Yamaha PC2002M Legendary or am I just a just a noob? I mean I can hear alright.

[mrjadez]

Been running my NS1000M matched pairs on a Sansui G6000 pretty mint condition and serviced, for a while now. I found them to be very musical if you like esp for classics etc. but it always had that Sansui G series warmth if you like? The speakers just never opened enough (well now I know). 

 

Found a MINT PC2002M in Japan, been eyeing it for a while. Was a toss between this A-2000 and a B2X I also found but condition looked risky for gear this age. Finally pulled the plug on the PC2002M. It was the best packing I have ever seen, ever, like seriously imported so many over the years but best packing even beats brand new shipped units. The unit is MINT, not a scratch, no mounting signs and seller mentions he grabbed a few from a studio and had them well tested and inspected via in-house tech - this is a big audio shop in Japan. Anyways ended up paying a fortune that still bugs me. $1500 with shipping and our lovely tax. 

 

The unit is so mint I can't believe its used for 1980s gear, Def didn't see the road being a Pro amp, I reckon. Like seriously what magic maintenance are they doing at this shop if restoring these and fooled me? I would love to send a couple their way. 

 

Now I am still waiting on my new DAC but I had a old one lying around I have been using still, a cheap china one DAC01A from like ages ago. Used unbalanced RCA cables as thats all this DAC is capable of. Waiting on the mogami Golds for balanced XLR setup later with new DAC. 

 

Played some usuals to test - WOW! what a difference even at the lowest levels.  It is just so open and airyyyy! So perhaps huge watts thrown at these speakers or the headroom really does make a difference? Oh and stereo separation for a pro amp also phenomenal. Yamaha made some serious kit here. Thought I will share my impressions for anyone else looking or still on the fence. 

 

Keen to hear what other owners think or if upgraded to something better later, what made you give away your 2002, 2002Ms. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by mrjadez

[Bunno77]

Recently heard one myself and have been looking for one or it's variants. Sounds like you got a bargain considering the condition. 

 

I've been doing research and it would be a good idea to get it serviced by a good tech if it hasn't already in Japan. Offset, bias, check cap measurements etc. There is a few YouTube vids on servicing these Yamies. 

 

Not surprised by your enjoyment. Many don't ever realise the potential of their speakers. 

 

Enjoy

[mrjadez]

Cheers mate, they mentioned fully inspected and tested by professional Japanese tech including offsets etc. but they did not mention re-cap perhaps because it still is within its limits? not sure. For now happy to leave it as is. I don't see myself selling this, its a 1982 legendary beauty. These meters look really cool, didn't think a pro amp would look this cool tbh but I guess the bulbs must be new.  Also not a single scratch on glass, no fade on inside inserts in meters. It is v v good condition for sure but they did take top notch $1100 AUD minus shipping and tax.

 

Oh best part, no fans and hence I see why it made its way to home hifi. 

 

Pull the plug if you find one for sure, I did a bit of research between this and PC2200 (1976) that you can find from usa etc. For highs and vocals it might have a slight edge but for overall genres and better bass control  - ppl blindly nodded to these 2002ms sounding better. Also that relay protection on these is already installed.  

 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by mrjadez

[Bunno77]

Good stuff. You have possibly one of the best techs in Perth that doesn't just blindly recap or replace parts that aren't needed. Would be who I'd use if I had issues in the future.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn_Rlj62-7t2IY7Ggf3wVdw

Ahh interesting re the sound. Think there was another too that was same internally as as mentioned minus VU but probably wrong. Thought they were the same really, just VU's, speaker protection but good to hear.

Please post a pic mate, would be great to see. I am pretty jealous and will keep an eye out for one.

Here is a vid from another guy on the 2200. Pretty interesting

 

[NordicNorm]

I’m a big fan of pro amps from the late 70’s and early 80’s. They really do deliver a lot of power and musicality for their prices.

 

Pair them up with a decent tubed pre-amp and you have an amazing combo!

[mrjadez]

9 hours ago, Bunno77 said:

Good stuff. You have possibly one of the best techs in Perth that doesn't just blindly recap or replace parts that aren't needed. Would be who I'd use if I had issues in the future.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn_Rlj62-7t2IY7Ggf3wVdw

Ahh interesting re the sound. Think there was another too that was same internally as as mentioned minus VU but probably wrong. Thought they were the same really, just VU's, speaker protection but good to hear.

Please post a pic mate, would be great to see. I am pretty jealous and will keep an eye out for one.

