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Ethernet for Audio: endpoints, streamers, renders, players


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This is to accompany my series of other threads about ethernet for audio.  

 

This article sheds some light on the various terminology and functions, and lists many of the products as at the time of publication (2015).  Its a bit dated, but just fir context.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/understanding-digital-music-systems-1

This is going to be controversial,  I would not be surprised if it eventually goes into the Great Audio Debate.  Please be civil - so this doesn't go there.  Because if it does, members are less likely to share their experiences, and we all miss out on those.

 

This thread is prompted by an experience which is somewhat of a revelation.  I have been fortunate to experience a product which It is contrary to most common experience.  It is an example of an audio product that appears to have been been designed and engineered to solve the problems of noise over ethernet (my new acronym - NoE).

 

The thread is where we can share any other products that we have discovered that also deal with NoE like this. 

 

Comparisons between these products would be of interest.  Also feel free to advise where to read other peoples' experience with these switches (eg. on other forums).  Let's try to focus on the sound quality outcomes rather than technically how it is achieved so we don't clutter this up with technical debates.

 

Unlike some of my other threads about Ethernet for Audio, at this stage there is no Part B to this because these endpoints are audio products and there is unlikely to be generic computer/IT equivalents.

Edited by dbastin
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On 22/04/2021 at 4:48 PM, dbastin said:

Let's try to focus on the sound quality outcomes rather than technically how it is achieved so we don't clutter this up with technical debates.

 

 

I think you got this one wrong - there are very few debates on technicall issues and they are generally resolved very quickly if the problem is defined correctly. The clutter of endless and largely useless debates usually happens when you focus on subjective experiences of "sound quality" - in other words, when you start discussing different religious dogmas (sometimes driven by various vested interests) rather than to look into actual science and engineering.  I just want to remind you that your ears and brain are a very poor measurement instrument for "sound quality".  

Edited by Decky
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To kick off ..

 

The Auralic Aries G1, a very good streamer when used with wired ethernet. 

 

However in my experience, its WiFi is better than its wired ethernet, so much better that it represents excellent value on this basis alone.  My analysis indicates it would be necessary to invest in the order of the Aries G1 purchase price on wired ethernet gear (cables, switches, power supplies, etc) to match its WiFi performance.  By comparison to wired, it is a very neat outcome.

 

I presently have Aries G1 operating with a Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level 3 Digital power cable (US$3K), Synergistic Research High Definition Ground Cable (US$300) and Shunyata Research zTron Anaconda AES/EBU (US$1300).   I hope to explore its USB output, both direct to DAC and via outboard USB - SPDIF convertor.

 

I had previously written off WiFi based on previous experience.  Please serve me the humble pie ...

 

I have not written off wired ethernet.  I gather there are products that perform even better but do not have WiFi.  I'd guess these products have 5 figure prices..

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6 minutes ago, Decky said:

they are generally resolved very quickly if the problem is defined correctly

 

I accept I may be wrong.  I have seen many debates about ethernet for audio where there is a mismatch between people's experience and what technically should be.  The problem appears to be there is not yet certainty about NoE, its cause/source and how to mitigate it.  For example, it is hard to find a sound explanation why daisy chaining switches produces better sound quality.

 

I suggest we simply accept there are things that cant be explained (yet), so not burn energy trying to explain and prove who is wrong or right, and instead focus on what gives enjoyment.

 

 With respect


Dale

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Could perhaps your experience imply that ethernet implementation on the Auralic is flawed and therefore wifi is simply be better because of this? Anecdotal evidence with members I know seems to imply that theses units dont have rock solid wifi - maybe they have done something special and those few who suffer no such connectivity problems are getting the rewards?

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1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

Could perhaps your experience imply that ethernet implementation on the Auralic is flawed and therefore wifi is simply be better because of this?

This is hard if not impossible to test.

 

Whatever a product is doing with the data it receives via ethernet will effect the outcome, being sound quality.  So we can only judge the outcome.

 

In my system the Aries G1 performed quite well with only moderate upstream ethernet treatments (ERs, fibre, etc).  Changing power supplies, power cords, ethernet cables, and even a power supply fuse connected to upstream ethernet treatment made detectable changes though.  I feel the G1 feeding Devialet Pro via AES performed not only differently, but also better than the Devialet's built in streamer with a bit less upstream wired ethernet treatment.  I didn't compare USB, yet.

 

It is possible the G1 wired ethernet is nothing particularly special.  I suspect Auralic has concluded they can reduce the problems of wifi more effectively than the problems of wired ethernet to get their best outcome at the price point of their products.

 

In my system, the Aries G1 using wifi outperformed (in terms of NoE and resultant SQ) its wired ethernet with $1000s worth of treatment in the form of fibre, ERs, Gigafoils, $1000 cables, power supplies and power cords.

 

Here's where it gets harder to believe.  When I treated my wifi access point like an ethernet endpoint by giving it the benefit of power conditioning and ethernet treatments ... the sound quality improved again!  WTF!  

 

However, once I did this (with the TP Link access point within 1m of the G1), I did experience quite a few drop outs (several per song).  Once I cycled though powering up router and switches, it seemed to overcome this.

