Dynaudio Special 40 Upgrade: Big brand low quality ripoff or DIY Quackery?

[Cope]

32 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I’ve seen many accusations raised against him, some more reasonable than others but this one really surprises me. 
I’m quite sure he would say he is as prone to bias as the rest of us (ie a lot). That’s one of the main reasons why he puts so much store in measurements. 

 

What I mean is that he doesn't seem to see his order of testing (measurements then subjective impressions) as an issue (and so he tends to hear exactly what he measured, which means the reader can't be certain it's an audible thing or a bias thing), and he has, on occasion, given more time to speakers whose background he respects vs those he does not. He tested Andrew Jones' Adante speakers multiple times before ultimately admitting they measured poorly, whereas a brand like Klipsch gets one measurement and that's that, because he expected them to be bad. That's inconsistent methodology. Admittedly I've only conducted research at honours level, but I know a flawed study when I see it. 

 

Now, I am definitely not saying this as some way to handwave results on ASR I don't like. I see a lot of people accusing Amir of poor methodology in a way that suggests the right methodology for them is the one that agrees with their subjective preferences. This is not that. It's simply frustrating that he gets 90% of the way to being beyond reproach and then just kind of shrugs the rest off. 

[sir sanders zingmore]

4 minutes ago, twofires said:

 

What I mean is that he doesn't seem to see his order of testing (measurements then subjective impressions) as an issue (and so he tends to hear exactly what he measured, which means the reader can't be certain it's an audible thing or a bias thing), and he has, on occasion, given more time to speakers whose background he respects vs those he does not. He tested Andrew Jones' Adante speakers multiple times before ultimately admitting they measured poorly, whereas a brand like Klipsch gets one measurement and that's that, because he expected them to be bad. That's inconsistent methodology. Admittedly I've only conducted research at honours level, but I know a flawed study when I see it. 

 

Now, I am definitely not saying this as some way to handwave results on ASR I don't like. I see a lot of people accusing Amir of poor methodology in a way that suggests the right methodology for them is the one that agrees with their subjective preferences. This is not that. It's simply frustrating that he gets 90% of the way to being beyond reproach and then just kind of shrugs the rest off. 

Understand now. 
 

I agree it would probably be preferable if he listened first. But then I guess a whole lot of other biases might be present (I’m sure he’s no more immune to “look and feel” bias or reputation bias than the rest of us). 
At least the stuff he hears (or thinks he hears) often correlates with measurements as opposed to being “explained” by some of the dubious stuff you see out there. 

[Chill3]

On 07/04/2021 at 7:20 PM, petetherock said:

 

I won’t diss his findings but if everything is fine, then you don’t need mods and there won’t be any upgrade videos

 

 

How do you find the Heritage Specials, seriously considering them for my system 

[Cope]

8 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Understand now. 
 

I agree it would probably be preferable if he listened first. But then I guess a whole lot of other biases might be present (I’m sure he’s no more immune to “look and feel” bias or reputation bias than the rest of us). 
At least the stuff he hears (or thinks he hears) often correlates with measurements as opposed to being “explained” by some of the dubious stuff you see out there. 

 

I agree. He balances out a lot of the more fanciful claims you hear made in hifi, for sure.

 

Ultimately, you'd need a research team to do what he does really well, and I appreciate that's a lot to ask of a guy doing it all out of his garage on his own time and dollar.

[petetherock]

1 hour ago, Chill3 said:

How do you find the Heritage Specials, seriously considering them for my system 

 

Here my review of the Heritage Special:

https://peteswrite.blogspot.com/2021/04/dynaudio-heritage-special-speaker-review.html 

 

You'll need to cut off a finger to afford them, and then another one to get the Hegel H390, but the synergy is sweet..

[Chill3]

22 minutes ago, petetherock said:

 

Here my review of the Heritage Special:

https://peteswrite.blogspot.com/2021/04/dynaudio-heritage-special-speaker-review.html 

 

You'll need to cut off a finger to afford them, and then another one to get the Hegel H390, but the synergy is sweet..

