there own issues as well. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian McP Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Friend likes the L Cao drivers, quite a lot of experimentation threads out there. wide range, pairing them with tweeters helps https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=9272.30 pairing them with tweeters helps https://jimsaudio.com/l-cao-***-alnico-matched-full-range-speaker-6-inches-pair/ https://jimsaudio.com/l-cao-fa-8-alnico-matched-full-range-speaker-8-inches-pair/ < On list is a pair of L Cao full range speaker. The motor is composed of expensive and good sounding alnico magnets. The paper cone profile is designed with reference to the legendary Diatone PM610. This cone profile was designed under an extensive research by NHK of Japan way back in 1950's as an effort to make a single cone full range speaker without the normal cone breakup problem of conventional wide range drivers. The result is a no-whizzer design with exceptional frequency response, wide dispersion and low-distortion performance, in par with the cone profile of Western Electric's WE755a. L Cao extends the design from original 5 inches to 8 inches, making the speaker driver more versatile with better bass response without sacrifice of high frequency performance. In this alnico version of the L Cao 8 inch speaker( the ceramic magnet version was launched in 2009 and we sold several pairs on ebay ), the design is further optimized with phenolic spider for better transient response. The manufacturing quality is further improved too. Each pair of speakers are carefully selected and tightly matched( please see below t-s parameters picture of a pair of L.Cao drivers from our stock). One cannot find near quality and performance of alnico full range speakers in the market. As there is manufacturing tolerance, the values of the t-s parameters in the picture are for reference only. But this piece of information is to demonstrate how tight L.Cao drivers are matched during manufacturing. We do not provide exact t-s parameters for each pair of L.Cao we sold though. The frequency response below is based on the equalized response with the recommended equalization network as shown in the schematic. Each pair of L.Cao driver includes two inductors. Users can pick and tune the capacitor/resistor values of their own to get the tonal quality they prefer. General Specification: Maximum Power : 20Wrms Frequency : 40Hz to 20KHZ ( in box) Impedance : 8 Ohm Xmax : 1.8mm Sensitivity : 94dB Fs : 55HZ Qts : 0.7 Vas : 65L Cabinet recommendation : 100 litre TQWT box > 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scuzzii Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) I'm happy to demo mine. I've had many sets of speakers (some much more expensive), CH2s from @cheekyboy are the best I've had. Happy to demo them to anyone who would like to see/hear what a well designed full range (by name) single driver set of speakers can do. My sound lacks for nothing range wise as far as I can tell, and they completely immerse you in the sound. Lots of bass, lots of sparkle. - for my music taste. Other speakers probably play Death Metal better, but it's not a genre I play. However, they certainly play bands like Nothing But Thieves, Stone Temple Pilots and lose nothing though. Sweet spot imo is Jazz but they aren't limited to just Jazz to be exceptional. Pls don't read my comments as being defensive/protective of FR single driver setups. Just an offer to help others hear some first hand. Edited May 4, 2021 by scuzzii 7 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejt Posted May 5, 2021 Author Share Posted May 5, 2021 On 04/05/2021 at 5:39 PM, scuzzii said: I'm happy to demo mine. I've had many sets of speakers (some much more expensive), CH2s from @cheekyboy are the best I've had. Happy to demo them to anyone who would like to see/hear what a well designed full range (by name) single driver set of speakers can do. My sound lacks for nothing range wise as far as I can tell, and they completely immerse you in the sound. Lots of bass, lots of sparkle. - for my music taste. Other speakers probably play Death Metal better, but it's not a genre I play. However, they certainly play bands like Nothing But Thieves, Stone Temple Pilots and lose nothing though. Sweet spot imo is Jazz but they aren't limited to just Jazz to be exceptional. Pls don't read my comments as being defensive/protective of FR single driver setups. Just an offer to help others hear some first hand. Great looking speakers. Is the cabinet a rear horn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scuzzii Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 10 hours ago, thejt said: Great looking speakers. Is the cabinet a rear horn? Yep, conical horn coming out at rear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anandpkumar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 I think these are the speakers that @scuzzii has. I've heard Fostex drivers (6 & 8 inchers) in similar horn based enclosures, but not this particular driver (Tang Band) https://www.wyndhamaudio.com.au/products/wyndham-audio-ch2-loudspeaker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuyen Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 Fostex fe103-sol in small boxes (humblehomemadehifi solo 103 design). Definitely something special with these small full rangers. Certainly needs bottom end re enforcement by close wall placement/subs to give full scale presentation though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 I need to make rear loaded folded horns for these but not motivated and lacking the budget. Will see if I end up doing anything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuyen Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 If budget tight, try open baffle? Bunnings, 2 plywood panels. Cut couple of holes. Screw on. Could be bit of fun for not much effort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, tuyen said: If budget tight, try open baffle? Bunnings, 2 plywood panels. Cut couple of holes. Screw on. Could be bit of fun for not much effort Don't have the space for anything wider than 400mm, can't come out very far either and no sub/s. Not to mention lacking proper tools, hand saw and a grinder is all I have Edited July 31, 2022 by muon* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejt Posted July 31, 2022 Author Share Posted July 31, 2022 1 hour ago, tuyen said: If budget tight, try open baffle? Bunnings, 2 plywood panels. Cut couple of holes. Screw on. Could be bit of fun for not much effort Don't decware sell lii in open baffles too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denimhunter Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 There seems to be a lot of discussion about frequency range of full range drivers. One of the major advantage of a full range driver is that there is No crossover! Yes crossover do affect negatively musical signals. I sometimes wonder if many ’audiophiles’ have heard a good full range driver and speakers in action? There are many wide ganders but The Coral, AER, Voxativ, suprevox…etc. are good examples. Voxativ ampeggio due in horn loading setup goes flat to 20hz - 20khz. Sometimes it’s not about how low it goes it’s the ‘bass definition’ that counts. Going back to the earlier point, the subtlety and nuisances of the music is preserved because there’s no crossover… I have been using Voxativ Ampeggio for many years. They are very demanding in electronics and hard to get right. But if one persist, the musicality and tonal texture one can get is difficult to replicate with multi drivers. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 2 hours ago, tuyen said: If budget tight, try open baffle? Bunnings, 2 plywood panels. Cut couple of holes. Screw on. Could be bit of fun for not much effort When the budget is right I'll get some ply cut for some folded horns by a cabinet maker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloth Ears Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 2 hours ago, tuyen said: Fostex fe103-sol in small boxes (humblehomemadehifi solo 103 design). Definitely something special with these small full rangers. Certainly needs bottom end re enforcement by close wall placement/subs to give full scale presentation though. Beautiful Solo 103's! Do you use the Zobel (?) network or run them straight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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