Upgrade to Altair G1 or use CXN V1 as streamer and buy new DAC?

[PeterB7858]

49 minutes ago, anandpkumar said:

Another happy user of the Auralic family - though I have the older Aries femto. Highly recommended brand. I use Andriod mostly through BubbleUpnP. Not the best solution compared to the iOS interface, but you can live with it. You do need an iPad/iPhone for the first time configuration or if you need to make any changes to the settings. I have my Auralic streamer connected to a WiFi setup and have had no problems over the past year or so running Tidal. No buffering/lag - I do have a reasonably fast wifi setup though!

 

Good to hear, Anand.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

IOS interfaces won't be a problem for me so the Altair should be easy to control.

My WiFi is reasonably fast and can transfer 24/96 music well. It struggles a bit at different times of the day with 24/192 files though, but that is more likely to be the single-band wireless N dongle of the CXN, rather than the network.

 

Regards,

 

Peter

[lenticularis]

13 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

 

Thanks, David.

I will need to do some research on the Piccolo. I've never come across it before.

Auralic and Gieseler should be a fine combo.

 

Regards,

 

Peter

Peter, if Auralic Aries were more readily available then I would advocate looking for one, however they are highly sought after and generally retained. I actually sold one because I went for some room correction using miniDSP’s SHD studio that is also a streamer using Ethernet rather than the Aries’ preferred wi-fi over its own Ethernet option. I wasn’t convinced of the SHD Studio’s streaming SQ so now I actually feed it with another Aries Femto I located on another audio marketplace. My DAC journey progressed from MBP, through Schiit Modi 3, through Gieseler Klein III, to the Kompakt. I bought the first production Kompakt s/n 0001, such is my  satisfaction and faith in Clay’s@Gieseler Audio abilities and integrity (he doesn’t pay me for these plugs BTW ).

 

Anyway, had I not sourced another Aries then I would jump at the Aria Piccolo. It seems to have wi-fi connectivity and that avoids the whole ballgame of Ethernet cables, Ethernet regen ‘disciples’, network switches, etc, etc.

 

Re Gieseler DACs, they always sell quickly on here and Clay may have a demo unit available for evaluation.

 

I love that we can have these types of discussion on SNA. I learnt so much from it when starting to stream myself a couple of years ago.

[PeterB7858]

43 minutes ago, lenticularis said:

Peter, if Auralic Aries were more readily available then I would advocate looking for one, however they are highly sought after and generally retained. I actually sold one because I went for some room correction using miniDSP’s SHD studio that is also a streamer using Ethernet rather than the Aries’ preferred wi-fi over its own Ethernet option. I wasn’t convinced of the SHD Studio’s streaming SQ so now I actually feed it with another Aries Femto I located on another audio marketplace. My DAC journey progressed from MBP, through Schiit Modi 3, through Gieseler Klein III, to the Kompakt. I bought the first production Kompakt s/n 0001, such is my  satisfaction and faith in Clay’s@Gieseler Audio abilities and integrity (he doesn’t pay me for these plugs BTW ).

 

Anyway, had I not sourced another Aries then I would jump at the Aria Piccolo. It seems to have wi-fi connectivity and that avoids the whole ballgame of Ethernet cables, Ethernet regen ‘disciples’, network switches, etc, etc.

 

Re Gieseler DACs, they always sell quickly on here and Clay may have a demo unit available for evaluation.

 

I love that we can have these types of discussion on SNA. I learnt so much from it when starting to stream myself a couple of years ago.

 

 Thanks, David.

I must admit that I have looked at the Gieseler website a number of times over the last six months because of the good reports from SNA members but low stock has been an issue, due to COVID interfering with supply lines, I'm guessing.

There is one Fein II DAC available on the site (USB input only). I've just been flicking through some comments from members with this DAC and the praise is consistent.

And you think it would be a good match with the Aria Piccolo as server? I'm assuming that means that the Piccolo is a DAC-less version?

I was going to ask but haven't got to it yet.

The two combined fit within my budget...

Interesting.

I will need to do some more homework.

