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How to remove all noise in digital setup?


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Trying to remove some of the high pitch buzz and static coming from my streamer pc. I have an art pb 4x4 which cleans up a fair bit. But I noticed most of the noise is coming from the ethernet plug, and usb plug. I think I should also get a dc blocker

Any recommendations?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, anewmission said:

Trying to remove some of the high pitch buzz and static coming from my streamer pc. I have an art pb 4x4 which cleans up a fair bit. But I noticed most of the noise is coming from the ethernet plug, and usb plug. I think I should also get a dc blocker

Any recommendations?

 

 

 

There is some good advice for isolation of USB style interfaces here :  https://www.digikey.co.nz/en/articles/techniques-and-solutions-for-usb-power-and-data-isolation

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4 hours ago, Eggcup the Dafter said:

Difficult to diagnose that remotely. It wouldn't be fan noise from the PC would it?

I'm using ethernet over power line. So that is more than likely the problem. Even before turning on the pc, if the usb is going to the dac I can hear a high pitch buzz just from the ethernet cable. When I unplug it. The buzz goes away. Doesn't matter if the pc is on or not.

When I go to stream music I hear about 1 second of static but once music starts playing. All buzzing disappears.. very strange

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Sounds to me like you have a problem in your DAC. A decent DAC should isolate any buzzing on the cables feeding it signal.

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Good old fashioned Toslink Optical connections don't transmit buzz.

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2 hours ago, anewmission said:

I'm using ethernet over power line. So that is more than likely the problem.

 

Absolutely, it is!  FFS - power lines and ethernet together ... are an oxymoron!  :o

 

Andy

 

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11 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Absolutely, it is!  FFS - power lines and ethernet together ... are an oxymoron!  :o

 

Andy

 

So I would actually be better using WiFi?

Unfortunately no easy way of getting an ethernet plug to the listening room

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You have two issues. FIrstly, if the power line adaptor is causing buzz at the computer, that is a mains or earth leak, or if the adaptors do power over ethernet (PoE) it's doing it very badly indeed.
Secondly,  it sounds as if something is happening that shouldn't when streaming is started. I suspect the power line adaptor is doing that as well. 
 

At the very east, one or both of the power line adaptors are badly designed or faulty. I would investigate using wifi in the first instance and if you have problems with that, replace the power line adaptors. I don't think treating the computer or DAC is the way to go here.
 

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1 hour ago, anewmission said:

 

Unfortunately no easy way of getting an ethernet plug to the listening room

 

 

Yes it can be difficult, sometimes, to retrofit.  :(

 

1 hour ago, anewmission said:

 

So I would actually be better using WiFi?

 

 

I would say ... YES!  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, anewmission said:

So I would actually be better using WiFi?

 

Despite all the stories,  a decent Wifi connection works extremely well.  I have stopped using nearly all my ethernet cabling, as it just isn't necessary.     Even an old 2.4GHz wifi connection has plenty of bandwidth for music,   it will even do Netflix :)     

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10 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Despite all the stories,  a decent Wifi connection works extremely well.  I have stopped using nearly all my ethernet cabling, as it just isn't necessary.     Even an old 2.4GHz wifi connection has plenty of bandwidth for music,   it will even do Netflix :)     

You have a point there. I wired my whole house up with Cat 6A SFTP and as it turns out, I use very little of it. As someone who used to install phone and alarm systems I used to live by the motto 'wireless is useless' because of all the issues we had with it, but those days are long gone. WIFI is very stable nowadays.

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33 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Despite all the stories,  a decent Wifi connection works extremely well.  I have stopped using nearly all my ethernet cabling, as it just isn't necessary.     Even an old 2.4GHz wifi connection has plenty of bandwidth for music,   it will even do Netflix :)     

Generally yes, but there are two situations where Wifi becomes an issue. In some buildings the walls are simply too thick, and unless you are prepared to use multiple boosters and hope for the best, or run cables at least part of the way, it won't work.