Here is a vid from another guy on the 2200. Pretty interesting

 

The tech was actually their own tech in Japan part of their shop business.
 

I liked dealing with them over this sale so much so that I am planning a second buy of these to bridge them as long as it’s from the same studio that kept them so clean and well looked after before selling them on. 

 

9 hours ago, NordicNorm said:

I’m a big fan of pro amps from the late 70’s and early 80’s. They really do deliver a lot of power and musicality for their prices.

 

Pair them up with a decent tubed pre-amp and you have an amazing combo!

Well I have been thinking about adding a pre amp stage with yaqin likes but tube does add that colour. With new DAC and the focus on transparency and low THD metrics and these amp sounding so beautifully transparent yet not bright neither tiring, I am divided for now. 

[mkaramazov]

On 25/02/2021 at 5:27 AM, NordicNorm said:

I’m a big fan of pro amps from the late 70’s and early 80’s. They really do deliver a lot of power and musicality for their prices.

 

Pair them up with a decent tubed pre-amp and you have an amazing combo!

 

I am doing precisely that - tube pre at the front of a vintage Fostex pro power amp.  Such a great combo. 

 

To the OP - we need some pics of your PC2002M! 

[mrjadez]

Interesting. For those using Tube pres, seems like you are happy with that bit of distortion as the bit of colouring is musical? I’ve had some China tube amp in past rolled with Russian tubes but I finally moved back to SS. 
 

I bought a Gustard x16 after audio science review on it and hoping it’s better than my onboard PC Mobo DAC, consider the two linear stages and chips being used. Plug fully balanced XLR with yammie pc2002m made sense. I should have bought from shenjen audio instead of aliexpress but it’s DHL and hopefully a genuine piece ha! 

 

unbalanced tube press plenty of China choices, balanced ones looking at $1k plus. 
 

Also interesting is some PA gear like art mic tube pres but that 48v phantom gain switch has me worried so I will buy something cheap and roll with some better tubes to try in unbalanced. 
 

I found the ns1000ms do require some EQ magic to bring best in them, increasing bass, sorted in PC at digital stage using many of open source EQ platforms. 
 

some pics of it attached, already in my cheap rack for now so apologies not too much to see clear. 

 

[Al.M]

I have the Yamaha P2201 amp the same without the VU meters and it is a good match with the NS1000. If you read the NS1000 archive posts here there are lots of comments about getting even better results from a number of other amps like 50W KT88 or other tube amps. 

 

I have a chinese cloned 200w Goldmund solid state power that is much better as are others like, Parasound A21 200w solid state, KT88 50 tube, Halcro and other Class D amps, Krell KSA50s 50w solid state, Musical Fidelity etc. There would be a number of modern or newer amps that can really make the speaker shine and shimmer with detail and excellent voice and imaging such as Electrocompaniet, Pass Labs, other Krell etc.

 

As good as the P2201 amp match is it’s a rather old fashioned amp sound (smooth) and the more modern solid state and tube alternatives give it a more dynamic and better voiced sound with a whole lot more of extra hyper detail that the NS1000 is capable of.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Al.M

[mrjadez]

30 minutes ago, Al.M said:

I have the Yamaha P2201 amp the same without the VU meters and it is a good match with the NS1000. If you read the NS1000 archive posts here there are lots of comments about getting even better results from a number of other amps like 50W KT88 or other tube amps. 

 

I have a chinese cloned 200w Goldmund solid state power that is much better as are others like, Parasound A21 200w solid state, KT88 50 tube, Class D amps, Krell KSA50s 50w solid state, Musical Fidelity etc. There would be a number of modern or newer amps that can really make the speaker shine and shimmer with detail and excellent voice and imaging such as Electrocompaniet, Pass Labs, other Krell etc.

 

As good as the P2201 amp match is it’s a rather old fashioned amp sound (smooth) and the more modern solid state and tube alternatives give it a more dynamic and better voiced sound with a whole lot more of extra hyper detail that the NS1000 is capable of.

Thanks for so many suggestions to eventually try. 
 

I have heard about the KT88 combo on these so might pull plug on a 100B eventually. I do run them loud at times and that’s where the SS big watts headroom kicks in. I ran them with a Sansui G6000 which was warm and dynamic but even that conservative 65watts power at times wasn’t good enough for some modern drum and bass genre types. It was great for others and totally get how dynamic at mid highs will shine on tubes. 
 