 

P.S. No analogue XLR outs of the Piccolo is a bit disappointing but perhaps not a deal breaker.

 

Regards,

 

Peter

Edited April 7, 2021 by PeterB7858

[Snoopy8]

4 hours ago, PeterB7858 said:

DSP tools are not a deal breaker but it would be good if they could be part of the setup, since room treatment is not a realistic option at the moment. The Altair G1 includes parametric EQ and wall boundary reflection tools in the Lightning DS app, so they would seem to be a viable option. I can use REW and have the mics, etc.. to analyse the setup and then just add some low end EQ in to, hopefully, tame a few room modes.

DSP is more than measuring and adding a few PEQS.  Given you have no room treatment, Dirac is worthy of deeper investigation.

 

4 hours ago, PeterB7858 said:

I did investigate the NAD C 658 with Dirac Live and, it could be a viable option, but I'm not sure if it is really going to give me a big step up in SQ over the Audirvana/EQ Audio Unit option I currently have? Happy to hear from others if they have a different view re this. I can actually audition this against the Altair at a local dealer, too.

I would expect the Altair to beat the C658 when you audition them out of the box.  This is because Dirac Live has not been set up on the demo box. Depending on your room, Dirac Live could make a bigger difference in SQ than swapping over to a better streamer/DAC. 

 

4 hours ago, PeterB7858 said:

I also investigated Lumin products and, as you say, they are highly regarded, but all seem to require an ethernet connection to function? No WiFi? And adding a Lumin L1 Music server is quite expensive. The Altair can include a 2TB internal HDD/SSD for an extra $400 or so.

You seem to have painted your self into a corner by requiring Wifi.  There is a good reason why many high end streamer/DACs have only Ethernet; better SQ.

 

 

[anandpkumar]

20 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

 I must admit that I have looked at the Gieseler website a number of times over the last six months because of the good reports from SNA members but low stock has been an issue, due to COVID interfering with supply lines, I'm guessing.

 

 

There was a shortage of Clay's (Gieseler Audio) DACs because he uses the AKM chips and these chips have been unavailable for a few months since a fire broke out at the AKM factory in Japan

 

As per a recent post from Clay, he's now producing a new batch with Wolfson chips. Might be worth reaching out to him. I think he has a 30 day return policy - so you can safely try out in your system. I've heard of great synergy between Auralic streamers and Gieseler DACs, and Clay himself uses one of the Auralic streamers

 

 

[PeterB7858]

Thanks, again for your thoughts, Snoop.

You are right. I was a bit trite with my description of DSP and Dirac does seem to be a quality, more comprehensive product. Are you using Dirac over the whole audio spectrum, or just the low end? Hopefully I can find a store with a C 658 setup to showcase Dirac.

Without being able to demo both the C 658 with Dirac and the Altair with PEQ and speaker boundary tweaks , at home, it will be tough to compare them. I tend to think that you are right re the Altair sounding better than the Dirac-less C 658 in isolation. 
And, I agree, that having an Ethernet connection nearby would be optimal but there are some people out there who think WiFi can sound as good as, if not better, than Ethernet, if it is implemented properly. 
Contrariness is the hifi world's middle name . 
Regards,

Peter
 

[Snoopy8]

51 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

You are right. I was a bit trite with my description of DSP and Dirac does seem to be a quality, more comprehensive product. Are you using Dirac over the whole audio spectrum, or just the low end?

I am only using Dirac with my HT setup and use it full range.  You are correct in saying some people prefer to use room correction (& Dirac) over the bass frequencies.  Do not have Dirac for my stereo, in part because my mains have a well controlled response in my open plan family room.  I do bass room correction with dual subs integrated using MSO.  (no, not the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra!  )

 

51 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

 Hopefully I can find a store with a C 658 setup to showcase Dirac.

Let me know if you find the first one who has implemented Dirac! And I have my doubts that there are many retailers who have used it.

 

51 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

And, I agree, that having an Ethernet connection nearby would be optimal but there are some people out there who think WiFi can sound as good as, if not better, than Ethernet, if it is implemented properly. 