The other situation arises in some unit blocks, where everyone and their pet goldfish has their own network set up. This shouldn't stop you getting something but I've known it happen. You can havc a combination of the two issues as well, where 5GHz doesn't work well and 2.4 is congested.

In those situations ethernet over the mains can make sense. Linn even used to recommend it. However, I really don't like what it's doing to equipment here.

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1 hour ago, Eggcup the Dafter said:

Generally yes, but there are two situations where Wifi becomes an issue. In some buildings the walls are simply too thick, and unless you are prepared to use multiple boosters and hope for the best, or run cables at least part of the way, it won't work.


The other situation arises in some unit blocks, where everyone and their pet goldfish has their own network set up. This shouldn't stop you getting something but I've known it happen. You can havc a combination of the two issues as well, where 5GHz doesn't work well and 2.4 is congested.

In those situations ethernet over the mains can make sense. Linn even used to recommend it. However, I really don't like what it's doing to equipment here.

 

 

Yes, it all boils down to whether you a decent Wifi connection or not - just as I said.   The trouble is, people in a typical domestic situation  in their own house, in the suburbs,  are still being told by people on line, that Wifi is  no good and they must use cables.  I have heard of ethernet over the mains working well, but I suspect it will fail more often in the same situations you mention that have Wifi problems, simply because of the way multi-dwellings are supplied their power.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

Yes, it all boils down to whether you a decent Wifi connection or not - just as I said.   The trouble is, people in a typical domestic situation  in their own house, in the suburbs,  are still being told by people on line, that Wifi is  no good and they must use cables.  I have heard of ethernet over the mains working well, but I suspect it will fail more often in the same situations you mention that have Wifi problems, simply because of the way multi-dwellings are supplied their power.

 

 

Yes in part to that last statement - and they'll also fail if you have dedicated mains wiring to your hifi and are trying to reach it from another line. It's not the dwelling type but the way they are wired, though. I remember something else about them causing problems to radio enthusiasts in the same building or nearby (they turn the mains wiring into a large source of RFI). That may also interfere with hifi equipment of course...

Edited by Eggcup the Dafter
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7 hours ago, Eggcup the Dafter said:

Yes in part to that last statement - and they'll also fail if you have dedicated mains wiring to your hifi and are trying to reach it from another line. It's not the dwelling type but the way they are wired, though. I remember something else about them causing problems to radio enthusiasts in the same building or nearby (they turn the mains wiring into a large source of RFI). That may also interfere with hifi equipment of course...

And as the only source not passing through the art 4x4 rfi filter that makes complete sense

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Just to add my 2c: today I finally sorted out the buzzing and popping I've been hearing via USB DAC(s) connected to my PC for the past 12 months by ditching the ethernet-over-power adapter I had been using and switching to Wifi.

 

I had tried lots of USB filters and purifiers and tried isolating the USB data and power legs with an expensive split USB cable and feeding the DAC power from a battery or linear supply, but the noise was coming through the USB data link whatever I tried. I almost bought a replacement motherboard figuring it must be the culprit.

 

But today, having unplugged the EoP adapter and adding a USB Wifi adapter to the PC, I have a completely black background from my USB DAC at last.

 

@anewmission I hope your fix is as simple!

 

Jason

 

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Like I said, just try toslink optical...

Edited by Ittaku
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I have used several methods for ethernet as in:

  • Ethernet over Power
  • Cat 5
  • WiFi

But, nowadays I am just on WiFi - so much easier and less hassles.

 

@anewmission I agree that your cheapest and easiest possible solutions will be to just use WiFi and or optical connections. If that works you may even be in front as you may be able to sell your ethernet over power connectors  :).

 

Edited by Jventer
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 05/03/2021 at 7:02 AM, Ittaku said:

Like I said, just try toslink optical...

Unfortunately the pc doesn't have optical. I have used optical before but it sounds thinner, to me anyway. I think hdmi even sounds better than optical.

I bought a wifi card, going to install that today.

