Controversial speaker placement (or not?)

[andyr]

3 hours ago, Arthur K said:

 

John,  you're right about tweeter height, however, in my case the Thiels are too large and - by design - the mid and tweeter drivers are a bit higher than ear level when seated.

The only other way this can be adjusted is by tilting the cabinets forward by a few degrees... which, I may try!  Thanks!

 

 

Ummm ... or get a different (higher!) chair to sit in.  

 

Andy

 

[JohnL]

6 hours ago, Arthur K said:

 

Why isn't there a kind of a solid rotating platform made by some manufacturer and controlled by calibrated remote so, a listener can adjust the 'toe - in ' without leaving the 'hot seat'?

 

 

 

 

That's what mates are for!!!!........

Edited April 2, 2021 by JohnL

[A.K.]

11 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Ummm ... or get a different (higher!) chair to sit in.  

 

Andy

 

 

LOL! .. Now!..this will look ODD and my daughter will certainly 'certify' me when she visits.  She may even put it down to 'old age insanity' setting in... 

Edited April 2, 2021 by A.K.

[Guest Old Man Rubber]

3 minutes ago, Arthur K said:

 

LOL! .. Now!..this will look ODD and my daughter will certainly 'certify' me when she visits.  She may even put down to 'old age insanity' setting in... 

If there is a market for auto toe-in turntables for your speakers, surely an audiophile gas-lift chair should be on the cards.  Must only be the purest nitrogen under pressure, audiophile grade sorbothane feet, leather hyde from cows that have had their hearing tested by an approved audiologist and oxygen free copper for the frame 

[A.K.]

8 hours ago, JohnL said:

 

That's what mates are for!!!!........

 

Hmmm... good idea but, most of mine are fast approaching geriatric status and, at 80 kg each cabinet I don't think I'll get many volunteers John. 

[A.K.]

4 hours ago, Old Man Rubber said:

If there is a market for auto toe-in turntables for your speakers, surely an audiophile gas-lift chair should be on the cards.  Must only be the purest nitrogen under pressure, audiophile grade sorbothane feet, leather hyde from cows that have had their hearing tested by an approved audiologist and oxygen free copper for the frame 

 

LOL! LOL!... You DO have a "creative" imagination Dave!  Be careful because, some may take such advice seriously..  Food for thought for the 'snake oil' merchants.

Edited April 3, 2021 by A.K.

[RankStranger]

My first audio sherpa (Ken Bennet, now of Steve Bennet Hifi in Geelong) referred to this method as "wearing ‘em like headphones"  

[Wimbo]

Ken Ishiwata advised me to do this with my original LD50's back in the 80's. Because of where I had the speakers, it worked a treat.

[Wimbo]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

My first audio sherpa (Ken Bennet, now of Steve Bennet Hifi in Geelong) referred to this method as "wearing ‘em like headphones"  

Had a mate who used a pair of Quad 57's in headphone position.

[frednork]

Also recommended by Duntech

[muriwai]

I believe Paul Spencer from Red Spade advises as well this approach 

[A.K.]

10 hours ago, frednork said:

Also recommended by Duntech

Do you mean, Duntech promoted this 45 deg. toe in with their speakers?

[frednork]

yes as shown here from the duntech thread

[A.K.]

Interesting! 

They firing their tweeters straight at the 'hot seat', and that's the only difference from my configuration.

I have both tweeter axis's crossing each other about a meter in front of my head.

So when looking at my speakers I can just see the outside part of the cabinet, but only just.

I've used two laser beams to get the exact crossing point.

[muon*]

13 minutes ago, Arthur K said:

So when looking at my speakers I can just see the outside part of the cabinet, but only just.

That's what I ended up with, the view plane of the outside face is about 1cm.

[A.K.]

20 minutes ago, muon* said:

That's what I ended up with, the view plane of the outside face is about 1cm.

Yep!...that's about right, same here Ian.  The amount of depth I get with this configuration is insane. Never heard large speakers such as mine creating such an effect.