Contrariness is the hifi world's middle name .

I bolded your answer; that is always the escape clause. If you want even more contrarian views (correction, a minefield with many explosive episodes), look at Ethernet switches, cables...

Edited April 7, 2021 by Snoopy8
Typo

[lenticularis]

1 hour ago, PeterB7858 said:

 

 Thanks, David.

I must admit that I have looked at the Gieseler website a number of times over the last six months because of the good reports from SNA members but low stock has been an issue, due to COVID interfering with supply lines, I'm guessing.

There is one Fein II DAC available on the site (USB input only). 

And you think it would be a good match with the Aria Piccolo as server? I'm assuming that means that the Piccolo is a DAC-less version?

 

....The two combined fit within my budget...

Peter

Yes Peter, the AKM factory fire was a horrible event for any users of those DAC chips in their DACs, such as all of the Gieseler range. As Snoopy said, Clay very recently reported that he has re-engineered his Kompakt DAC with a Wolfson chip.

 

Ethernet vs wi-fi streamer connectivity: Auralic espouse wi-fi as their preferred method and they have both supplied.

 

It's not clear from that Piccolo advert if it is a DAC-included version or not. The seller is also in Melbourne so perhaps you could appraise it against your CXN?

[BioBrian]

14 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I do bass room correction with dual subs integrated using MSO.  (no, not the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra!  )

 

Funny to see this, Snoop. I used to work in the MSO, and I remember the engineers had a miserable time with bass integration, trying to record a large orchestra in the very resonant Waverley Theatre (yes, it was the '70s).

 

I tend to avoid live orchestral recordings for the same reason: thick and boomy, whatever the playback equipment.

[PeterB7858]

Thanks for all the great information and discussion, to date.. 

 

After a bit of a ponder, I think my first move is to actually audition the Altair G1 against a CXN V2, which I know I can do at a store in Melbourne. They also sell NAD so I will put it on them to set up the C 658 with Dirac in the same room, and see how they respond.

 

I got all excited with the various other combinations mentioned, and would love to try some of them, but I will look to, in the first instance, KEEP IT SIMPLE .

 

An internal HD in the Altair actually gives me almost all the functionality I would like, so if trialling it against the CXN V2 and/or the C 658, provides me with the best SQ solution, given my musical tastes, then I will probably just go with it.

 

Any two, or three, box solution looks like it will require bringing together components from different sellers, new and/or second-hand, and also require more fretting about cables, power supplies, etc, etc...

 

Please feel free to keep the discussion going, though. I will follow it with great interest, and definitely report back when I have done some auditioning.

 

Thanks, again.

 

Kind regards,

 

Peter..

 

[Jventer]

1 hour ago, PeterB7858 said:

 

After a bit of a ponder, I think my first move is to actually audition the Altair G1 against a CXN V2, which I know I can do at a store in Melbourne. They also sell NAD so I will put it on them to set up the C 658 with Dirac in the same room, and see how they respond.

 

 

 

+1

[peppy]

@Geoff@HeyNow Hi-Fi

[srms]

On 07/04/2021 at 2:02 PM, lenticularis said:

It's not clear from that Piccolo advert if it is a DAC-included version or not. The seller is also in Melbourne so perhaps you could appraise it against your CXN?

I have a Piccolo and looking at the image of the rear of the one you are referring to, it looks like the model without the DAC, the two rubber plugs fill the hole where the RCA plugs would be. (mine is the same) I have never used mine on Wi-Fi so I can't comment on how that sounds. 

 

Good luck with the search

[PeterB7858]

39 minutes ago, srms said:

I have a Piccolo and looking at the image of the rear of the one you are referring to, it looks like the model without the DAC, the two rubber plugs fill the hole where the RCA plugs would be. (mine is the same) I have never used mine on Wi-Fi so I can't comment on how that sounds. 

 

Good luck with the search

 

Thanks for your help, Adrian.

I would have contacted the Piccolo owner but I really want to audition the Altair first (hopefully early next week) to get my head around what SQ improvement spending that type of money might bring.

