Full Range Single Driver Speakers, I'm Impressed and Want Know More

[thejt]

9 hours ago, Full Range said:

I have built many many single driver speakers for over 30 years and you can probably tell by my forum name that it was chosen because of that long association with them 

 

I mostly built speakers using Lowther drivers but have also built using Fostex, Audio Nirvana drivers and a couple of makes 

 

They are not for everyone 

Attributes are - Very sensitive, accurate to the source, excellent in the midrange and upper registers 

 

But if you don’t build a large enough cabinet they will be light on in the bass area 

They do however reproduce accurate bass - just not good at thump thump bass 

 

 

 

 

Is the bass issue relieved with use of a sub or is it more a case of the higher bass frequencies such as > 80hz?

 

I'm currently investigating the fruegal horn MK3 design have you ever tried it?

[qlder75]

I'm no expert on the topic but I built a pair using Audio Nirvana 12" AlNico drivers and in my view they are incredible. 

 

Build the cabinets large enough and the bass is great.

 

Mine are a smidge smaller than Klipsch Cornwalls.

 

[Decky]

Well, technically every driver is a full range driver - however, most do not really perform well at certain frequencies  

[Full Range]

2 hours ago, thejt said:

 

Is the bass issue relieved with use of a sub or is it more a case of the higher bass frequencies such as > 80hz?

 

I'm currently investigating the fruegal horn MK3 design have you ever tried it?

Active sub is beneficial if using small cabinets 

 

As for the Frugal Horn speakers - I have built one pair for a friend some years ago from when the first plans appeared, and depending on the driver you choose they should go down to mid 35hz possibly lower?  but the bass won’t be forceful it will be clean and accurate 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Decky said:

Well, technically every driver is a full range driver - however, most do not really perform well at certain frequencies  

 

Mmmm, don't agree, D.

 

Technically, you should define a driver's range with '-dB' points.  If you are an 'honest' mfr you would choose the -3dB points ... a mfr who is slightly on the 'dishonest' side , I suggest, would specify the -6dB points.

 

But I've never seen anyone ever specify the -100dB points - which is what you would need to do, to be able to classify every driver as 'full range'.

 

So put on the Dunce's cap and go sit in the corner (facing the wall).  Every driver is not a full range driver!

 

Andy

 

[Decky]

8 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Technically, you should define a driver's range with '-dB' points.  If you are an 'honest' mfr you would choose the -3dB points 

 

 

 

I agree Andy - there was a healthy dose of sarcasm in my words (as always). A single driver speakers have several problems - only one of them is an incomplete frequency response (FR)  (if we adopt the -3dB bandwidth definition). Two bigger problems are variability of FR in the bandwidth range and high level of unfiltered distortion close to frequency extremes. Yes, you save on the crossover but you pay a hefty price (in my opinion). On the other hand, they can have some useful applications - small factor computer desktop speakers is one of them. 

[Cloth Ears]

21 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Mmmm, don't agree, D.

 

Technically, you should define a driver's range with '-dB' points.  If you are an 'honest' mfr you would choose the -3dB points ... a mfr who is slightly on the 'dishonest' side , I suggest, would specify the -6dB points.

 

But I've never seen anyone ever specify the -100dB points - which is what you would need to do, to be able to classify every driver as 'full range'.

 

So put on the Dunce's cap and go sit in the corner (facing the wall).  Every driver is not a full range driver!

 

Andy

 

A full range driver is a generic name, such as bass driver, midrange, tweeter, midbass. Just because specific drivers cannot reproduce all frequencies across the audible range doesn't stop the name being correct. Just as bass drivers do not reproduce all bass frequencies (ditto the others) doesn't stop them being put into a category.

 

But I would certainly agree regarding specifications. I believe that proper specifications should include a -6dB point (high and low), plus a 0dB from and to specification, with a +/- dB specification for that range. As many drivers vary +/-3dB in their indicated range, have a -3dB point for the bottom or top of the frequency range is problematic - whether or not the manufacturer is honest or not.

[Ian McP]

for those with a steady hand (with a scalpel)

https://www.planet10-hifi.com/pp-info.html

[Cloth Ears]

6 minutes ago, Ian McP said:

for those with a steady hand (with a scalpel)

https://www.planet10-hifi.com/pp-info.html

And you might need to be quick. I think David had major surgery a few years back and I'm not sure how much longer he'd be running Planet 10. I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree with some of his ideas - but they certainly look good after the dot treatment, even if they don't sound better!

[andyr]

2 hours ago, Cloth Ears said:

A full range driver is a generic name, such as bass driver, midrange, tweeter, midbass. Just because specific drivers cannot reproduce all frequencies across the audible range doesn't stop the name being correct. Just as bass drivers do not reproduce all bass frequencies (ditto the others) doesn't stop them being put into a category.