 

I'd guess, at a higher cost, wired ethernet could outperform wifi.  The question is weather streamer products can incorporate treatment of the NoE or rely on external devices, to achieve that outcome.  I'd guess there are products which overperform G1 or G2 on solely streamer function, but they don't offer wifi so G1 and 2 have an upper hand in that respect.  Hence why have highlighted those in this thread.

 

Incidentally, I am listening for tell tales of overall improvement rather than thenuance of 'different' characters.  For instances, in low end, I could feel how bass reproduction is higher resolution (believe it or not the sheer vibrations are more defined, which I did not expect at all).

Edited by dbastin
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I'm only just dipping my toes into AoE.

For some years I've used a 2012 i7 Mac Mini with Uptone JS2 LPS running Roon/ HQPlayer as streaming source, connected to my DAC via an iFi usb decrapifier. I found the idea of significant SQ improvement by rearrangement of the computer source unlikely. 

A few months ago I  changed from the i7 Mini to the new M1 Mini and used that stock without the LPS. Things seemed fine, but over time I got the feeling something had been lost.

As an experiment last week I separated my Roon core/HQP on the M1 mini and started using the i7 Mini/Uptone JS2 just as an Ethernet endpoint running Roon Bridge or HQPlayer NAA.  I was amazed at the improvement in focus and palpability.

The i7 Mini is just twiddling its thumbs running as a NAA and there are (supposedly) better dedicated solutions - so I decided to order a Sonore ultraRendu.

To make things more interesting I also have an Uptone EtherRegen on order - that will replace the generic D-Link ethernet switch between the M1 Mini and the Rendu. 

I'm interested to hear if the Rendu can improve things - I'll substitute it directly for the i7 Mini on the Uptone LPS (adjustable voltage) and report back to this thread.

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9 hours ago, dbastin said:

I am quite sure it will, even if you've modded the Mac Mini for audio.  The ultraRendu is very good from what I've read.  However what I am hoping to discover here is very good streamers than also somehow mitigate NoE very well too.

 

Congrats on dipping your toe, I'd say you're graduating from the computer audio wading pool into deeper water where you'll be considering a better server, more expensive ethernet gear, etc.  The likes of Antipodes server + player combos are in the deep water.

I did look at several streamer options  - Matrix, Auralic, Linn, Naim, Cambridge and even Antipodes.

However I wanted to retain my DAC/preamp setup and these things have a lot of features that are just unnecessary for my situation.

In the end it was hard to look past the purist/simple approach of the Rendu, which essentially turns my existing DAC into an audio optimised Roon ready or HQPlayer compatible end point (as well as offering several other streaming options). Everything else looked like window dressing to me. 

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 Interesting stuff.

Is there a particular reason why you have chosen ethernet treatments and not to D/D reclock between the G1 and Devaliet?

 

I use a Denafrips Hermes and it's made a significant improvement to both audio pc playback and streaming.

Cheers

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I haven’t explored this area with anything like @dbastin rigour! but

I add my vote for Auralic wifi quality.

 I have the original Aries Femto with upgraded LPSU. It sits only 3mtrs away from my router which is one of the Auralic r3commended models. 

Sound quality and stability had always been good but it did go through a bad patch which turned out to be one of a bad batch of wifi modules that went into these units. Anyway fixed under warranty and all good.

 Of course I couldn’t help notice all the talk and science about the superiority of Ethernet so I dived in. First up basic 5 mtr cable sounds good, bass is more robust, the rest....ah don’t know, too early to tell. Upgrade to Supra Cat 8, get an Etherregen and Sbooster power supply @nd a nice 1mtr length of Supra Cat8 with beautiful connectors from @Hydrology

Now I thought I would be cooking and if not cooking then at least warming it  up, but maybe not. The hairs on my neck were not getting used as often so over a period of a few months I switchback and forth between wired and wireless and damned if the wireless doesn’t have a bit more transparency and verve. The bass is more solid wired but definitely no slouch over wifi. I ask my partner whose ears are better, who loves music and couldn’t give a flying fig about how it’s delivered and she prefers the wireless version. Other similarly technologically agnostic parties come to the same conclusion.

Of course the case is never closed but  I don’t see why this should be causing surprise as it is Auralics recommended way to connect(at least for this model) and they appear to know their Schit. 

 My wired connection could certainly  be improved upon but as @dbastin says will it be worth the effort? Of course as an audiophile that is a stupid question as we go to ridiculous lengths for marginal and subjective gains.

 I would doubt that Auralics Ethernet implementation is inferior, just doesn’t make sense that they would not be across that tech. And many of the glowing reviews of their products are conducted using the Ethernet connections.

Anyway, for what it’s worth that’s what my ears and brain have been perceiving!

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3 hours ago, Niktech said:

Is there a particular reason why you have chosen ethernet treatments and not to D/D reclock between the G1 and Devaliet?

Its not one or the other.  I will be trying G1 > USB > Bryston BUC > 

 

@TerryOspeaks highly highly of his Phoenix USB reclocker, and of course there is others

 

My focus is on unravelling the mysteries of ethernet for Audio.

