Resolving power cables do they really make a difference

[Plasmod3]

4 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

Hi John.

 

May I ask, what level of expenditure is required before notable improvements are evident in a given system?  (Honest question )

how long is a piece of string. with cables one thing that is certain here rantan...price does not equal performance. But i can say that a good quality cable is actually expensive to make.  good mu metal shielding for one costs about $200 a meter. the plugs upwards of $500 each for a good power plug. When you add up all the materials each cable costs a few thousand to make easy.

[Deepthought]

And now I see again, why I don't venture outside of the classifieds......

[Plasmod3]

35 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

No one's questioning peoples' subjective experience with cables, and no doubt their opinion is invaluable when others are seeking people who've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on countless different cables for what their subjective experience is to help guide them. I only have issue with pseudo-scientific claims about what the cables do to have recreated said subjective experiences. There are a lot of scientists here from different disciplines that are also audiophiles who understand the science and find it offensive when those claims are made out to be facts. My subjective experience is different to someone else's and they're both equally valid when expressed as such. There is a place here for both to be expressed. Carry on.

good to have your approval:-) science vs pseudo science.... why it was only 2 generations ago that the best scientists thought that illness came from malodours hence snuff bottles. what about gut faecal transplant - malarky only about ten yrs ago now mainline science. tall poppys at its very best.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Plasmod3

[Plasmod3]

57 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

I have tried power cables, John. They did nothing for me, hence my comment about my good fortune. 

it always come down to the components - get the components right then use cables to modify the sonic signature...never the other way round. you match cables to a component not a component to a cable. there is no such thing as a cable that fits all and for all uses....

Edited March 9, 2021 by Plasmod3

[buddyev]

59 minutes ago, Plasmod3 said:

good to have your approval:-) science vs pseudo science.... why it was only 2 generations ago that the best scientists thought that illness came from malodours hence snuff bottles. what about gut faecal transplant - malarky only about ten yrs ago now mainline science. tall poppys at its very best.

We’re indeed privileged to have someone at the cutting edge of scientific thinking putting the unimaginative reactionaries in their place. 

[Cloth Ears]

1 hour ago, Plasmod3 said:

good to have your approval:-) science vs pseudo science.... why it was only 2 generations ago that the best scientists thought that illness came from malodours hence snuff bottles. what about gut faecal transplant - malarky only about ten yrs ago now mainline science. tall poppys at its very best.

I'll grant you the fecal transplants, but as far as I know the snuff bottles were a way for the Chinese to take tobacco as it was illegal to smoke it at the time (for about 350 years). It was pretty much a Qing Dynasty thing, so they became much less popular after the start of the 20th century (although are still available). And don't you mean 2 centuries, not 2 generations?

[rockeater]

59 minutes ago, Plasmod3 said:

good mu metal shielding for one costs about $200 a meter. the plugs upwards of $500 each for a good power plug

To make?

Surely a plug is only two or 3 pins with screw to fix the cable (or without it, if it is welded in moulded plugs) and a housing.

If whole lot - pins and housing - were to be made of solid silver it would not cost that much. Maybe $15? Silver is $1 per gram.

Shield is just a mesh (and maybe a foil) and if a coax cable that carry frequencies of hundreds of MHz and includes 4 shields can be sold for 80 cents per meter, you could surely make a shielding for power cables for under $5 per meter, even if made from sterling silver.

 

The reason that we have such proliferation of expensive cables is that they have the biggest markup of any item in stereo merchandise.

It is a pure marketing play. 

By now, there would be very few cable makers outside of Far East and this is where all of those expensive cables are made.

 

[Guest Eggcup the Dafter]

1 hour ago, Plasmod3 said:

good to have your approval:-) science vs pseudo science.... why it was only 2 generations ago that the best scientists thought that illness came from malodours hence snuff bottles. what about gut faecal transplant - malarky only about ten yrs ago now mainline science. tall poppys at its very best.

The 1850s are many more than two generations ago where I come from... do audio power leads double your lifespan as well?

The basic understanding of electricity is also far more than two generations old, and the traditional model still keeps working for the engineers that design actual audio equipment - even the ones known to venture into the odder spaces.

[Ittaku]

Accepted science is advanced through peer reviewed journals, not advertising blurbs.

[Eggmeister]

On 06/03/2021 at 9:51 AM, blakey72 said:

Just a quicky. What do you think you should put your best power cable on? Amps or dac/source?          

 

Like I said, I would use it on the the source.

 

Sorry to interrupt your pi$$ing contest gentlemen

Edited March 9, 2021 by Eggmeister

[sir sanders zingmore]

2 hours ago, Plasmod3 said:

get the components right then use cables to modify the sonic signature.

 

I guess I gave up on getting the right components when it became apparent that my ears were made of cloth

[Plasmod3]

I think i will leave this as is - obviously there are a lot of ppl who feel very strongly on this topic  here; it is best i leave the fish to be as they swarm around the sharks. Lol i must say this has been quite an amusing affair:-) Have fun and happy listening - take joy in the systems you have:-) . As they say misery loves company

Edited March 9, 2021 by Plasmod3

[Kaynin]

2 hours ago, ark said:

Time for a double blind trial

The kangaroo court is already in session.