 

But I would certainly agree regarding specifications. I believe that proper specifications should include a -6dB point (high and low), plus a 0dB from and to specification, with a +/- dB specification for that range. As many drivers vary +/-3dB in their indicated range, have a -3dB point for the bottom or top of the frequency range is problematic - whether or not the manufacturer is honest or not.

 

Very sensible, CE.  I agree with you.  

 

Andy

 

[robfoll]

Do check out Eclipse TD. https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/eclipse-td510zmk2-loudspeaker-review

[niss_man]

On 30/04/2021 at 4:59 PM, Paul Spencer said:

 

I find that fullrange drivers vary enormously. In general they tend to come in two varieties. Those that are neutral but limited and those with quirks and a personality. Alpairs are a good example of "neutral but limited." In a back loaded horn you can get a tiny speaker that can do a decent job at bass in a small room without the quirks you often get with fullrangers. In many ways they can sound like a much bigger speaker but then you hit their Achilles heel - they fall apart quite quickly at "moderately loud" levels. This is where the limited part comes in.

 

If you move across to the quirky side of the fence, we move into drivers that often measure quite badly. In many cases they have a certain charm that tempts you to overlook these flaws and if you listen to only certain types of music, you may not even notice. Fullrangers with whizzer cones are more likely to be this type. In the measurements you often see exaggerated treble (on axis) with rapid shifts in dispersion as you go up in frequency.

 

 

Larger drivers have higher sensitivity and/or more low end capability but this comes at the cost of treble challenges. 3" drivers have generally better treble performance but bass is out of the question. As they get larger it becomes more difficult to achieve treble extension and issues with beaming will tend to increase. Beyond a certain point, whizzer cones become necessary. This is a bit of an over simplification for the sake of brevity as there are many approaches.

 

 

The bigger issue here is that a larger driver will probably have a different mix of characteristics and may be entirely different to what you are enjoying now. It might not be a step forward.

 

In your situation, another option to consider would be nearfield monitors. These are designed for close range use and many of them have treble and bass/mid controls. In some cases they also have built in amps, which can simplify the setup in a small room. Generally, these are very good value.

 

I agree with this after playing around with larger fullrange/wideband drivers recently. Although they can sound quite excellent. Having the dispersion drop off a bit sooner in a larger driver can help throw less high frequency energy into the room which can help with bright rooms or sensitive ears. But  as you said they are not without there own issues as well.

 

[Ian McP]

Friend likes the L Cao drivers, quite a lot of experimentation threads out there.

wide range, pairing them with tweeters helps

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=9272.30

pairing them with tweeters helps

 

https://jimsaudio.com/l-cao-***-alnico-matched-full-range-speaker-6-inches-pair/

 

https://jimsaudio.com/l-cao-fa-8-alnico-matched-full-range-speaker-8-inches-pair/

 

< On list is a pair of L Cao full range speaker. The motor is composed of expensive and good sounding alnico magnets.

The paper cone profile is designed with reference to the legendary Diatone PM610. This cone profile was designed under an extensive research by NHK of Japan way back in 1950's as an effort to make a single cone full range speaker without the normal cone breakup problem of conventional wide range drivers. The result is a no-whizzer design with exceptional frequency response, wide dispersion and low-distortion performance, in par with the cone profile of Western Electric's WE755a.

L Cao extends the design from original 5 inches to 8 inches, making the speaker driver more versatile with better bass response without sacrifice of high frequency performance.

In this alnico version of the L Cao 8 inch speaker( the ceramic magnet version was launched in 2009 and we sold several pairs on ebay ), the design is further optimized with phenolic spider for better transient response. The manufacturing quality is further improved too. Each pair of speakers are carefully selected and tightly matched( please see below t-s parameters picture of a pair of L.Cao drivers from our stock). One cannot find near quality and performance of alnico full range speakers in the market.

As there is manufacturing tolerance, the values of the t-s parameters in the picture are for reference only. But this piece of information is to demonstrate how tight L.Cao drivers are matched during manufacturing. We do not provide exact t-s parameters for each pair of L.Cao we sold though.

The frequency response below is based on the equalized response with the recommended equalization network as shown in the schematic. Each pair of L.Cao driver includes two inductors. Users can pick and tune the capacitor/resistor values of their own to get the tonal quality they prefer.

General Specification:
Maximum Power : 20Wrms
Frequency : 40Hz to 20KHZ ( in box)
Impedance : 8 Ohm
Xmax : 1.8mm
Sensitivity : 94dB
Fs : 55HZ
Qts : 0.7
Vas : 65L

Cabinet recommendation : 100 litre TQWT box >
 

 

[scuzzii]

I'm happy to demo mine.  I've had many sets of speakers (some much more expensive), CH2s from @cheekyboy are the best I've had.