Edited by dbastin
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Watch this. Slightly off the Ethernet topic, but the source output is what really matters. I run the PI2aes on a RPI 4 2gb, the unit runs Wifi. No need for ‘Ethernet treatments’, or specialist cables etc. A few users comment it betters the SOTM NEO etc. $150usd. 

 

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12 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

Watch this. Slightly off the Ethernet topic,

Great viewing ... if this guy is technically sound, it is essential viewing.

 

Not really off topic.  Raspberry Pi Model 4 with Pi2AES converts ethernet to i2s and AES. 

Seems to be a network bridge to me.  And the video claims it measures a bit better than the Denafrips Hermes for a fraction of the cost.  But he was measuring from the DAC analog outputs, and pointed out that DAC has very good PLL!

 

Also, the RPi may not sound as good.

 

It has optical SPDIF output too, for more noise isolation.  Makes me think to try the Optical output of the Aries G1, with its clocks and power supplies might actually be better than the Devialet for that purpose.  I note BelCanto Black uses ST fibre to transmit from controller to DAC/Amps.

 

Interesting point about AES push -v- USB pull data.  Depends where the best clock is.

 

Wifi in RPi is unlikely to be special like Auralic.

 

Edited by dbastin
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3 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Great viewing ... if this guy is technically sound, it is essential viewing.

 

Not really off topic.  Raspberry Pi Model 4 with Pi2AES converts ethernet to i2s and AES. 

Seems to be a network bridge to me.  And the video claims it measures a bit better than the Denafrips Hermes for a fraction of the cost.  But he was measuring from the DAC analog outputs, and pointed out that DAC has very good PLL!

 

Also, he RPi may not sound as good.

 

It has optical SPDIF output too, for more noise isolation.  Makes me think to try the Ootical output of the Aries G1, with its clocks and power supplies might actually be better than the Devialet for that purpose.  I note BelCanto Black uses ST fibre to transmit from controller to DAC/Amps.

 

Interesting point about AES push -v- USB pull data.  Depends where the best clock is.

 

Wifi in RPi is unlikely to be special like Auralic.

 

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/pi2aes-digital-audio-shield-for-the-raspberry-pi.7136/

Stand alone measurements. 

You wont do much better than this. 

aes_jitter_bnc-png.26566

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2 minutes ago, Niktech said:

Hermes doesn't convert ethernet. The RJ45 port on Hermes is for i2s (LVCMOS) output

 

I guess the point is the Pi2aes provides a lower jitter output v's Hermes, @ $150usd. 

I.e. the Hermes isn't necessarily required. 

Its also very cheap to try. 

 

I haven't heard the Hermes or what it does for the audio sound. So I cannot comment on that. 

The purpose of the video was really to provide a cheap option for a streamer, not compare to Hermes.  

Edited by Grizaudio
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On 22/04/2021 at 2:48 PM, dbastin said:

Unlike some of my other threads about Ethernet for Audio, at this stage there is no Part B to this because these endpoints are audio products and there is unlikely to be generic computer/IT equivalents.

I was clearly short-sighted and wishful thinking.

 

Raspberry Pi is probably not considered an audio product, but certainly has the capability and seems to perform very well  as a streamer, especially considering its low cost.  However, it is a rabbit hole, and probably plenty of online resources.

 

And presumably there is a range of other computer and small form factor computers that can have the same functionality.

 

So rather than fill this topic with chat about Raspberry Pi and other DIY approaches, perhaps just mention them and provide links to other sources of info about them.

 

Therefore, I won't be making a Part B at this stage.  Someone else can though.

Edited by dbastin
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20 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Raspberry Pi is probably not considered an audio product, but certainly has the capability and seems to perform very well  as a streamer, especially considering its low cost.  However, it is a rabbit hole, and probably plenty of online resources.

 

Last point on this DIY solution:

 

Well I suspect thousands would kindly disagree with that comment.

Mainstream steamers are just PC's with custom software, optimised for audio playback.

This is the same goal as the pi2aes.

 

It couldn't be easier to implement with pre made OS image files from, Ropieee, Volumio etc. 

But I understand, its not an off the shelf solution.

Maybe something like this would suit better: https://www.pi2design.com/coming-soon.html

 

I would say however, solutions like this are no more of a rabbit hole than high end HiFi products. 

Indeed I would argue it makes little sense spending big bucks on streamer hardware, when standards change so regularly, especially when the RPI style products perform so well. 

This is the beauty of software driven solutions on open source PC's, updates are free and regular. 

 

In any respect the measurements speak a thousand words. You could argue measurements mean 'a lot' when analysing digital. 

 

I have compared the Pi2aes to $1000-$2500k streamers (Pioneer n70a, Cambridge CXN v2, PC, etc) it beats them all. 

That's good enough for me. 

 

Many others have detailed their experiences, stating it keeps up with the much higher priced SOTM neo. 

https://forum.hifiguides.com/t/streamer-ddc-showdown-pi2aes-vs-sotm-sms200-ultra-neo/15025

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/a-tale-of-3-digital-transports-shootout-with-unison-usb-and-aes.8810/

 

I hope this helps. 

Edited by Grizaudio
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