I might get a tube pre for time being to get the tube color in and see how it compares to the Gustard x16 going to balanced XLR back of pc2002 at 4v minimum with a really good dynamic range as measured by Audio Science review. 
 

I am going by least distortion, best dynamic range measured scientifically with a mix of great d/a modern components that are affordable after which it’s just audiophile tax and stay as natural and transparent to recording as possible esp outputting MQA tidal etc. things - one can hope so it might be bit of journey to get there. 
 

The tubes absolutely do shine with that colour that many like even me for some genres and I’ve seen it perform on an old China tube amp but won’t be as good as the Yaqin 100B design. 
 

You must be one of lucky fortunate to have found a good Goldmund clone. I’ve seen a lot of terrible reviews throughout aliexpress and other forums. 

 

I looked at a few power amps including the accuphase Hifi and pro without fans that I would love to afford ha! 
 

this was just in very good condition to pass and that natural transparent sound at 240w pc is amazing, as long as your digital EQ side is dialed in a bit I found for these ns1000ms. 
 

Will certainly keep eye on some of your suggestions if mint or great condition inspected ones show up.

 

BTW the 2201 without meters and Pc2002 and pc2002m circuits are v different and so is the production era. Bass is a big difference plus mids/highs to some ears too. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by mrjadez

[Al.M]

8 minutes ago, mrjadez said:

Will certainly keep eye on some of your suggestions

Yes a good tube preamp is needed as the Ns1000 can sound cold and technical yet too sharp and detailed if not matched well. A used $500-2000 Supratek, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, or even Stereo Coffee LDR non tube preamp would do wonders. Chamila in Gumtree Perth Audio tech was making the Goldmund clones and you can enquire on current prices around $2kish.

[mrjadez]

Great! Thanks for the tips along the journey. 
 

Couldnt find Chamilas ads or work anymore but seen a load of them clones on sale on this forum in my google search. 
 

I have to run everything balanced now ha! And as you are aware bad components and design in balanced can actually make it worst than standard RCA 2ishVolts. So good engineering is key. 
 

Speaking of engineering the Gustard engineers are achieving some great circuitory magic

[Pops110]

Not balanced but amazing sounding for the price and available new locally. Mingda MC - 7R. 
Might be worth a look, I used one with great success with a Musical Fidelity A5cr power amp.

 

http://undergroundsoundaudio.com/Shop/index.php/;focus=HSTPTP_cm4all_com_widgets_Shop_7128726&path=?subAction=showProduct&categoryId=35843&productId=142446#HSTPTP_cm4all_com_widgets_Shop_7128726

[mrjadez]

46 minutes ago, Pops110 said:

Not balanced but amazing sounding for the price and available new locally. Mingda MC - 7R. 
Might be worth a look, I used one with great success with a Musical Fidelity A5cr power amp.

 

http://undergroundsoundaudio.com/Shop/index.php/;focus=HSTPTP_cm4all_com_widgets_Shop_7128726&path=?subAction=showProduct&categoryId=35843&productId=142446#HSTPTP_cm4all_com_widgets_Shop_7128726

does look nice. Big gain on the output stage. The pc2002s are sensitive to even 0.7v and this has max 22v output!! 
 

I have been eyeing this in the unbalanced world with psvane tubes. 
 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/274348037411

[mkaramazov]

22 hours ago, mrjadez said:

. For those using Tube pres, seems like you are happy with that bit of distortion as the bit of colouring is musical?

 

Absolutely .

 

Lovely pics btw 

[Pops110]

2 hours ago, mrjadez said:

does look nice. Big gain on the output stage. The pc2002s are sensitive to even 0.7v and this has max 22v output!! 
 

I have been eyeing this in the unbalanced world with psvane tubes. 
 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/274348037411

Looks like an interesting piece of kit. Never heard any but I think there have been a few owners of Oldchen amps on SNA.

[mrjadez]

4 minutes ago, Pops110 said:

Looks like an interesting piece of kit. Never heard any but I think there have been a few owners of Oldchen amps on SNA.

Cool yep not much reviews to go by on this new kit. 
 

the Yaqin integrated top ones have moved to Psvanes too. Nothing in preamp world by Yaqin in new era atm. 
 

in balanced setup been eyeing this Tube Pre. Circuit looks honest and simple too. 
 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HiFi-Vacuum-Tube-Preamp-Class-A-Single-ended-Balanced-XLR-Stereo-Audio-Preamp-/254012527611?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

[Al.M]

20 hours ago, mrjadez said:

Couldnt find Chamilas ads or work anymore

He’s constantly advertising repairs, Hypex amps, Noratel toroids etc but not under that name, Hamersley location. I havnt noticed any Goldmund clones advertised on this forum.