 

Happy to demo them to anyone who would like to see/hear what a well designed full range (by name) single driver set of speakers can do.

 

My sound lacks for nothing range wise as far as I can tell, and they completely immerse you in the sound.

 

Lots of bass, lots of sparkle. - for my music taste. Other speakers probably play Death Metal better, but it's not a genre I play. 

 

However, they certainly play bands like Nothing But Thieves, Stone Temple Pilots and lose nothing though. Sweet spot imo is Jazz but they aren't limited to just Jazz to be exceptional. 

 

Pls don't read my comments as being defensive/protective of FR single driver setups.  Just an offer to help others hear some first hand.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by scuzzii

[thejt]

On 04/05/2021 at 5:39 PM, scuzzii said:

I'm happy to demo mine.  I've had many sets of speakers (some much more expensive), CH2s from @cheekyboy are the best I've had.

 

Happy to demo them to anyone who would like to see/hear what a well designed full range (by name) single driver set of speakers can do.

 

My sound lacks for nothing range wise as far as I can tell, and they completely immerse you in the sound.

 

Lots of bass, lots of sparkle. - for my music taste. Other speakers probably play Death Metal better, but it's not a genre I play. 

 

However, they certainly play bands like Nothing But Thieves, Stone Temple Pilots and lose nothing though. Sweet spot imo is Jazz but they aren't limited to just Jazz to be exceptional. 

 

Pls don't read my comments as being defensive/protective of FR single driver setups.  Just an offer to help others hear some first hand.

 

 

Great looking speakers. Is the cabinet a rear horn?

[scuzzii]

10 hours ago, thejt said:

Great looking speakers. Is the cabinet a rear horn?

 

 

Yep, conical horn coming out at rear.

[anandpkumar]

I think these are the speakers that @scuzzii has. I've heard Fostex drivers  (6 & 8 inchers) in similar horn based enclosures, but not this particular driver (Tang Band)

 

https://www.wyndhamaudio.com.au/products/wyndham-audio-ch2-loudspeaker

[tuyen]

Fostex fe103-sol in small boxes (humblehomemadehifi solo 103 design).     Definitely something special with these small full rangers.   Certainly needs bottom end re enforcement by close wall placement/subs to give full scale presentation though. 

[muon*]

I need to make rear loaded folded horns for these but not motivated and lacking the budget.

 

Will see if I end up doing anything.

 

[tuyen]

If budget tight,  try open baffle?  Bunnings, 2 plywood panels. Cut couple of holes. Screw on.  Could be bit of fun for not much effort

[muon*]

22 minutes ago, tuyen said:

If budget tight,  try open baffle?  Bunnings, 2 plywood panels. Cut couple of holes. Screw on.  Could be bit of fun for not much effort

Don't have the space for anything wider than 400mm, can't come out very far either and no sub/s.

 

Not to mention lacking proper tools, hand saw and a grinder is all I have

Edited July 31, 2022 by muon*

[thejt]

1 hour ago, tuyen said:

If budget tight,  try open baffle?  Bunnings, 2 plywood panels. Cut couple of holes. Screw on.  Could be bit of fun for not much effort

Don't decware sell lii in open baffles too? 

[denimhunter]

There seems to be a lot of discussion about frequency range of full range drivers.  One of the major advantage of a full range driver is that there is No crossover!  Yes crossover do affect negatively musical signals.

 

I sometimes wonder if many ’audiophiles’ have heard a good full range driver and speakers in action?  
 

There are many wide ganders but The Coral, AER, Voxativ, suprevox…etc. are good examples.  Voxativ ampeggio due in horn loading setup goes flat to 20hz - 20khz.  Sometimes it’s not about how low it goes it’s the ‘bass definition’ that counts.  Going back to the earlier point, the subtlety and nuisances of the music is preserved because there’s no crossover…

 

I have been using Voxativ Ampeggio for many years.  They are very demanding in electronics and hard to get right.  But if one persist, the musicality and tonal texture one can get is difficult to replicate with multi drivers.

[muon*]

2 hours ago, tuyen said:

If budget tight,  try open baffle?  Bunnings, 2 plywood panels. Cut couple of holes. Screw on.  Could be bit of fun for not much effort

When the budget is right I'll get some ply cut for some folded horns by a cabinet maker

[Cloth Ears]

2 hours ago, tuyen said:

Fostex fe103-sol in small boxes (humblehomemadehifi solo 103 design).     Definitely something special with these small full rangers.   Certainly needs bottom end re enforcement by close wall placement/subs to give full scale presentation though. 

Beautiful Solo 103's! Do you use the Zobel (?) network or run them straight?