 

[Auracle]

16 hours ago, RankStranger said:

My first audio sherpa (Ken Bennet, now of Steve Bennet Hifi in Geelong) referred to this method as "wearing ‘em like headphones"  

 

Now there's a blast from the past!

Got kicked out of Steve's shop once.

Even Ken would be getting on now.

But I digress....

There could be a connection to recording studio monitors being setup at these angles to almost emulate headphones. 

...........just sayin'.  (don't want to start arguments here now)

I also prefer to have speakers severely toed in, (although some don't respond well to this exercise.)

I found that HF dispersion qualities played a significant role when I did those experiments way back when.

[frednork]

I think I have read an interview with Dunlavy where he suggests aiming just in front of the listener can be a good solution. as well. The benefits with aiming like this   are that the response will be closer to that the designer intended and the imaging more precise and deeper, the sweet spot will be wider with all the aforementioned attributes and side 1st reflection  will be a little later. In the end its an easy thing to try and well worth it. The other important part is that the listening position is near to that of an equilateral triangle. I am usually a little back from that  for best imaging.  As soon as you go back further the room can  start to swamp the image and it gets much weaker.

 

Agreed it can look a bit odd though.

[muon*]

When I had my ML-1's the previous way i was always adjusting my position to get that narrow sweet spot and it was sweet!

But now I'm more relaxed as I don't need to do that as being a little to the left or right doesn't change things as much, more relaxed means I find it more enjoyable.

Things seem a little cleaner too, maybe because there is less room interaction as some suggest.

[masterpaul]

Hi Arthur,
The laser pointer is a key factor giving symmetry. Make sure the distances from back and side walls are also equal.

The 45 deg angle may cause a 'hole in the middle' effect as you are seated at the 90 deg point.

Try 60 + 60 +60 deg.

Also try moving your seating position backwards and forwards to find a sweet spot.

Height is also important, you may need a higher chair.
True stereo creates a phantom 'image' typically between - and often in front of - the speaker. It's also possible to have sounds that seem to be outside the speakers. Focusing becomes more critical as frequency increases.

Many systems are arranged to be aesthetically pleasing, what they actually have is dual mono.

[A.K.]

3 hours ago, masterpaul said:

Hi Arthur,
The laser pointer is a key factor giving symmetry. Make sure the distances from back and side walls are also equal.

The 45 deg angle may cause a 'hole in the middle' effect as you are seated at the 90 deg point.

Try 60 + 60 +60 deg.

Also try moving your seating position backwards and forwards to find a sweet spot.

Height is also important, you may need a higher chair.
True stereo creates a phantom 'image' typically between - and often in front of - the speaker. It's also possible to have sounds that seem to be outside the speakers. Focusing becomes more critical as frequency increases.

Many systems are arranged to be aesthetically pleasing, what they actually have is dual mono.

 

Thanks Paul!  Yes, this calls for more experimenting with the angles and also seatting adjustment.

So you're suggesting an equilateral triangle with this 60 + 60 + 60 deg configuration. This will see me sitting at one point of the 60 deg triangle, so the tweeters will not fire 'in front of my head' but exactly where I am sitting. Is that right?

Or, having the 60 deg arrangement in place, then I should move the 'hot seat' a bit back so, the 'crossing over' beams will be slightly in front of me?

Any case, it's fascinating and I certainly will do a bit more experimenting. 

I had the Thiels for a few years now but, given their weight, I was a bit reluctant to keep moving them constantly, ....until now!   

Edited April 5, 2021 by A.K.

[Wimbo]

1 hour ago, Arthur K said:

 

Thanks Paul!  Yes, this calls for more experimenting with the angles and also seatting adjustment.

So you're suggesting an equilateral triangle with this 60 + 60 + 60 deg configuration. This will see me sitting at one point of the 60 deg triangle, so the tweeters will not fire 'in front of my head' but exactly where I am sitting. Is that right?

