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YPAO to limit external amp volume?


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Hello,

 

I am just about to add a March Audio P502 to my Yamaha AVR,  feeding the front L and R channels.   

The intent of this was so I can safely run high volume levels whilst in two channel listening mode.

All other surround speakers are fed from the AVR.

 

My query is: If I run YPAO function to balance my speaker level outputs, will the AVR pull down the pre out voltages to the P502 attempting to balance all speakers - so then when I switch to two channel listening I will not be able to utilise the full power of the P502 due to the reductions in pre out voltage made during YPAO calculations?

 

Hopefully that has been explained in a coherent way.

 

Any help appreciated. 

I understand the need for pre out voltage matching between components, but this AVR is all I have for a pre amp atm

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Good question.

 

I cannot say for certain, but I do not think so and could never find this info in the manual. I have used external power amps with my Yamaha AVR and in those instances have not run out of "volume".

 

How I understand it, is that YPAO adjust volumes etc. for a balanced sound at the seating position - in the process it will also measure and tell if speakers are small or large (sometimes incorrectly), but it does not limit volume. Max volume is set elsewhere on the AVR.

 

The best way to use the AVR as a pre for 2 channel listening is to use the 2 channel stereo setting and in the "Direct" mode.

Edited by Jventer
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2 hours ago, Jventer said:

Good question.

 

I cannot say for certain, but I do not think so and could never find this info in the manual. I have used external power amps with my Yamaha AVR and in those instances have not run out of "volume".

 

How I understand it, is that YPAO adjust volumes etc. for a balanced sound at the seating position - in the process it will also measure and tell if speakers are small or large (sometimes incorrectly), but it does not limit volume. Max volume is set elsewhere on the AVR.

 

The best way to use the AVR as a pre for 2 channel listening is to use the 2 channel stereo setting and in the "Direct" mode.

 

If L and R are fed 350W and centre is only getting 100W from AVR it would have to reduce pre out voltage - thats how it would "balance" the sound - you can see that when you got back into settings and look at your speaker levels.

So if it does that, as an example - at max volume setting of AVR will that not equal a less than max pre out voltage?

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18 minutes ago, Trevm said:

 

If L and R are fed 350W and centre is only getting 100W from AVR it would have to reduce pre out voltage - thats how it would "balance" the sound - you can see that when you got back into settings and look at your speaker levels.

So if it does that, as an example - at max volume setting of AVR will that not equal a less than max pre out voltage?

 

No, this isn't really how it works. Speakers won't use all of the watts unless they drive the amplifier to full power and that would be rare and would probably result in hearing damage after not too long. It's not no power, or full power, it is variable power depending on how much attenuation\volume you apply.

 

If you refer to the specs of you amplifier...
https://www.marchaudio.net.au/product-page/p502-500-watt-stereo-power-amplifier

...the important part id the voltage gain which is 26dB. This means that it's output voltage is 26 times the input expressed as dB.

 

I think you should just run YPAO and see what happens and it may actually have to apply more gain to your front L and R if the voltage gain is higher in the AVR for it's internal amplifiers.

Edited by Satanica
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7 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

No, this isn't really how it works. Speakers won't use all of the watts unless they drive the amplifier to full power and that would be rare and would probably result in hearing damage after not too long. It's not no power, or full power, it is variable power depending on how much attenuation\volume you apply.

 

If you refer to the specs of you amplifier...
https://www.marchaudio.net.au/product-page/p502-500-watt-stereo-power-amplifier

...the important part id the voltage gain which is 26dB. This means that it's output voltage is 26 times the input expressed as dB.

 

I think you should just run YPAO and see what happens and it may actually have to apply more gain to your front L and R if the voltage gain is higher in the AVR for it's internal amplifiers.

Ok thank you for that.  I think I understand.

So your basically saying my query is a non issue?

Could you please explain how it keeps a balanced volume across all speakers throughout the volume setting range on the AVR?

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12 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

...the important part id the voltage gain which is 26dB. This means that it's output voltage is 26 times the input expressed as dB.

 

 

I suggest there's a more easily understandable way of describing voltage gain, S.

 

What the spec actually says is ... the amp has a voltage gain which - when expressed in dB - is 26dB.

 

In normal 'X times ' terms ... this equates to a voltage gain of 20 times.