[Luc]

2 hours ago, Plasmod3 said:

there is no such thing as a cable that fits all and for all uses....

Oh yes there is.

 

It's called a power cord. I plug it into the wall and it's got a thingy on the end of it that saves everything if a storm comes through(just like now at my place, lightning/thinder(lower volume than thunder)/ail(almost hail but not quite there yet)/wind+noise) and every thing of worth is plugged into it via electrical cords that my sparky tagged as being legal and allowing just the right amount of power to come into everything(said it with a straight face too the smirky bugger)

 

Hit play on the remote(the amp one/and the other amp one/the CDP one/the streamer one/the PC one/the mirrored screen one/and the app on the phone one/and the tablet one for the streamer...Phew!) and eventually ...music comes out of the speakers!

Phwoar! Cutting edge!

 

Weak links everywhere except for the electrical cord which always makes everything turn on and blue annoying lights abound everywhere.

 

 

*Right. That should put an end to this thread. Mods..close it down and transfer all extant members  involved in this convo over to the Synergistic XOT thread ok.

 

 

[Plasmod3]

I do like this article from Stereophile... no doubt some here will think they are just a bunch of fools with no idea what they are talking about lol. but note the comments section as well - a good laugh there! I can't help those ppl and god knows they dont believe in audio mags:-) & of course some will feel Michael Fremer is an idiot.....not sure on what basis  or platform but yet yes those ppl do exist here! Not surprised.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/analog-corner-307-hifiction-x-quisite-st-ac-power-ps-audio

 

"cables do make a difference, even power cords," quoted DougM

Submitted by Jack L on March 2, 2021 - 12:44pm

HI

Bingo !

Whoever cable nayers should go to have their ears tested.

So, IMO, what are their excuses:-

(1) sour grapes : can't afford to own quality cables.

(2) ignorance:-
(a) believe in the myth of "everything existing must be measurable."
(b) bank on blind tests (A/B & A/B/X) without knowing blind tests
when not executed properly so often yield null result.

(a) The current limited measurement technology fails to measure a lot of
audios related to what our ear actually hear. They measured the
wrong thing.

(b) I read a paper on the problem of blind tests, to which I agree.
So often blind tests ended up with no conclusion. Why? Using the
wrong protocols.
Most most blind tests are carried out without the tested candidates
FIRST getting familiar with the sonic signatures of the test
equipment to be used, room acoustics there, etc.
The tests are carried out ASSUMING the test candidates already fully
familiar with the test venue conditions. This will make any such
tests invalid. Why?

Simple analogy of the problem: a new born baby once born to this
world never knows anything else not even their parents. It takes
time for the new-born baby to set up a module of its parents in its
brain in order to recognize the faces & voices of their parents. But
nobody else yet.

This human nature issues also apply to the test candidates who
are strangers to the new test venue conditions. How can they give
valid test results when totally "blind" to the new test environment
to them !!! ???

Yes, power cords sound different though not as obvious & substantial
as signal cables.

So I design/build audio & power cables using only 99.99% pure silver conductors for my rigs & for my audio friends with discerned ears. Otherwise, they would wreck my band accounts to finance those cable
vendors assuming pure silver cables being available in the market.

Listening is believing

Jack L

Edited March 9, 2021 by Plasmod3

[Plasmod3]

this rings true too...as per stereophile link above.  I guess i am not alone in my conclusions here.

 

'....which I concluded from the comments also consisted mostly of people who believe that "snake oil" is any audio gear that costs more than they can afford..'

[Plasmod3]

2 hours ago, Luc said:

Oh yes there is.

 

It's called a power cord. I plug it into the wall and it's got a thingy on the end of it that saves everything if a storm comes through(just like now at my place, lightning/thinder(lower volume than thunder)/ail(almost hail but not quite there yet)/wind+noise) and every thing of worth is plugged into it via electrical cords that my sparky tagged as being legal and allowing just the right amount of power to come into everything(said it with a straight face too the smirky bugger)

 

Hit play on the remote(the amp one/and the other amp one/the CDP one/the streamer one/the PC one/the mirrored screen one/and the app on the phone one/and the tablet one for the streamer...Phew!) and eventually ...music comes out of the speakers!

Phwoar! Cutting edge!

 

Weak links everywhere except for the electrical cord which always makes everything turn on and blue annoying lights abound everywhere.

 

 

*Right. That should put an end to this thread. Mods..close it down and transfer all extant members  involved in this convo over to the Synergistic XOT thread ok.