Thanks 

[Jack]

Re the Special 40s John Atkinson finishes the Measurements section with-

 

“Dynaudio's Special Forty offers generally excellent measured performance, but I was bothered by the woofer's behavior just above 1kHz, and even more so by that very strong vibrational resonance on the sidewalls.”—John Atkinson

 

so he has concerns, but they would seem to be limited. All speakers are a compromise. The Dyns are ‘good’ look great (again in the eye of the beholder) and if you like their sound (and have the money) that’s great, enjoy them, but they are not going to be for everyone. I have only heard them being demoed to another person at a dealer and don’t have an informed opinion on their sound. 
 

Danny Richie has a great reputation in the DIY speaker community and has been active for many years. He has made some very well regarded kits at modest price points and has designed speakers for small manufacturers. He is an accomplished designer running his own business. I believe his upgrading business really took off when he did a revised crossover for one of Usher’s well regarded stand-mounts. The revised xo was well reviewed and achieved flavour of the month status on some of the forums at the time. But we must remember that he too is running a business and needs to make a profit 
 

I am in a distinct minority who dislike the original LS50. I have listened to them at length in a friend’s system. He LOVES them I find them lacking in body in the upper midrange and the highs too etched, but that’s me, thousands will disagree. I’m okay with that provided I’m not told that I have to like them or that I have heard them with the wrong amps.

 

Fear of missing out is at work... would I modify a pair of Special 40s with a crossover I cannot compare to an unmodified speaker... I don’t think so. If I wasn’t happy with my (hypothetical) Special 40s I would start thinking about new speakers, ok maybe some simple damping on the internal walls. I wouldn’t modify my Proac D2s if Danny came out with an new xo for them. I like them as they are. I purchased them because I liked the way they made music, my Ls50 owning friend prefers his speakers. I think he’s mad. We tease each other, each to their own.

[sir sanders zingmore]

5 minutes ago, Jack said:

so he has concerns, but they would seem to be limited.

I’m not sure if they are limited. JA is always very measured ( ) in his comments. I don’t think he ever openly says anything bad, you need to read between the lines 

[Addicted to music]

33 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I’m not sure if they are limited. JA is always very measured ( ) in his comments. I don’t think he ever openly says anything bad, you need to read between the lines 

What do you expect JA to say in a commercial sponsored site... 

[Addicted to music]

17 hours ago, betty boop said:

does amir even have any formal qualifications in speakers/acoustics ? or what speaking about ?. best i know is he has an electrical engineering and computer science degree from 1980s ! and worked in video and software in some top rolls but all this  here is hardly his field of technical expertise I would think ?....

 

am tending to put all this including the modder above in same category of another man and his opinion... dont have to look hard on the web for those  

With his background it’s not hard to drive any set of measurement rig. When you purchased a $30k kit such as the AP555 I’m sure AP will be holding some sort of training to ensure you make the best of that product. 
 

How many sites can give you objective measurements and comments on what they hear, especially some of the measurement Equipment he has(AP555)  at his disposal, it  isn’t available to most including a lot of small manufacturers, in fact I’ve seen some manufacturers send there products to him to be tested; the better as you have no idea what condition when other members on that site sent in.   Also Amir isn’t commercially sponsored like Stereophile, so he’s not “gagged”   He just reports it measured, if you have an issue with what he’s measured, get on that site and discuss it with him.

He  invites manufacturers to participate in the discussion and helps to improve there products, there are many manufacturers and designers on that site that uses him to get a reference set of measurement  to see if it corresponds to the limitations they have.   If the product measures badly you can send another sample or learn from it and improve on the next version.
Amir is unlike this this guy trying to flog his DIY improvement kits, Amir just measures and listens and reports,  no selling! 

 

 Being in this hobby all my life it’s the only site I’ve seen that’s open and it’s not gagged and uses reference measurement equipment 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Addicted to music

[Cope]

6 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I’m not sure if they are limited. JA is always very measured ( ) in his comments. I don’t think he ever openly says anything bad, you need to read between the lines 

 

My favourite is his summary on the Harbeth Monitor 30.2:

 

Its measured performance confirms that the Monitor 30.2 is as well-engineered a design as I have come to expect from Alan Shaw and his respect for the BBC tradition.

 

What's even better is that Herb opens his subjective review of the speaker with the line "everything sounds like what it's made of" which, to me, reads like an open declaration of expectation bias.

