HiFi reviews in general, and 6moons in particular

[Steffen]

9 minutes ago, Marc said:

You would be the first to Report throw away, unconstructive and (generalised) misleading posts here on StereoNET @sir sanders zingmore. Yet, here it is.

I think that life experience leads most of us to that same (SSZ’s) conclusion. Like Baggini put it, “cynicism proves its worth as one of our best defences against spin and manipulation”.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/10/in-praise-of-cynicism

[MLXXX]

8 hours ago, Marc said:

But if we can help explain what something does, how it might work for you, or reveal something not obvious in the name of the product or its marketing material that makes you want to investigate that product further, than our job is done.

That sounds fine and useful.   

 

A trap that some reviewers fall into is a feeling that they must opine subjectively on the sound quality of every piece of equipment they review. For example, the number of solid state amplifiers that are labelled as "bright" or "bass heavy", or with other similar descriptions about their frequency response, I find  astonishing, particularly in the absence of any corroborating measurements quantifying the extent of the alleged departure from a flat response. 

 

It should be the exception that an amplifier departs audibly from a flat frequency response. That is probably why we rarely see graphs of the frequency response of amplifiers these days in review magazines. There would be no point. 

[Marc]

The subjectiveness of audio and the fact that every single one of us not only hears differently, but has different likes and dislikes will mean discussions and debates like this will keep going longer than any of us are alive. Truth is, if it weren't for that point alone, StereoNET's forums probably wouldn't even exist or be as popular as they are. We are all passionate about music, audio and hi-fi, that's why we are here of course. *and of course, some of us get too passionate about it at times*

 

I imagine the wine enthusiast forums are far worse?

 

We published the A-S3200 review some 14 days ago. In that time (and predominantly in the first 48 hours) it's been shared 667 times on social media, and read 21,000+ times. In there somewhere, I am confident some got the info they needed to help arm them with either an informed purchase (with risk), or piqued enough interest to go and audition it (COVID-permitting) and make their mind up - particularly if they were in the market for a $10K integrated amplifier and had not considered the Yammy.

 

"Therein lies the rub – reviews can be very useful – but only up to a point. No hi-fi reviewer can legislate for the individual circumstances, preferences, music tastes, hardware choices and system synergies of the reader. That’s why it’s necessary to take such reviews in context; they’re not tablets of wisdom, speaking some universal truth that the reader hadn’t previously gleaned. Instead, they’re – hopefully – informed and open-minded, factual accounts of what the reviewer heard in their particular system, with those ancillaries, at that time, with their tastes. In other words, we should think of them as a useful ‘way in’ to a debate about buying a product, rather than some sort of holy writ from on high."

 

At the end of the day we're all here and into this for enjoyment. Let's not forget that.

[MLXXX]

14 minutes ago, Marc said:

We published the A-S3200 review some 14 days ago. In that time (and predominantly in the first 48 hours) it's been shared 667 times on social media, and read 21,000+ times. In there somewhere, I am confident some got the info they needed to help arm them with either an informed purchase (with risk), or piqued enough interest to go and audition it (COVID-permitting) and make their mind up - particularly if they were in the market for a $10K integrated amplifier and had not considered the Yammy.

To my mind that's a very good example of the subjective style of review, with several detailed paragraphs devoted to the reviewer's impressions. One sentence reads,  "The key traits of this amp then are its big, broad soundstage, allied to a glass-clear midband and a muscular, sinewy bass.".  That is fine for people who want to read detailed subjective impressions for information purposes to rely on to help their purchase decision (or merely perhaps, on a narrow cynical view, to enjoy as an uplifting or engaging poetic flow of language!)  but obviously goes well beyond the job you described earlier in this thread of helping explain what something does, how it might work for you, or revealing something not obvious in the name of the product or its marketing material that makes you want to investigate that product further.

 

On a continuum we have at one end a common 1970s style of hi-fi magazine review of a power amplifier replete with graphs of frequency response, and channel separation, and a few words about subjective sound quality; and at the other end of the continuum a common 3rd millennium style of review with detailed paragraphs about subjective sound quality and no published measurements at all.  Of course there are contrary examples. In the 1970s some reviews were entirely subjective.

[rantan]

3 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

all that guarantees is that will be the one that paid the most in advertising revenue   

WOW. ...and I thought I was cynical !

 

While reviews are not to be taken as gospel, they (collectively ) do have some value and it is up to the individual to make his /her own purchasing decisions, based on a range of factors.

I reckon we may be over thinking the entire review thing and in the end nobody is compelled to read them.

Edited August 14, 2020 by rantan

[sir sanders zingmore]

the smileys mean I was joking

[Yamaha_man]

3 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

the smileys mean I was joking

Sure.

[Ooogh]

Personally I think this is an extremely complex situation.
 

