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Isolating the support and table vs isolating only the table


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I have a Rega RP40 turntable. 
I also have a very light and rigid dedicated three legged steel stand for the turntable. 
I also have spare IsoAcoustics footers. 
 

Which option would you choose and why:

 

1. sit the turntable with standard Rega feet atop the dedicated support table with IsoAcoustics footers in the bottom of each of the three support legs. This way, the Rega AND the support structure are both decoupled from the floor. 

 

2. sit the turntable on three IsoAcoustics footers which then sits on the dedicated support table spiked at the bottom. The turntable is decoupled and the support stand is coupled to the floor. 
 

Option 2 will have more stability as only the turntable is decoupled and wobbly. But option 2 would also have less decoupled mass. 

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very interested in your thoughts. 

thanks. 

Edited by Winno
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Posted (edited)

I actually just found this on the IA website:

 

D88A9B50-FB8A-4B98-A746-A9F258E22C13.thumb.png.d7f81610e24d0af9c296263e050cf83a.png
 

would turntables be the same? Using the suggestion above will see the footers used immediately under the turntable which will also see a lower suspended mass. 

Edited by Winno
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I'd isolate as close to the table as possible, so footers under the table.

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Whilst I think Ian's advice:

 

7 minutes ago, muon* said:

I'd isolate as close to the table as possible, so footers under the table.

 

... is sound, in terms of your Qu, @Winno:

 

33 minutes ago, Winno said:

 

would turntables be the same? Using the suggestion above will see the footers used immediately under the turntable which will also see a lower suspended mass. 

 

 

... shirley, the key issue here is ... what weight range are your IsoAcoustics footers designed for?

 

Andy

 

 

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47 minutes ago, andyr said:

Whilst I think Ian's advice:

 

 

... is sound, in terms of your Qu, @Winno:

 

 

... shirley, the key issue here is ... what weight range are your IsoAcoustics footers designed for?

 

Andy

 

 

Thanks Andy. 
I should have mentioned that either option will use a set of footers designed for the mass in question. 

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I found that my  Rega sounded best coupled rather than decoupled to a solid mass surface. I tried lots of decoupling methods - sorbothane, squash balls, slate, bamboo etc etc and they always killed the natural energy and dynamics of the table. It’s a question of trying things out and seeing what it does to the sound. 

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I would suggest that isolating both the turntable and the support is beneficial.  If you can reduce the problem from the support, then there is less problem being transmitted to the turntable and therefore less severe interventions are required for the turntable.

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Personally I always thought Rega's sounded better on heavy furniture that had nothing else on it or in it. (E.G. books, draws etc.)

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Ive tried

- stock feet

- tangospinner feet which really just a way to level the TT, not much isolation

- butchers block on bunnings squares

- funk firm boings. 

Im loving the boings, the table is wobbly and seemed strange to use at the start, but used to it now and to me its perfect.

 

cant comment on which one sounds better, but i can tell that the boings are best at making sure any vibrations dont get to the plinth which was my goal. Ive tested this by using a vibration iphone app, and also the stylus sitting on a record with volume cranked while tapping the wall hung unit its sitting on
 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 06/04/2021 at 6:57 PM, buddyev said:

I found that my  Rega sounded best coupled rather than decoupled to a solid mass surface. I tried lots of decoupling methods - sorbothane, squash balls, slate, bamboo etc etc and they always killed the natural energy and dynamics of the table. It’s a question of trying things out and seeing what it does to the sound. 

No turntable should be coupled to its shelf or stand.

Simply put spikes or similar couple the stand or shelf to the plinth adding its vibrations to the party. Energy can not be created or destroyed all changes to another form. If we have Sorbothane footers they move and they convert vibrational energy to heat preventing vibrations from plinth getting to the turntable. Best solution is a solid secure frame stand on a solid wall and  the stand coupled to mass of the wall. This mass takes a lot of energy to start vibrating. So Stand is mostlyly out of the equation, then Sorbothane footers isolating any potential remaining ringing from the stand getting to the plinth, then the turntable plinth.  