 

The whole thing feels like hifi in a nutshell.

 

On the Special 40s though, JA wrote both halves, and concluded the subjective half with this:

 

Perhaps, then, not too much should be made of this potential Achilles' heel. As I write these words, I'm again listening to the Rachmaninoff, and yes, in critical listening mode, I can hear the congestion in the piano's midrange. But in listening-to-music mode, that congestion is outweighed by everything else the Dynaudio Special Forty does right—which seems to be just about everything.

 

To me, that doesn't feel 100% like face-saving double talk - but then I would say that owning the speakers, wouldn't I?

[Addicted to music]

@twofires

 

I look and take note of JA measurements,  I rarely read his comments 

[Cope]

Just now, Addicted to music said:

@twofires

 

I look and take note of JA measurements,  I rarely read his comments 

 

That's fair, I guess what I'm saying is that even someone who understands measurements can find things of worth in a speaker that is somewhat lacking if they sit with it a while. Is that just habituation, or are there other important measurements we're not focusing on? Are some people more bothered by time domain issues than others, for example, to the point it overrides what are conventionally seen as bigger issues? I find that stuff fascinating. 

[allthumbs]

 

[Colourofspring]

This is the part of HiFi I completely ignore. For two reasons:

 

1/ I don't understand it, it's far too scientific for me to even begin to try and understand it.

 

2/ The world of HiFi is highly subjective. One man's treasure is another man's trash. None of us have invested what we have in our equipment so that we can get the best scientific readings possible, we do so because we want the best possible reproduction for OUR ears to OUR tastes. Our ears cannot even hear so many frequencies that are measured by these instruments. It is scientifically proven that the younger you are the higher the frequency you can hear. So arguing over certain readings can be futile based on your hearing ability.

 

On top of this, a MASSIVE factor in the sound of all HiFi is the room. The "best" system can sound sh!thouse in the wrong room, just like a cheapo system with little to no credentials can sound surprisingly good in the right room.

 

I remember listening to a system when I was about 18 at friend of my dad's place. He had these huge Quad electrostatic speakers, cannot for the life of me remember what the rest of his system was, but he had a system worth approx $150k. Now his tastes in music were completely different to mine, very classical and what I heard was good. I had brought my own music with me to try on it (very different to his, more blues and modern music requiring more punch, less warmth) and I found it completely lacking in the midrange, where my own system at the time worth a paltry $3k far outperformed his on that material. Again, my preference, my ears. I'd love to listen to that same system today and see if my opinion has changed.

 

In summary, scientific theory is all well and good but in a hobby that is a different experience for every listener, it means s0d all.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Colourofspring
formatting

[Addicted to music]

speakers are very subjective and personal.  If you look at ASR, Amir measures a set of Magnaplanars and refer to them as a incomplete design flaw.....   Yet I was blown away when I was at a HiFI show when the Magnaplanar 1.7r with a sub was driven by Sander Electronics, an OPPO 105 that was DEQX.     I spent 3-4hrs listening to my files and then decided to purchase a set!   
The following HF show, it was even better and possible the best I heard due to the room size and Bill was using Magnaplanar Bass panels....  

Edited April 8, 2021 by Addicted to music

[Chill3]

2 hours ago, twofires said:

 

My favourite is his summary on the Harbeth Monitor 30.2:

 

Its measured performance confirms that the Monitor 30.2 is as well-engineered a design as I have come to expect from Alan Shaw and his respect for the BBC tradition.

 

What's even better is that Herb opens his subjective review of the speaker with the line "everything sounds like what it's made of" which, to me, reads like an open declaration of expectation bias.

 

The whole thing feels like hifi in a nutshell.

 

On the Special 40s though, JA wrote both halves, and concluded the subjective half with this:

 

Perhaps, then, not too much should be made of this potential Achilles' heel. As I write these words, I'm again listening to the Rachmaninoff, and yes, in critical listening mode, I can hear the congestion in the piano's midrange. But in listening-to-music mode, that congestion is outweighed by everything else the Dynaudio Special Forty does right—which seems to be just about everything.

 

To me, that doesn't feel 100% like face-saving double talk - but then I would say that owning the speakers, wouldn't I?