Remaining in business as a hifi reviewer / magazine must be close to impossible in modern times.  You can’t give magazines away these days, if News Agents didn’t sell Tattslotto and general $2 shop merchandise they would all shut down. Getting paid for online content is not something I even pretend to understand.  My favourite saying, “Integrity don’t buy no burgers”, is unfortunately more true today than it ever was.  Selling your soul is common in most modern workplaces in my experience. Unemployment has it’s upside but living under a bridge can get cold in winter.

 

Just as those who follow professional reviewers begin to understand their preferences / biases over time I think long term members here also do with the subjective reviews / opinions proffered by members in these forums. I know some members opinions align more closely with mine. Does that mean they are smarter, understand sound better than other members? Are they less swayed by their own ingrained belief systems? No, they just agree with me so are obviously right!  Almost none of them run independent, scientific measurements on the equipment on which they offer an opinion, doesn’t mean I don’t see value in their opinion.
 

I always remember one magazine responding to the exact question, “why don’t I read negative reviews in your magazine?” Their response was that they weeded out unworthy equipment prior to review and did not publish a review.  Sounds fair to me. As others have eluded to we need to read between the lines.  What is not said, or the diplomatic wording given to short comings is as important as the positive bits.  Saying someone is staggeringly good looking is often is to disguise the fact they are in fact a complete ar#ehole.

 

As with all things, if you believe it is rubbish, if it is driven by payola , if it is flawed at best and corrupt at worst then don’t buy or read it. At least with 6 Moons you haven’t blown $15 on a magazine just to find it full of adds and crap reviews. Will I buy a $5k amplifier because Alfonzo Montifiori says it rocks on 6 Moons?  I hope I am smarter than that. If I am unable to actually hear it myself I will do my due diligence from many sources. Obviously also corrupted by my dependence on Google as a search engine.  Some people will say it is great, some will say it is terrible and I will make an educated guess.

[keinesorge]

On 11/08/2020 at 6:40 AM, Ittaku said:

All ad-revenue website reviews are worthless if you read the conclusions as they always say the same things. You could rip out a conclusion of a $1000 pair of speakers and apply it to a $10,000 pair and not tell them apart.

 

However, they're not completely useless. You have to learn how to read them by looking for the hints.

 

"Not the final word in bass" - means pissweak bass

"Tight punchy bass that compensates for lack of lower extension - means no lower extension

"Soft non-fatiguing midrange" - means lacking any midrange detail

"Razor sharp imaging"- means fatiguing midrange or top end

"Dark tonal balance" - means too much bass/not enough treble

"Light tonal balance" - too much treble

and so on.

 

Don't even bother reading the superlatives, they're the superfluous part of the review.

 Adding to the list

"a steaming pile of... " - means mqa. 

[Mutatis Mutandis]

On 13/08/2020 at 1:12 PM, Gabehcuod said:

You ever think they just pluck words out of their glossary
https://www.stereophile.com/content/sounds-audio-glossary-glossary
 

Just a random one from there "chalky: Describes a texturing of sound that is finer than grainy but coarser than dry. See "texture.""
Also: "coarse: A large-grained texturing of reproduced sound; very gritty. The continuum of reproduced sound seems to be comprised of large particles. See "texture.""

My favourite is:

click A small, sharp impulse that sounds like the word "click."

[Wimbo]

I used to love reading TAS back in the 80's. Subjective/Objective and Harry. Brilliant.

[Ittaku]

If you want to read a glowing review that ultimately isn't, and see how hidden the conclusion is that they actually don't like the product, this one's a perfect example:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-reference-6se-line-preamplifier

Excuses galore but ultimately the reviewer didn't like the product. It's a good example of how hard they have to try to hide that fact.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Ittaku

[MLXXX]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

Excuses galore but ultimately the reviewer didn't like the product. It's a good example of how hard they have to try to hide that fact.

I couldn't really discern much of an opinion expressed at all!  And perhaps that's the clue. An essay about audiophile happiness that hardly says anything about the sound quality of the product being reviewed is not a ringing endorsement. (By the way, why preamplifiers with their very modest power requirements should require 15A or 20A power cables is a mystery to me.)

 

The words I quote below didn't strike me as encouraging. Why would something already broken in (burned in?) need time to "settle"?  Is there a viscous fluid in the exotic capacitors that takes days to reach equilibrium? :-

 

Gordon suggested I give the already–broken-in REF 6SE two days to settle in before beginning serious listening. The unexpected treble edge I heard when I snuck in an immediate "I can't resist" listen confirmed the wisdom of his counsel.

[Ittaku]

2 hours ago, MLXXX said:

I couldn't really discern much of an opinion expressed at all!  And perhaps that's the clue. An essay about audiophile happiness that hardly says anything about the sound quality of the product being reviewed is not a ringing endorsement. (By the way, why preamplifiers with their very modest power requirements should require 15A or 20A power cables is a mystery to me.)

 

The words I quote below didn't strike me as encouraging. Why would something already broken in (burned in?) need time to "settle"?  Is there a viscous fluid in the exotic capacitors that takes days to reach equilibrium? :-

 

Gordon suggested I give the already–broken-in REF 6SE two days to settle in before beginning serious listening. The unexpected treble edge I heard when I snuck in an immediate "I can't resist" listen confirmed the wisdom of his counsel.