Or, having the 60 deg arrangement in place, then I should move the 'hot seat' a bit back so, the 'crossing over' beams will be slightly in front of me?

Any case, it's fascinating and I certainly will do a bit more experimenting. 

I had the Thiels for a few years now but, given their weight, I was a bit reluctant to keep moving them constantly, ....until now!   

What Masterpaul says is relative to Focus in a perfect situation. Room variability can upset this and having the speakers fire in front of you can help. Hence Ishiwata's comments. I would not have the speakers firing straight at your head. Direct intensity. Remember that moving the seated position backwards and forwards moves you from far field to near field which is fun to play with when you have the room. Keep your ear position away from the  wall. Ideally, space is a big key.

[A.K.]

18 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

What Masterpaul says is relative to Focus in a perfect situation. Room variability can upset this and having the speakers fire in front of you can help. Hence Ishiwata's comments. I would not have the speakers firing straight at your head. Direct intensity. Remember that moving the seated position backwards and forwards moves you from far field to near field which is fun to play with when you have the room. Keep your ear position away from the  wall. Ideally, space is a big key.

 

Τhanks for the input Wimbo!

What you say about 'direct intensity' I 've just experienced it in the last hour.

I sat on an Office chair (with castors) and moved back and forth from the 'tip' of the 60deg of the triangle.  I noticed a significant change in sound as follows:

* When sitting one mtr further from the point the two tweeters cross, I get a wide soundstage and an equally deep front to back projection of sound. 

* When I moved right on the 'tip' of the 'triangle' the soundstage remains the same but the depth changes and the musicians appear to be much more forward, almost between the speakers.

It's a very interesting effect and I found, recordings that have a lot of natural ambiance, intensify the depth effect in the first position more than the second.

 

Anyway, I am enjoying this experimenting and my living room has been totally taken over by the speakers.  Just as well I don't have an 'inspector general' here to call me back to order! 

[KRSDarwin]

Thanks Arthur,

 

I have a pair of floorstanding Paradigm Studio 100s that I have traditionally had toed in towards the prime listening position. Excellent clarity and bass but not the last word in soundstage. 
 

Having read your post and this thread I experimented with the more extreme toe in (put a tea towel under the Gaias to allow easy and fine movement). I was surprised by the definite results.  The appearance of a much better soundstage and for possibly the first time the speakers almost disappear. The cost however has been a muddying of the bass.
 

I will keep experimenting. 
 

I agree with @muon* that it looks a bit strange, and takes some getting used to. 

[A.K.]

8 hours ago, KRSDarwin said:

Thanks Arthur,

 

I have a pair of floorstanding Paradigm Studio 100s that I have traditionally had toed in towards the prime listening position. Excellent clarity and bass but not the last word in soundstage. 
 

Having read your post and this thread I experimented with the more extreme toe in (put a tea towel under the Gaias to allow easy and fine movement). I was surprised by the definite results.  The appearance of a much better soundstage and for possibly the first time the speakers almost disappear. The cost however has been a muddying of the bass.
 

I will keep experimenting. 
 

I agree with @muon* that it looks a bit strange, and takes some getting used to. 

 

Hi Kevin and thanks for the input.

 

From what I see in the photo you've included, the location of the speakers may be the cause of the less than perfect low frequencies.

In my experience, bass frequencies are the most difficult to deal with and correct anomalies.

In my case the speakers are in free space into the room, well away from the front and side walls.  To find the optimum location for best bass extension I had to experiment for days and eventually, with the help of another member here, take some measurements and install a graphic equalizer to come to a very good result.

Without causing any domestic problems, one day - just for the heck of it - try pulling these beautiful speakers a bit out into the room, maintaining the 45 deg. toe in, just to see if the bass improves at all.

I know, one has to be realistic and not allow the sound equipment 'take over' the living room so, this would only be an experiment, before you return them to their original positions.

I suspect you will like what you'll hear..