 

If I go Altair, I think I will try streaming files from a USB 3.0 SSD attached to my router via WiFi, first, and see how that goes.

If that's not optimal, I will consider buying a basic NAS setup, and/or installing Ethernet, but I only have about 0.6TB of music files, so a NAS seems a bit of an overkill.

 

Interestingly, I read this last night:

https://community.auralic.com/t/internal-hard-drives/4547

"...The best sound quality option is to use any streamer but put music inside a NAS drive. It is critical to separate keep hard drive away from audio circuit, for best sound quality result. Putting hard drive inside our streaming device or using USB plugged to the back of the unit will both degrade sound quality comparing to let the machine read file from NAS drive...."

which makes me less keen to go the internal SSD or HDD that I was contemplating.

 

But I still need to check stuff out first and see what might work best for my setup..

 

Thanks, for your support.

 

Kind regards,

 

Peter.

[Gieseler Audio]

Interesting I found a German site that compared the sound quality of a Auralic Aries G2.1 using a internal SSD vs a Melco server.

They could hardly detect a difference 

Quote

As I said, the G2.1 was equipped with a two terabyte SSD by the sales department, which should be beneficial for the sound quality. The differences between the internal hard drive and NAS are almost negligible, even with a very high-resolution system - but only almost: When the data comes from the Melco, the playback appears a bit less, cleaner and more plastic. But maybe that has a little to do with the fact that I have been familiar with the tonal character of the Melco for years. In principle, Xuanqian Wang prefers the use of a NAS to the internal hard drive, as it is not only possible to store music data on it. The possibility of integrating a hard disk into the G2.1 is primarily intended for those of its owners whowho prefer a simple solution for playing music files. But whether with or without an internal hard drive: For me, the G2.1 combines the sonic advantages of the G1 and G2.

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/2885-auralic-aries-g2-1?start%3D2

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Gieseler Audio
More info

[PeterB7858]

4 hours ago, Gieseler Audio said:

Interesting I found a German site that compared the sound quality of a Auralic Aries G2.1 using a internal SSD vs a Melco server.

They could hardly detect a difference 

Quote

As I said, the G2.1 was equipped with a two terabyte SSD by the sales department, which should be beneficial for the sound quality. The differences between the internal hard drive and NAS are almost negligible, even with a very high-resolution system - but only almost: When the data comes from the Melco, the playback appears a bit less, cleaner and more plastic. But maybe that has a little to do with the fact that I have been familiar with the tonal character of the Melco for years. In principle, Xuanqian Wang prefers the use of a NAS to the internal hard drive, as it is not only possible to store music data on it. The possibility of integrating a hard disk into the G2.1 is primarily intended for those of its owners whowho prefer a simple solution for playing music files. But whether with or without an internal hard drive: For me, the G2.1 combines the sonic advantages of the G1 and G2.

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/2885-auralic-aries-g2-1?start%3D2

 

Thanks, Clay (?).

 

Interesting, for sure.

 

And, there are also a number of posts on community.auralic where people are happy campers with the sound that are getting from an internal SSD drive fitted in the Altair G1.

 

You've gotta love our hobby .

 

The two other factors that, may, or may not be, issues with an internal HD in the Altair G1 relate to, firstly, SSD vs HDD (and I have read different articles with differing advice purportedly from Auralic re this) and, secondly, it seems that not all SSDs/HHDs play well with the Altair in terms of the power that they draw from the system when working hard (https://community.auralic.com/t/altair-g1-internal-hd-recommendation/6556)...

 

I know I said that I want to KEEP IT SIMPLE but I tend to overthink and do a LOT of research before I buy things and that leads to all this sort of stuff being thrown up.

 

There is every chance an Altair G1 with a dealer-fitted SSD kit and drive will work perfectly and sound great. And I will explore this more with a dealer when I audition one.