I don't disagree. When I heard the 6SE had come out I was excited because I found the 6 veiled and recessed compared to my existing preamp. But then when I heard it had an almost 50% markup, and all they did was replace some caps and wiring, I lost all interest in even auditioning it. This review was... revealing. I worry about ARC's direction now if this is where their priorities lie.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Ittaku

[LHC]

This is an exemplary audiophile review of the LS50 Meta - it combines subjective listening and objective measurements to corroborate the two. Note that it uses the spinorama approach to speaker measurements as promoted by Sean Olive's Harman-based standard. Best of all it explains in easy to understand english for the layperson. 

 

 https://thenextweb.com/plugged/2020/12/17/review-kefs-ls50-meta-upgrades-an-audiophile-fave-to-near-perfection/

 

Maybe not everyone would agree with its over the top praises or some specific technical points, but there is no argument this review approach is a good one. 

[Hatzi]

Hi all,

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction for HIFI reviews, I started with whathifi (am I pretty much just reading advertisements?), John Darko (I saw him make a coffee and I lost all faith in humanity let alone taking his advice), an english audiophile and some others. 6moons just looks like hard work, is it just me or does that website somehow smell musty when you open it? 

 

Im pretty new to all this and my learning curve has been pretty steep but nonetheless really interesting, appreciate if anyone can recommend any reviewer they trust.

 

Cheers

Hatzi

 

 

[mrbugeyes]

I prefer the UK HIFI mags that give a brief technical report with their review such as HIFI WORLD and HIFI NEWS AND RECORD REVIEWS.  The U.S.A. mags are to dear for me.  Cheers

[KRSDarwin]

Howdy Hatzi,

 

I read just about all of the UK ones and the US “The Absolute Sound” but generally find that I obtain the most enjoyment and get the best information from Australian Hi-Fi (esp Greg Borrowman and Stephen Dawson) (Australian Hi-Fi was recently sold to the UK listed Future Group) and Stereophile (esp Herb Reichert, Michael Fremer and John Atkinson).  I particularly enjoy Herb Reichert. 

If I had to pick just one it would be Stereophile.  
 

I have bought a number of components based on their reviews and have yet to be disappointed. 

[thejt]

52 minutes ago, KRSDarwin said:

 I particularly enjoy Herb Reichert. 

 

TEAM HERB!

 

Herb is just a beautiful writer and incredibly enthusiastic.  Easily my favourite writer on all things hi-fi. 

[Pim]

https://www.dailyaudiophile.com/

Is a good place to start. I don't 'trust' any of them. I more or less try to read between the lines and the more reviews you read, the better an understanding of a piece of equipment you get.

[Hatzi]

Thanks for the advice guys, its very much appreciated. Will check it all out.

[sir sanders zingmore]

13 hours ago, Hatzi said:

Hi all,

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction for HIFI reviews, I started with whathifi (am I pretty much just reading advertisements?), John Darko (I saw him make a coffee and I lost all faith in humanity let alone taking his advice), an english audiophile and some others. 6moons just looks like hard work, is it just me or does that website somehow smell musty when you open it? 

 

Im pretty new to all this and my learning curve has been pretty steep but nonetheless really interesting, appreciate if anyone can recommend any reviewer they trust.

 

Cheers

Hatzi

 

 

 

I think the trick is to read widely at first and find someone who you enjoy reading. There is everything out there,  from hipster darko to pure measurements-are-all-you-need.

You do need to bear in mind that some reviewers may be biased due to financial conflicts and some may simply have different tastes to yours.

Ultimately the best advice I can give is actually to ignore reviewers altogether and listen to components yourself  

[RoHo]

With music reviewers I find that they have to have similar taste to you otherwise the whole thing is a bust.  Hifi reviews have parallels.  If the reviewers taste in speakers is big and brassy but what floats your boat is more cool and detailed then his recommendation "aint worth more than a hill o' beans"  ( as said by Col. Potter in MASH).  

[Gandra]

In the past, I relied heavily on reviews and got burnt more often than not. 

These days, I try to listen to equipment before buying and that has resulted in a much better strike rate. 

However, there are certain pieces of equipment that you just can't audition, cartridges come to mind, and this is where prior experience and reviews, either professional or by someone you trust, are useful. 

Experience, as in knowing the general sound of a particular brand, is very valuable. 

For example, many mc cartridges may be somewhat bright, and if this is a quality you're not after or the rest of your system will accentuate, you may have a problem. 

In conclusion, this hobby is not for lazy people; doing your homework, learning about various types of equipment and most importantly listening, listening and listening to various systems is the most important thing to do. 

Good luck on your journey! 

[Wimbo]

The man who taught me was Harry Pearson, Editor off the Absolute Sound back in the 70/80's. Unfortunately he's gone and also focused mainly on Hi End audio.

Steve Guttenberg and Herby Reichert are entertaining. Never liked Australian HiFi, everything was amazingly good.