 

Andy

 

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53 minutes ago, Trevm said:

Ok thank you for that.  I think I understand.

So your basically saying my query is a non issue?

Could you please explain how it keeps a balanced volume across all speakers throughout the volume setting range on the AVR?

 

It's a non issue if you balance gains. Of course you could use an SPL meter to do this but why bother if you're going to use YPAO when one of it's primary functions is to balance the output of channels. Even with amps of identical gain sometimes the centre channel and surround channels will require more or less gain because they are not equivalent to the left and right speakers and are usually positioned closer or further away.

 

YPAO will do more than just balance the output of speakers like calculate and set delays, calculate and set EQ and perform overall volume calibration so that 0dB volume setting will equate to about 75dB.

Edited by Satanica
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38 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

It's a non issue if you balance gains. Of course you could use an SPL meter to do this but why bother if you're going to use YPAO when one of it's primary functions is to balance the output of channels. Even with amps of identical gain sometimes the centre channel and surround channels will require more or less gain because they are not equivalent to the left and right speakers and are usually positioned closer or further away.

 

YPAO will do more than just balance the output of speakers like calculate and set delays, calculate and set EQ and perform overall volume calibration so that 0dB volume setting will equate to about 75dB.

Ok I understand all that.

My original query is -  if YPAO is balancing my speaker via gain settings, when I go to 2 channel listen will I be utilising the full potential of the P502 or will the output on the pre out be reduced 

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Here is an interesting and relevant discussion.https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/155487-max-volume-on-yamaha-rxv2600/

So, 

what people are saying is that YPAO will set it at 0 on the volume control when it measure 75dB (some say 85dB) at the seating position.

You then have a few options if this is not loud enough for you.

You can manually adjust the parameters per speaker, you can dial the volume up to +16.5 or both.

 

You have not asked, but at 500W per channel I will get a lot more worried about other issues, e.g. not damaging hearing and not damaging speakers. 

 

 

 

Edited by Jventer
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1 hour ago, Trevm said:

Ok I understand all that.

My original query is -  if YPAO is balancing my speaker via gain settings, when I go to 2 channel listen will I be utilising the full potential of the P502 or will the output on the pre out be reduced 

 

Maybe or maybe not depending on the calibration, I think. But I presume if you were to feed your speakers with 350 watts for anything other than short bursts they will sustain damage. Your speakers should have a maximum power rating specified. 

 

I think you should just do the calibration and see what happens. If there is a problem after that then take action to deal with it. 

Edited by Satanica
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Wrap up.

P502 all hooked up and YPAO run.

AVR able to be set to max volume setting and the P502 doesnt go into clip protection so it may not be receiving full voltage from the AVR. 

Sound stays clean at very high volume but my VAF Gravitas Sub is hitting clip protection mode well before speakers are getting full power, so obviously no point in driving them any harder.

Sonically the improvement of the P502 over the AVR is astounding.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Trevm said:

 

Sonically the improvement of the P502 over the AVR is astounding.

😁 👍

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Quote

 

The intent of this was so I can safely run high volume levels whilst in two channel listening mode.

 

My 1st thought was the circuitry of the yammie . Does it have an analogue passthrough ? If it does then YPAO would  not come into it because thats the same as bass management incorporation so you would have to convert to lpcm with a ADC  on the analogue line . The other factor is whether "direct" switches the circuitry to avoid the ADC or not .

Ide just use a different input for your 2ch source and use pure direct[ has it like my cxa5100?] to bypass the ADC -if feasible?

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19 hours ago, cwt said:

My 1st thought was the circuitry of the yammie . Does it have an analogue passthrough ? If it does then YPAO would  not come into it because thats the same as bass management incorporation so you would have to convert to lpcm with a ADC  on the analogue line . The other factor is whether "direct" switches the circuitry to avoid the ADC or not .

Ide just use a different input for your 2ch source and use pure direct[ has it like my cxa5100?] to bypass the ADC -if feasible?

@cwt your thoughts were exactly what were mine. Unfortunately I could not find any literature re what "Direct" actually does. I suspect that whatever you do it would still go through some conversion process.

However

The OP is trying to squeeze more power from 500w per channel amps! Far out, with that many amps too much power will either damage his hearing or his speakers!

Anyway, the OP, apart from appearing not happy re the pre, is OK with the sound he is getting.

We all can move on.

Edited by Jventer
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