 

That said, I am currently using the music server software that came with my ASUS RT-AC68U router to sucessfully stream music files via WiFi to my CXN V1 from a USB 3.0 SSD attached directly to the router with an AudioQuest Cinnamon cable (USB 3.0 A to micro) and it sounds really good and loads quickly. The (clunky) StreamMagic app on my iPhone sees it no problems at all in the Library.

 

Sooooo, I thought I might try this first if I buy the Altair, and then, if I feel it is worth trying it out, buy an official Auralic internal drive kit ($200 for a small metal case and a $10 cable...) and install an SSD myself (but this, apparently, has possible initialisation pitfalls, as well...)

 

Plenty of fun to be had .

 

Kind regards,

 

Peter.

 

P.S. I also read in a different post on community.auralic that it might be worth trying an iFi iSilence+ between the SSD and the router...

https://community.auralic.com/t/does-an-hdd-sound-better-than-an-ssd/767  

After a bit of searching as to whether this was even workable I found this "...It can also act as a filter between a playback machine and an external hard drive where a music library is stored..." on the iFi website (https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Tech-note-iFi-audio-iDefender_iSilencer_Mar2020.pdf).

 

As I said above, I tend to overthink things .

[PeterB7858]

Alright.

 

Riddle me this, Batman…

 

If using an external, bus-powered USB 3.0 SSD as a music files source, plugged directly into a component such as the Altair G1 (or CXN V1 for that matter), is less than optimal because the external device is pulling power from the host device and injecting EMI noise (as per the assertion in a previous comment), is there such a thing as a powered USB hub that will completely power the SSD and result in data ONLY being fed into the Altair G1?

 

Or, alternatively, using the same type of setup to externally power an SSD plugged directly into the USB 3.0 port on my router and using it’s in-built music server software as a pseudo NAS?

 

Something like this, for example (which seems to have a 3.0 data-only output)?

 

https://www.mwave.com.au/product/startech-4-port-usb-30-hub-5gbps-1c3a-self-powered-usb-typea-hub-ac12410

 

Has anyone tried something like this before?

 

Or is this just a poor excuse for a NAS, anyway, and I should just bite the bullet on one?

 

Which, I assume, really means buying the NAS. Plus a couple of new internal drives. And possible a better power supply. And…

 

Any thoughts welcome.

 

Kind regards,

 

Peter.

Edited April 12, 2021 by PeterB7858
Clarification

[Snoopy8]

On 10/04/2021 at 6:50 AM, PeterB7858 said:

As I said above, I tend to overthink things .

Agreed!    

 

Perhaps it may help if I explain my setup and my previous experience with various streamers.  Currently using an Intel NUC running SnakeOilOS (Linux based).  SQ is best using internal memory, then internal SSD.  I already had my music on a NAS, but If I did not, I would have got a much larger SSD.  SSD is now cheap enough that I would not consider HDD.  Alternately, I would have considered a powered USB drive.  I found that NAS was better than unpowered USB drive but not as good as a powered USB drive. 

 

If you do not have a NAS, suggest skipping it.  Please park aside any discussion on Ethernet, router, switch, power supplies.  There is an entire rabbit warren to explore, for later.

 

If I am not mistaken,  you are close to making a decision on the Auralic with internal SSD.  Go for it, and I expect you will be a happy chappy...

[PeterB7858]

Thanks for your assistance, Snoop.

 

I am hopefully auditioning the G1 on Wednesday morning, so, as you say, I may very well be a happy chappy - end of story.

 

Point of clarification, though. When you talk about a “powered USB hub” do you mean the NUC or something different. If something different, can you give me a specific example or link?
 

Muddying the waters further, I am planning to upgrade my late 2012 Mac Mini to the latest Mini with an M1 core, so I will have the older Mini floating that could be used as a dedicated music server running Audirvana as a “NAS” connected to my router via Ethernet. 
 

Just to complicate things further . 
 

Take care.

 

Peter

[Snoopy8]

10 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

Point of clarification, though. When you talk about a “powered USB hub” do you mean the NUC or something different. If something different, can you give me a specific example or link?

When I refer to a powered uSB drive, I mean a USB drive with its own power supply. A standard USB drive will draw power from its host and may affect SQ.

