thejt Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 Over the course of many years I moved from small speakers to ones with larger and larger bass units. I found that I loved the effortlessness and impact of a big bass driver and ended up with Yamaha NS1000m, a nice 12" woofer. This worked fantastically in the old space, open lounge with vaulted ceilings and a good few metres between the speakers. With the arrival of child however the small spare bedroom became the listening space and I mean small once all the bookshelves and other bric a brac is in there. The room itself was only 3.5m x 2.2m to start with. The result has been a tight layout, speakers ~1.2m apart and a seat virtually touching distance at a stretch. The result has been quite unsatisfying and meant constant change in pursuit of something which works better. The issue? There is a lack of coherency with the mids, trebles and bass all over the place. The image is non-existent and treble seems really pronounced and harsh. Likely the large boxes lack breathing space, there are odd reflections and the cluster arrangement of the drivers means I'm sitting too close and the three way can't come together in time. This is just my theory though as trying small bookshelf speakers is less of an issue. Out of curiosity I picked up a pair of fostex full range speakers in a back loaded horn cabinet, appear to be a 126en or similar. Even just plonking them in the first available space, completely amazed. Imaging was incredible, stereo image locked dead centre. I could stare at the speaker and still not hear the sound from it direct. Frequencies came together and the treble prominence was gone. I have sub reinforcement so the overall bass balance is still good. Completely amazed by what is available for relatively little money. Such a beautiful mid range and still providing a high level of detail. So now that I've bought into the concept the question is how much better can I do? This driver uses a dust cap, are whizzers the way to go? Does going to a larger single driver have certain compromises and benefits? Would a single driver in a large cabinet start having room interaction issues like I was experiencing? Would love to hear all opinions from anyone who has experiences with single drivers. Thanks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub Sonic Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 The room doesn’t sound ideal, but it might be worth double checking the relative phase of your original speakers to make sure they are both hooked up correctly? I have done it multiple times... it can have the audible effects you describe. Re wide range drivers + subs, I am a sucker for them too, and yes, the imaging tends to be locked in and steady as a rock. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 I'm a recent convert (not fully, but admiring and enjoying) to single driver speakers. My limited experience mirrors yours insofar as the imaging goes- using 8 inch and 5 inch from the same manufacturer does show the relative strengths of each. The 8s in very large ported cabinets have a fullness and definite "presence" about them where the 5s in far smaller ported cabs seem to throw more realistic spatial info and are just damn fun to listen to! No subs were harmed in the forming of this opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anandpkumar Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 I've heard a few single driver speakers based on drivers from Fostex (4 inch, 6 inch and 8 inch versions) in both transmission line and back loaded horn cabinets, Lowther (in an isobaric cabinet) and Mark Audio Alpair (ported cabinet) Common across all were a sense of cohesiveness, strong imaging and realness (especially on vocals). Bass has always been a bit weak in all the implementations that I've heard. Most tended to have high efficiency and paired well with tube amplifiers. I liked them on vocals and smaller ensembles like jazz, but they didn't work for me when I listened to rock and more complex music. I am a bit ambivalent about single drivers - didn't fall in love with them, but don't dislike them either I can understand them working well in a small room in a nearfield setup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5L15 Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 These are bass shy but would love to see them in a bigger cabinet and find out what they are capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 On 29/04/2021 at 3:19 PM, thejt said: So now that I've bought into the concept the question is how much better can I do? This driver uses a dust cap, are whizzers the way to go? Does going to a larger single driver have certain compromises and benefits? Would a single driver in a large cabinet start having room interaction issues like I was experiencing? Would love to hear all opinions from anyone who has experiences with single drivers. Thanks. I find that fullrange drivers vary enormously. In general they tend to come in two varieties. Those that are neutral but limited and those with quirks and a personality. Alpairs are a good example of "neutral but limited." In a back loaded horn you can get a tiny speaker that can do a decent job at bass in a small room without the quirks you often get with fullrangers. In many ways they can sound like a much bigger speaker but then you hit their Achilles heel - they fall apart quite quickly at "moderately loud" levels. This is where the limited part comes in. If you move across to the quirky side of the fence, we move into drivers that often measure quite badly. In many cases they have a certain charm that tempts you to overlook these flaws and if you listen to only certain types of music, you may not even notice. Fullrangers with whizzer cones are more likely to be this type. In the measurements you often see exaggerated treble (on axis) with rapid shifts in dispersion as you go up in frequency. Quote Does going to a larger single driver have certain compromises and benefits? Larger drivers have higher sensitivity and/or more low end capability but this comes at the cost of treble challenges. 3" drivers have generally better treble performance but bass is out of the question. As they get larger it becomes more difficult to achieve treble extension and issues with beaming will tend to increase. Beyond a certain point, whizzer cones become necessary. This is a bit of an over simplification for the sake of brevity as there are many approaches. Quote Would a single driver in a large cabinet start having room interaction issues like I was experiencing? The bigger issue here is that a larger driver will probably have a different mix of characteristics and may be entirely different to what you are enjoying now. It might not be a step forward. In your situation, another option to consider would be nearfield monitors. These are designed for close range use and many of them have treble and bass/mid controls. In some cases they also have built in amps, which can simplify the setup in a small room. Generally, these are very good value. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejt Posted April 30, 2021 Author Share Posted April 30, 2021 26 minutes ago, 5L15 said: These are bass shy but would love to see them in a bigger cabinet and find out what they are capable of. These are the sake soaked JVC speakers? very handsome. 4 hours ago, Sub Sonic said: The room doesn’t sound ideal, but it might be worth double checking the relative phase of your original speakers to make sure they are both hooked up correctly? I have done it multiple times... it can have the audible effects you describe. Re wide range drivers + subs, I am a sucker for them too, and yes, the imaging tends to be locked in and steady as a rock. Cheers, SS I'll double check! thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 @Eggmeister For thoughts on single driver speakers, then @cheekyboy has oodles of XP and @scuzzii is one recipient of that expertise. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niss_man Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 These aren't mine but have just built something with the same drivers. Large Wideband drivers. Can be used from 25Hz - 12Khz but best used with a tweeter crossed between 4-6KHz. Russian Noema drivers. https://youtu.be/MafQQX062Sg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 5 minutes ago, niss_man said: These aren't mine but have just built something with the same drivers. Large Wideband drivers. Can be used from 25Hz - 12Khz but best used with a tweeter crossed between 4-6KHz. So they're not "full-range drivers"?? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niss_man Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 What is a fullrange driver? What frequencies must it produce to be classified as full range? more often than not they should be classified as "Wideband" drivers as the Russian Noema's are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, niss_man said: What is a fullrange driver? What frequencies must it produce to be classified as full range? more often than not they should be classified as "Wideband" drivers as the Russian Noema's are. I agree with you, Simon! I posted because the thread title is "Full Range Single Driver Speakers". Which don't exist, in my world. (However, "wideband drivers" certainly do.) Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub Sonic Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 One project on the “to do” list is an Alpair 5.3 or 10P above a Peerless 8” 830869 in a floor standing cabinet, with Rythmik subwoofers taking over the very low notes. Wide range to woofer XO probably somewhere around the 250Hz mark. I’m hoping for the delicacy of the wide range driver (see what I did there @andyr?) with decent mid bass and low sub bass. I have all the drivers and a CNC router in the shed... just gotta find that elusive “round tuit”... SS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, andyr said: I agree with you, Simon! I posted because the thread title is "Full Range Single Driver Speakers". Which don't exist, in my world. (However, "wideband drivers" certainly do.) Andy Are these close enough for you, Andy? https://www.lii-audio.com/product/one-pair-flagship-10-fullrange-drivers-new-development-for-better-detail-balance-silver-10/ Edited April 30, 2021 by muon* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5L15 Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 3 hours ago, thejt said: These are the sake soaked JVC speakers? very handsome. I'll double check! thanks. Yep, that’s them (JVC) also I found this site inspiring if you are interested in small speaker projects https://www.fostex.com.au/pages/diy-fostex-speaker-kits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggmeister Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 This mob does nice cabinets https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/153945524709?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 1 hour ago, muon* said: Are these close enough for you, Andy? https://www.lii-audio.com/product/one-pair-flagship-10-fullrange-drivers-new-development-for-better-detail-balance-silver-10/ Not quite sure, Ian. Specs say FR is "Fu to 20kHz". Not quite sure what "Fu" signifies ... but I like my tweeters to extend - flat - beyond 20kHz. And unless "Fu" means "flat to 20Hz" - ie. not -6dB @ 20Hz - the low end is lacking too. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, andyr said: Not quite sure, Ian. Specs say FR is "Fu to 20kHz". Not quite sure what "Fu" signifies ... but I like my tweeters to extend - flat - beyond 20kHz. And unless "Fu" means "flat to 20Hz" - ie. not -6dB @ 20Hz - the low end is lacking too. Andy Just look at the fs, and the frequency response. Yeah it might need some bottom end reinforcement for 'some folk' FU = ? I have no idea either, so I look at specs I do understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 Andy, just add a couple of these for the bottom end 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auracle Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 He's going to need a bigger forklift! I wish I could report the SQ on these (http://diyaudioprojects.com/Drivers/CSS-FR125SR/), unfortunately they remain untouched in their original cardboard boxes. Hopefully one day soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcathro Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 The best stand alone "full range" driver I have heard in the Goodmans Axiom 80s. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehuty Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 51 minutes ago, dcathro said: The best stand alone "full range" driver I have heard in the Goodmans Axiom 80s. Me too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub Sonic Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 1 hour ago, dcathro said: The best stand alone "full range" driver I have heard in the Goodmans Axiom 80s. Out of curiosity, what were your impressions, how would you describe the sound? The Axiom 80 are a driver I’d absolutely love to have a listen to but doubt that I’ll ever have the opportunity... Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcathro Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 26 minutes ago, Sub Sonic said: Out of curiosity, what were your impressions, how would you describe the sound? The Axiom 80 are a driver I’d absolutely love to have a listen to but doubt that I’ll ever have the opportunity... Cheers, SS Great frequency balance for a full range driver, but the standout qualities are the micro-dynamics and timing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 I have built many many single driver speakers for over 30 years and you can probably tell by my forum name that it was chosen because of that long association with them I mostly built speakers using Lowther drivers but have also built using Fostex, Audio Nirvana drivers and a couple of makes They are not for everyone Attributes are - Very sensitive, accurate to the source, excellent in the midrange and upper registers But if you don’t build a large enough cabinet they will be light on in the bass area They do however reproduce accurate bass - just not good at thump thump bass 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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