Cheers

Chris

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When I have had tricky turntable situations, I have had good success by introducing a mass between the stand/support and the table, with vibration absorbtion under and above it.  This is what is behind people putting those butcher's blocks under their tables.  I put a firmer absorbing layer under the mass/block, and more typical turntable feet/pods/whatever between the mass/block and the turntable.  Even on a flimsy stand, this renders the turntable virtually immune to footsteps,  and nearly eliminates acoustic feedback provided the speakers aren't aimed at the turntable.

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24 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

When I have had tricky turntable situations, I have had good success by introducing a mass between the stand/support and the table, with vibration absorbtion under and above it.  This is what is behind people putting those butcher's blocks under their tables.  I put a firmer absorbing layer under the mass/block, and more typical turntable feet/pods/whatever between the mass/block and the turntable.  Even on a flimsy stand, this renders the turntable virtually immune to footsteps,  and nearly eliminates acoustic feedback provided the speakers aren't aimed at the turntable.

Mass does not damp, mass takes more energy to start moving and when it does start it is harder to stop. Mass can help but for mass to have any positive effect it needs to be quite massive. I have played with mass damping (I know it does not damp but that seems to be the term) and it really does not help till you get to maybe 25kg. I eventually made a 40kg plinth for my Commonwealth, but I did not rely on mass alone I layered it to give it some constrained damping. Basically when vibrational energy passes a junction the frequency changes and energy is converted to heat ie vibration is lost which is good.

Back to butchers block problem with this approach is block is not that heavy and flat. Flat is good at catching vibrations from the room so adding a flat surface like this under a turntable is adding a surface that will vibrate. Adding Sorbothane will help, but removing the block and just using Sorbothane will be better as the flat surface is gone. This topic comes up a lot, in a nutshell best stand is probably a tubular steel frame bolted to the wall and tubes filled with dry sand. The sand will damp the frame and the wall will mass damp the frame to and with no flat surfaces little vibrational energy will be collected anyway (think this is why speakers are large cones as this is what is best to move air). Next Sorbothane footers which will both damp turntable plinth and the frame stand, then the Turntable.

Some turntable plinths are better than others, example is the Technics which has a well damped plinth, compared to any MDF or box plinth which will have issues. The latter type of plinth IMO the best solution is maybe a Sandbox sitting the belly of the plinth into the sand and isolate the whole box with Sorbothane footers. I would not be adding any flat surface and using it to mass damp, it gets complicated re resonant frequencies, Sand would be most simple solution I feel.

Chris

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1 minute ago, cafe latte said:

Mass does not damp, mass takes more energy to start moving and when it does start it is harder to stop. Mass can help but for mass to have any positive effect it needs to be quite massive. I have played with mass damping (I know it does not damp but that seems to be the term) and it really does not help till you get to maybe 25kg. I eventually made a 40kg plinth for my Commonwealth, but I did not rely on mass alone I layered it to give it some constrained damping. Basically when vibrational energy passes a junction the frequency changes and energy is converted to heat ie vibration is lost which is good.

Back to butchers block problem with this approach is block is not that heavy and flat. Flat is good at catching vibrations from the room so adding a flat surface like this under a turntable is adding a surface that will vibrate. Adding Sorbothane will help, but removing the block and just using Sorbothane will be better as the flat surface is gone.

 

I found the block in between absorbing layers helps.  It may be more because of the layering than the mass.  I feel that it  helps "trap" the vibrations in the absorbing layers until they are converted to heat energy.  I also have layered the main plinth - as you describe.  That too had a very positive effect

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58 minutes ago, cafe latte said:

Simply put spikes or similar couple the stand or shelf to the plinth adding its vibrations to the party.

 

 

...  and it doesn't help that they are still sold everywhere as "isolating" spikes.

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1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

...  and it doesn't help that they are still sold everywhere as "isolating" spikes.

Yes that is annoying as spikes do nothing of the sort.

Chris

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The DekStand for the Linn LP12 is an extremely lightweight tubular (?aluminium) stand with plastic connectors between tubes and a double width plate on the bottom. The top is a foam and laminate sandwich. When it is used on a hard surface they provided very thick (±1 cm) felt slabs on which to sit the stand for isolation. The recommendation was for the t/t to sit directly on the top.

 

When it was demonstrated to me I immediately took one home.

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