Speaker setup and choice?

[Jezzza]

Hi all

 

I'm currently in two minds about my current 2 channel audio setup

 

My room size is on the small size being 4m wide and 3.5m long, but the rear of the room opens up to our front entrance and a dining room. 

 

My current setup is 

Yamaha RS700 (soon to be replaced by a Cambridge audio CXA80+CP1)

Focal 716v floor standers

Dali Mentor 10" sub

 

I feel like its too "big" for the room, and would benefit more from bookshelves.  Thoughts? 

 

If I do pursue the bookshelf option I'll be looking under $1500 (new or second hand)

So my list is B&W 606, Dynaudio M20, Wharfedale 4.2, Focal 806.

Any other recommendations that would pair nice with the CA (Bluetooth Spotify) and a project carbon TT.

 

I haven't tested my current 716v yet on the CA. As much as I love them for their accuracy and detail, I do find them a bit bright at times and lacks that warm feel

 

Thanks in advanced 

[GregWormald]

I've heard the "speakers are too big for the room" statement but have never heard an example of it. The room and positioning of the speakers in the room can be tremendously influential in the final sound and for critical positioning very small distances can make big differences.

 

Both the WASP setup and the Sumiko setup insist that changes in position of mere millimetres are important. Furnishings are also a large influence in the sound.

 

I'd recommend you try either setup procedure and look at the liveness/deadness of the room before going further afield.

[genkifd]

my hifi room is probably a little bigger than yours but its an odd shape and i have Hulgich Dukes.

 

they are massive for my small room but they sound pretty good imo. you would think bass is the issue but not in my room. 

 

imo getting large sound stage is harder than a mid to large size room but room treatment will cure some of the small room issues. So room treatment is critical.

 

since you have the focal why not try them first and see if you like them.

[mwhouston]

9 hours ago, Jezzza said:

Hi all

 

I'm currently in two minds about my current 2 channel audio setup

 

My room size is on the small size being 4m wide and 3.5m long, but the rear of the room opens up to our front entrance and a dining room. 

 

My current setup is 

Yamaha RS700 (soon to be replaced by a Cambridge audio CXA80+CP1)

Focal 716v floor standers

Dali Mentor 10" sub

 

I feel like its too "big" for the room, and would benefit more from bookshelves.  Thoughts? 

 

If I do pursue the bookshelf option I'll be looking under $1500 (new or second hand)

So my list is B&W 606, Dynaudio M20, Wharfedale 4.2, Focal 806.

Any other recommendations that would pair nice with the CA (Bluetooth Spotify) and a project carbon TT.

 

I haven't tested my current 716v yet on the CA. As much as I love them for their accuracy and detail, I do find them a bit bright at times and lacks that warm feel

 

Thanks in advanced 

Agree with this, speakers too big or room too small. I know which is easier to change. I think some get sucked in too big complex speakers when smaller towers of bookshelf speakers would work better. It can also get to to music choice and what speakers suit that. For me jazz with vocals probably served better with a book shelf. 
 

The KEF LS50s get rave reviews what of them? Lots going second  hand and cheap. 

[Jezzza]

56 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

Agree with this, speakers too big or room too small. I know which is easier to change. I think some get sucked in too big complex speakers when smaller towers of bookshelf speakers would work better. It can also get to to music choice and what speakers suit that. For me jazz with vocals probably served better with a book shelf. 
 

The KEF LS50s get rave reviews what of them? Lots going second  hand and cheap. 

Awesome, will add to my list

 

Thanks for comments. 
Im at the starting point of trying to pick the right setup for my room size (my first dedicated audio room) so its a learning curve for me. Been doing a bit of reading but alot of conflicting info.

In saying all this, my setup doesnt 'stretch' across the entire room due to a weird angle in the wall. So centre to centre of speakers is only 3m apart, with the listening position about 2.5m away

Edited April 20, 2021 by Jezzza

[wen]

you have two other walls you can place your speakers along, dont be afraid to experiment because of the opening on one side, you may be surprised at the results

[Jezzza]

53 minutes ago, wen said:

you have two other walls you can place your speakers along, dont be afraid to experiment because of the opening on one side, you may be surprised at the results

 

This is the mutually agreed setup of the room with the other half 

[genkifd]

actually think the speaker size are fine and the room seems larger than you have indicated. 

 

try pulling out the speakers a little more. Toe in? once happy, room treatment.

 

i suggest to relocate your component rack to one side or have a lower rack.

[anandpkumar]

1 hour ago, Jezzza said:

 

This is the mutually agreed setup of the room with the other half 

 

ha, ha.......time to put your negotiation skills to use!

 

On a serious note, the recommendations suggested earlier around trying out different positions within the room including pulling the speakers out, placing them on a different wall etc. are very relevant and should be tried out before deciding to replace the speakers.

 

Also, you mentioned finding the sound to be a bit 'bright' at times. Try some soft furnishing such as rugs in the room. The CA amplifier that you are looking to replace your Yamaha's with may be on the bright side (CA amps are usually a bit on the bright side) - so you may want to look at slightly warmer amps - Musical fidelity, Rega etc.

[GregWormald]

Whenever I hear that the room is too small to sustain the bass, I think of IEMs and headphones.

[aussievintage]

6 hours ago, Jezzza said:

Im at the starting point of trying to pick the right setup for my room size (my first dedicated audio room) so its a learning curve for me. Been doing a bit of reading but alot of conflicting info.