13 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

Muddying the waters further, I am planning to upgrade my late 2012 Mac Mini to the latest Mini with an M1 core, so I will have the older Mini floating that could be used as a dedicated music server running Audirvana as a “NAS” connected to my router via Ethernet. 

 

Just to complicate things further .

While the Mac Mini is better than many Win PCs, it will lose to the Auralic.  So, not a complication, just another validation point for going Auralic.

[PeterB7858]

22 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

When I refer to a powered uSB drive, I mean a USB drive with its own power supply. A standard USB drive will draw power from its host and may affect SQ.

Thanks.
I am aware of plenty of powered HHD's but I haven’t been able to find a powered SSD? Is there such a beast? And does it really matter...
 

 

[Snoopy8]

4 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

Thanks.
I am aware of plenty of powered HHD's but I haven’t been able to find a powered SSD? Is there such a beast? And does it really matter...

SATA SSDs are the same as SATA HDDs, so you can get a powered cradle.  But, suggest this be a secondary focus and get the largest internal SSD you can afford.

[PeterB7858]

2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

SATA SSDs are the same as SATA HDDs, so you can get a powered cradle.  But, suggest this be a secondary focus and get the largest internal SSD you can afford.

Ah, okay.

Thanks for the clarification. 
And yes, I focusing on the internal SSD in the G1 is the way to go. 

[PeterB7858]

On 12/04/2021 at 7:30 PM, Snoopy8 said:

If I am not mistaken,  you are close to making a decision on the Auralic with internal SSD.  Go for it, and I expect you will be a happy chappy...

 

Very prescient of you, Snoop!

 

I auditioned the Altair G1 at a local hifi shop in Melbourne on Wednesday morning. I knew they also sold PMC speakers and, luckily, they were able to use the same speakers as I have at home during the audition.

It was obvious from the first song that the G1 was a step up in class from the CXN and playing other songs that I am very familiar with, reinforced this clearly.

The music seemed less "forced", there was a better sense of instrument separation and a more expansive soundstage, and, bass had greater solidity and I could follow bass lines more easily in the mix. The improvements came across the board, really.

 

Anyway, I got a price from them, and there is definitely some wriggle room down from the RRP, and said I needed to think about it.

 

Luckily, an SNA member, who has been following this thread, messaged me and offered to sell me the G1 he bought earlier this year, for a very fair price, which I accepted .

He wants to change direction re his stereo setup and, for a variety of compelling reasons, hadn't even initialised the unit.

It also came with a 2TB SSD and the internal Auralic mounting kit .

 

He was a wonderful person to deal with and went out of his way to organise the interstate freight required and I had the unit in my hot little hands Friday just after lunch.

 

And the home verdict? It is just a great bit of kit.

 

A bit fiddly to initialise the internal SSD and copy across 0.6TB of files but the time I have put in is definitely worth it.

 

I thought the CXN was good. And it is in the price bracket it competes with.

The Altair G1 is definitely a more refined, detailed, organic listen, though, and a worthy upgrade.

 

Thanks to all who helped out along the way.

 

And thanks, especially, to the SNA member who reached out to me with his generous offer.

 

I will perhaps update things in a week or so, when the unit has settled in to my system.

 

Kind regards,

Peter.

[dbastin]

On 06/04/2021 at 4:01 PM, Jventer said:

Auralic products only work with Apple products. (Not sure if it is impossible to control via Android or if there are work  arounds).

I just came across this thread.

I am using Auralic Aries G! in Roon Ready mode and can control it with an Android tablet.  I gather it is Lightning that is Apple only.

 

On 07/04/2021 at 6:08 AM, PeterB7858 said:

My NBN modem and router are in another room in the house, so I would need to run ethernet to the living room

Have you considered running fibre?

 

On 07/04/2021 at 9:50 AM, lenticularis said:

wi-fi connectivity and that avoids the whole ballgame of Ethernet cables, Ethernet regen ‘disciples’, network switches, etc, etc.

Hmm, you might find many have experienced that ethernet cable and fibre is better than wifi.