 

What I'd really like to try is i2s. Instead of usb. All in due time I guess

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5 minutes ago, anewmission said:

Unfortunately the pc doesn't have optical. I have used optical before but it sounds thinner, to me anyway. I think hdmi even sounds better than optical.

I bought a wifi card, going to install that today.

 

What I'd really like to try is i2s. Instead of usb. All in due time I guess

Okay. A usb to spdif converter is an option as they tend to act as noise filters. My personal experience with optical is very different to everyone that poopoos it; it sounds pretty much identical to coaxial in both my expensive and cheap DACs. Obviously your mileage may vary. I2S is a tricky communication medium not really designed to be used external and isn't a guaranteed improvement because of that.

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On 13/03/2021 at 12:14 PM, Ittaku said:

Okay. A usb to spdif converter is an option as they tend to act as noise filters. My personal experience with optical is very different to everyone that poopoos it; it sounds pretty much identical to coaxial in both my expensive and cheap DACs. Obviously your mileage may vary. I2S is a tricky communication medium not really designed to be used external and isn't a guaranteed improvement because of that.

It seems like more dacs and streamer/cd players are using i2s more often now. Ps audio, topping, gustard.

I need to read more about whether any of the rpi models do i2s straight from the board.

Hdmi cables can be alot nicer than optical coax or usb.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 05/03/2021 at 9:29 AM, Jventer said:

I have used several methods for ethernet as in:

  • Ethernet over Power
  • Cat 5
  • WiFi

But, nowadays I am just on WiFi - so much easier and less hassles.

 

@anewmission I agree that your cheapest and easiest possible solutions will be to just use WiFi and or optical connections. If that works you may even be in front as you may be able to sell your ethernet over power connectors  :).

 

They are just average ones that came with foxtel boxes 15+ years ago

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On 02/03/2021 at 1:30 PM, aussievintage said:

 

 

Yes, it all boils down to whether you a decent Wifi connection or not - just as I said.   The trouble is, people in a typical domestic situation  in their own house, in the suburbs,  are still being told by people on line, that Wifi is  no good and they must use cables.  I have heard of ethernet over the mains working well, but I suspect it will fail more often in the same situations you mention that have Wifi problems, simply because of the way multi-dwellings are supplied their power.

 

 

This is where it gets interesting. If I play a vinyl. There is no static whatsoever. Just a slight low humm from my power amp, which is fine.

The signal path tt-phono stage-pre amp-power amp.

Now if I use my pc, with no ethernet or wifi connected I still get horrible static. So I did some testing, turning off the pc/streamer will remove the static, turning off the dac will also remove the static. Now turning off the pre amp does not remove the static? How does that work?? It's still sending signal through the pre amp when it's off? 

Signal path for the dac/streamer

Diy pc streamer (snakeoil os) - topping d50 dac via usb (tried a few different data cables) I am running the power to the dac from a portable phone charger as it sounds much better than a smps wall charger. - pre amp - power amp

 

All iec and power plugs are plugged into a rmi and efi filter and ferrite rings around almost every cable.

 

Now I installed another streaming os onto a thin client pc. Even more static.

I have another dac that is firewire but I do not currently have a firewire card that will fit my low profile chassis so that's Abit hard to test.

 

Replacing the psu on the pc/streamer didn't make a difference. I have tried 2 or 3 different ones

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What happens if you run from the headphone output from your PC (assuming you have one) into the preamp? Do you still hear the static?

 

What file format are you playing?

 

Has your phone charger to the DAC turned noisy? I can't believe that that particular hack would work well. I'm guessing the cause is related to your DAC, regardless of its power source.

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On 26/03/2021 at 1:46 PM, Eggcup the Dafter said:

What happens if you run from the headphone output from your PC (assuming you have one) into the preamp? Do you still hear the static?

 

What file format are you playing?

 

Has your phone charger to the DAC turned noisy? I can't believe that that particular hack would work well. I'm guessing the cause is related to your DAC, regardless of its power source.

Time for a new dac then. I just bought a nice slim power amp, might get a nice slim pre with a dac built in

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