 

 

I disagree , why close down a good thread:-)

oh and i have just added in a tripoint audio elite unit - someone want to take a cheap shot at that too?:-)

Edited March 9, 2021 by Plasmod3

[sir sanders zingmore]

7 hours ago, Plasmod3 said:

I do like this article from Stereophile... no doubt some here will think they are just a bunch of fools with no idea what they are talking about lol. but note the comments section as well - a good laugh there! I can't help those ppl and god knows they dont believe in audio mags:-) & of course some will feel Michael Fremer is an idiot.....not sure on what basis  or platform but yet yes those ppl do exist here! Not surprised.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/analog-corner-307-hifiction-x-quisite-st-ac-power-ps-audio

 

"cables do make a difference, even power cords," quoted DougM

Submitted by Jack L on March 2, 2021 - 12:44pm

HI

Bingo !

Whoever cable nayers should go to have their ears tested.

So, IMO, what are their excuses:-

(1) sour grapes : can't afford to own quality cables.

(2) ignorance:-
(a) believe in the myth of "everything existing must be measurable."
(b) bank on blind tests (A/B & A/B/X) without knowing blind tests
when not executed properly so often yield null result.

(a) The current limited measurement technology fails to measure a lot of
audios related to what our ear actually hear. They measured the
wrong thing.

(b) I read a paper on the problem of blind tests, to which I agree.
So often blind tests ended up with no conclusion. Why? Using the
wrong protocols.
Most most blind tests are carried out without the tested candidates
FIRST getting familiar with the sonic signatures of the test
equipment to be used, room acoustics there, etc.
The tests are carried out ASSUMING the test candidates already fully
familiar with the test venue conditions. This will make any such
tests invalid. Why?

Simple analogy of the problem: a new born baby once born to this
world never knows anything else not even their parents. It takes
time for the new-born baby to set up a module of its parents in its
brain in order to recognize the faces & voices of their parents. But
nobody else yet.

This human nature issues also apply to the test candidates who
are strangers to the new test venue conditions. How can they give
valid test results when totally "blind" to the new test environment
to them !!! ???

Yes, power cords sound different though not as obvious & substantial
as signal cables.

So I design/build audio & power cables using only 99.99% pure silver conductors for my rigs & for my audio friends with discerned ears. Otherwise, they would wreck my band accounts to finance those cable
vendors assuming pure silver cables being available in the market.

Listening is believing

Jack L

Quite an outburst from Jack L over at stereophile. I hope he’s ok

[Plasmod3]

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Quite an outburst from Jack L over at stereophile. I hope he’s ok

Oh I think it is clear he and Fremer both aren't ok about how some carry on the way they do. Quite an interesting read there. 

[sir sanders zingmore]

22 minutes ago, Plasmod3 said:

Oh I think it is clear he and Fremer both aren't ok about how some carry on the way they do. Quite an interesting read there. 

 

very interesting read indeed. Tells us quite a lot about the authors

[Ittaku]

13 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

very interesting read indeed. Tells us quite a lot about the authors

I must be missing something. I don't see anything different in tone or content than what is normally on Stereophile. Perhaps that's what you're referring to?

[sir sanders zingmore]

Just now, Ittaku said:

I must be missing something. I don't see anything different in tone or content than what is normally on Stereophile. Perhaps that's what you're referring to?

 

Perhaps you're right. I rarely read stereophile these days (although I do confess that I sometimes look at the pictures) 

[Ittaku]

21 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Perhaps you're right. I rarely read stereophile these days (although I do confess that I sometimes look at the pictures) 

The internet medium, allowing comment feedback, and the rise of the alleged science based reviews that spend their entire time trying to debunk pretty much everything subjective about audio which defines Stereophile, has been very hard for them. They've taken to having regular articles to repeatedly insist measurements don't matter, and the comments section is the same diatribe back and forth (which is amusing given they do so many measurements). I'm surprised they still allow comments. The Absolute Sound abandoned their comments section for the same reason, though they eschew measurements entirely and the divide is even greater there. I believe it's only a matter of time before Stereophile abandon the comments section.

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

The internet medium, allowing comment feedback, and the rise of the alleged science based reviews that spend their entire time trying to debunk pretty much everything subjective about audio which defines Stereophile, has been very hard for them. They've taken to having regular articles to repeatedly insist measurements don't matter, and the comments section is the same diatribe back and forth (which is amusing given they do so many measurements). I'm surprised they still allow comments. The Absolute Sound abandoned their comments section for the same reason, though they eschew measurements entirely and the divide is even greater there. I believe it's only a matter of time before Stereophile abandon the comments section.

 

I agree. They portray themselves as a serious review publication and like their writing style or not, they are one of the few places that still do measurements. But from the little I've seen, their comments section can get quite unhinged. It does them no favours, they should either moderate it properly or shut it down.

[Steffen]

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

I agree. They portray themselves as a serious review publication and like their writing style or not, they are one of the few places that still do measurements. But from the little I've seen, their comments section can get quite unhinged. It does them no favours, they should either moderate it properly or shut it down.

 

Yes, they still do measurements. When those completely contradict the delirious subjective “review” it doesn’t seem to matter, because people tend to pay attention to either the musings or the measurements, rarely both.

 

And I think an unhinged comments section suits and benefits them. Their reputation is long gone, they’ve sold out, and there is a lot of money in clicks these days. Nothing generates clicks like controversy.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Steffen
gremmr