Yep, and also of note - the Special 40s are listed as Recommended B (limited low frequencies) 

[andrewjamesdean]

Thanks for posting this - for nearly 12 months I have foolishly been loving the sound these speakers make in my system, but have now seen the error of my ways. In the bin they go!

[allthumbs]

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

 If you look at ASR, Amir measures a set of Magnaplanars and refer to them as a incomplete design flaw.....

 True, but he goes all out to try and present the speaker in its best light, by making alterations to the Kippel to try and capture as best as possible the "true" measurements, measurements he mentions match those of another reviewer.

 

He also attempts, positioning and EQ settings and inviting input from readers as to how best optimise measuring the LRS. Some aspects of the speakers performance he is very enthusiastic about and others not so much and other not at all.

 

Amir even "delights" in the sound of the Maggies on some tracks. His listening preferences seem to include deep bass and a smooth highs.

 

In the end given the measurements and his listening session he doesn't dismiss speakers of any kind as far as I remember out of hand, but does hold back on "recommending" them.

 

Remembering also the speaker is tested in mono, not with a sub nor with DSP compensation and even admits that the complexity of measuring the LRS speaker is very complex and beyond even the capabilities of the Kippel system.

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/magnepan-lrs-speaker-review.16068/

[rantan]

1 hour ago, andrewjamesdean said:

Thanks for posting this - for nearly 12 months I have foolishly been loving the sound these speakers make in my system, but have now seen the error of my ways. In the bin they go!

 

I am really pleased you are enjoying them so much, as are many others.

 

Just one thing though, you forgot this....................................................

[Michael Parin]

14 hours ago, petetherock said:

 

Here my review of the Heritage Special:

https://peteswrite.blogspot.com/2021/04/dynaudio-heritage-special-speaker-review.html 

 

You'll need to cut off a finger to afford them, and then another one to get the Hegel H390, but the synergy is sweet..

Hi Pete - great review - I have HS pair 404 and H390 ( less than 6 months old, got it for $6500 ! - gotta love S'net Classifieds)

The sound is magical and it's very hard to stop listening - even better since installing IsoAcoustics Gaia lll to replace stand 20 spikes

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by michaelp2

[petetherock]

You got them both for 6500??? That’s amazing !! 

Get some solid cables

im using kimber 

I’ll put some asphalt panels under the slabs too if the missus allows  

[Michael Parin]

3 hours ago, petetherock said:

You got them both for 6500??? That’s amazing !! 

Get some solid cables

im using kimber 

I’ll put some asphalt panels under the slabs too if the missus allows  

No, I thought that may cause confusion - just the H390 for $6,500 - full tote on the HS..

The next upgrade in a few days - once my new PC is ready - is a Matrix Element H USB card and  and Clay Geiseler's latest PSU

[Al.M]

I wouldn’t go for his total crossover overhaul but would change out the caps on the tweeter circuit to higher quality such as metal film units, which would be much lower cost and risk.

 

I’ve done that in speakers and found about a subjective 10-20% lift in tweeter clarity. The upgrade cost might be say $20 - 100 depending on how many in series caps are involved. Instead of changing the whole cap, one can use a cheaper but extremely high quality lower value 0.1uf cap piggy backed parallel to the existing one at about $10 each. Also, changing out $0.5-1 sand cast resistors on the tweeter path can make about 10% difference using $10 higher quality ones. There is one off them I the top let of pic below, might already be there.

 

If one doesnt like it, can be easily reversed by desoldering and virtually no sign of mods remain. The Bennic polypropylene caps in pic are about $5-10 each and be average sounding vs audiophile quality metal film versions that can be about $20-100. The Dynaudio low grade electrolytic caps can be about $3-10 each.

 

Other discussions in link below and my very rough interpretation of the crossover circuit schematic hand drawing. Perhaps others can improve on it https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/dynaudio-special-forty.781463/page-3

 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Al.M

[mjledme]

I don't necessarily agree with Amir or have to diss him, but I hope to see his response to this, explaining the use of inductors to show the EMI of speaker cables...

 

 

And, if his point is that by using his updates you can transform the Special 40 to better speakers, that sounds not convincing to me at all...

Edited April 10, 2021 by mjledme