In saying all this, my setup doesnt 'stretch' across the entire room due to a weird angle in the wall. So centre to centre of speakers is only 3m apart, with the listening position about 2.5m away

 

 

You could try my solution.  My room is odd shaped, and small, opening out to a larger area.  My solution is almost near-field placement.  Move the speakers out into the room further,  so your listening position (the couch) is closer to the speakers than the walls are (or as near as you can).  Looking at the picture, I would try the speakers at the corners of the rectangular mat (I think that darker coloured area in front of the couch is a mat?) parallel to, and about as far apart as the width of, the couch

Edited April 20, 2021 by aussievintage

[muon*]

You say the speakers are 3 meters apart and you are 2,5 meters from them, try moving them closer together like same as the distance you are from them 2.5 meters, and that will give a greater distance from speakers and side walls.

[muon*]

Do try all sorts of toe in, even extreme where they cross just in front of you....it can look odd at first but sometimes can sound good.

[Al.M]

For used bookshelf speakers there are lots of previous post recommendations - Proac, Monitor Audio, Sonus Faber, Kef, VAF, Legend, Osborne, Lenehan, Jamo, Spendor, Focal, Whatmough etc.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Al.M

[Pim]

I don't know whether all these tips can be implemented but this is what I would be looking to do. Keep in mind it's easy to move the speakers back to the wall when you're not listening with some sliders underneath.

 

Move the speakers out in front of the rack and a lot closer to each other. The rack causes reflections that stuff up your sound stage, the speakers closer to each other will make them sound warmer. Moving the rack to the side is even better.

Move the couch further back so your listening position is further away then the distance between speakers. If that's not possible, put the speakers closer to each other still. Even if they're 1.5m apart, it can still sound really, really good.

Play with toe in and tilt. Tilt is easy; move your head higher and lower and find what sounds best, adjust tilt accordingly. Toe in requires a lot of walking. Use your other half to do the listening. Women generally have better ears than men so they're ideal for this job. If your other half is male then let the fittest person do the moving.

 

After all that, set up the sub. Better still, get another one and go stereo with subs.

 

There's a lot to learn about speaker setup. I bought 'Get Better Sound' by Jim Smith and learned a lot from that little book. PS audio has recently come out with  book and CD that might do the same. The CD might be even more helpful than the book.

 

Whatever you do, don't buy other speakers until you've tried a proper setup. Speakers can only do so much. Set up can do a lot more. 

 

Happy setting up!

[genkifd]

the smaller the distance between the speakers generally the small the sound stage.

[Jezzza]

Thanks for all suggestions

 

The picture is decieving

The speakers are currently about 33cm from the wall with toe in, I'd estimate about 15*

With better measurements,  the speakers are 2.5m away from listening position, which is also 2.5m away - forms a triangle

 

I've been experimenting with toe (have a wider sound stage now and happy with it) but not position (will try moving closer to couch)  as I was trying to keep speaker distance same as speaker centre or as close as possible. I prob read this somewhere

The focals are front ported, and the fronts of speakers sit flush with the rack

 

Tested it on the CA yesterday and is a huge improvement over the Yamaha. Bass and low to mid is so much more refined and tight, and the high end has mellowed a bit (still bright at times for certain songs but that's being super picky) 

[aussievintage]

10 minutes ago, Jezzza said:

The speakers are currently about 33cm from the wall with toe in, I'd estimate about 15*

 

 

I think that's way too close to the wall(s).  The old rule of thirds is often close to optimum.  That applies from the back AND the side walls.

[Jezzza]

9 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

I think that's way too close to the wall(s).  The old rule of thirds is often close to optimum.  That applies from the back AND the side walls.

What's this old rule of thirds? 

[aussievintage]

11 hours ago, Jezzza said:

What's this old rule of thirds? 

 

Speakers should be placed 1/3rd of the way into the room from the back wall and also from the side wall.

[genkifd]

not just that the seating position should be 1/3 into the room.

 

i actually dont think the side and the front wall setback should be the same.

 

i utilise the 1/3 rule but i dont for the setback of speakers from the side walls

[aussievintage]

3 minutes ago, genkifd said:

not just that the seating position should be 1/3 into the room.

 

i actually dont think the side and the front wall setback should be the same.

 

i utilise the 1/3 rule but i dont for the setback of speakers from the side walls

 

Side walls matter more depending on the aspect ratio of the room and whether you sit facing the long or the short wall.

 

Agree on seating as well, except to say you can sit even closer in to the speakers in a large room.

[genkifd]

you need to experiment what best for your room. 

 

over the last 5 to 6 weeks ive played around with toe ins, speakers distances away from the front wall. speakers distance apart and seating distance. ive removed my dollies underneath my speakers and im happy with how the system sounds but room treatment is required for my small room. 

[Jezzza]

Hmm ok

If I applied the 1/3 rule to my room, my speakers would be 1m from the back wall, couch would be 1m from rear 'wall' (theres no wall).. so my speakers from couch would also be 1m away 

 

Ive experimented a bit more, and moved speakers ~45-50cm away from rear wall and side walls/windows, moves speakers closer in towards each other, so now its about 2m apart. Its really opened up the soundstage, and mids sound a bit clearer/punchier. Unfortunately doesnt resolve some slight brightness in the speakers, but I think its a Focal thing

 

I demo'ed some speakers yesterday, only two on the floor (current renos)

- B&W 707 s2

- Definitive Tech D11

I thought the Def techs were a really interesting design with a passive radiator on top

[aussievintage]

3 hours ago, Jezzza said:

If I applied the 1/3 rule to my room, my speakers would be 1m from the back wall, couch would be 1m from rear 'wall' (theres no wall).. so my speakers from couch would also be 1m away 

 

Yes, and I bet they would sound great