 

Edit: If he has any demo versions around and others he may allow you to try one out and decide later. It’s unlikely he have any demos as he made a run of these several years ago and they all sold out but he should be able to source and price a build for you. You will need a good preamp to go with it.

 

The eBay preamp looks ok except you don’t know how it sounds. Personally I would look out for a used Audio Research LS7 or similar for around $700 or Schiit Freya tube preamp new $1300 or less used and others and the resale and reputation will be much better.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Al.M

[pete_mac]

11 minutes ago, Al.M said:

He’s constantly advertising repairs, Hypex amps, Noratel toroids etc but not under that name, Hamersley location. I havnt noticed any Goldmund clones advertised on this forum.

I’m pretty sure he sells on eBay under the username “rfwaves2” - he current has a variety of gear including Hypex amps and Noratel transformers as you’ve noted above. 

[mrjadez]

1 hour ago, pete_mac said:

I’m pretty sure he sells on eBay under the username “rfwaves2” - he current has a variety of gear including Hypex amps and Noratel transformers as you’ve noted above. 

 

Thanks guys I had a look at this current ads and also saw a bunch of spare transformers. This opens a whole new rabbit hole for me now as then I started looking at all the PCB schematics and designs plus Goldmund schematics on various forums. Geesh! I really do not have time for another project ha! but I am now making a parts list and will eventually get to DIY route on this myself. Background is engineering hence the obsession with circuit designs and components used plus pathway and signal distortion. Might not be the most musical way to look at things but certainly customisable the DIY route and some great learning on the journey.  

 

For now I will see if to go DIY on tubes as well or just pull plug on a decent balanced finished one. 

 

Great to hear from all your collective exp over the years.

 

This PC2002 was sort of a pull trigger to have something now type of buy and I am sure better is out there, but I do respect these golden era designs by Yamaha when they were actually trying. Something that has lasted 40 years in such a good form says a lot about the owner but the design as well and that's part of what I am celebrating here from a design point of view. 

 

 

[mrjadez]

3 hours ago, Al.M said:

Edit: If he has any demo versions around and others he may allow you to try one out and decide later. It’s unlikely he have any demos as he made a run of these several years ago and they all sold out but he should be able to source and price a build for you. You will need a good preamp to go with it.

 

The eBay preamp looks ok except you don’t know how it sounds. Personally I would look out for a used Audio Research LS7 or similar for around $700 or Schiit Freya tube preamp new $1300 or less used and others and the resale and reputation will be much better.

Great tip thanks. Balanced one does have some excellent reviews and is based on Audio Research circuit. I will check others out.

 

I will see if I don't get anytime to do something myself to hit him up for a build cost. 

 

EDIT: Audio Research LS7 found on sale on ebay rn but $3000 imported with japan or usa voltages on them. Japanese seem to be charging most these days for everything in used market. Schiit should be around the price range you have given and IS BALANCED! thanks for the suggestion, now to see if a 220V shows up otherwise here comes yet another transformer ha!

 

EDIT2: oh MY! the distortion on some of these tube amps is significant, balanced or not we are looking at 0.1-0.2 range! but yep they will add that tube color if pure circuit like top end ones are. Also impressive is that Schiit Saga is measuring amazing  in distortion and clean and the Freya you mentioned will be same. Engineering points to Shitt but resale value obviously is going to LS7s but geesh $3000 already. The only reason I bought this pc2002m was because it was in a very very good condition and locally inspected by the jap techo who sees a ton of high end gear. Decisions decisions...

Edited March 3, 2021 by mrjadez

[Vinyl33]

Yamaha's engineers offered 2 different sets of outputs in their PC2002 and the M2 both Amps...@ 240W in Stereo Configuration during the same years.

In particular I would like to focus on the Output Transistors, in the Yamaha PC2002, both use 6 x parallel TO3 output  transistors per channel, namely (Sanken designed) 3 x 2SA1117 for the P -Channel and 3 x 2SC2608 for the N-Channel.

In the Yamaha M2 they use the same configuration but use (Toshiba  designed) 3 x 2SA1051 for the P-Channel and 3 x 2SC2461 for the N- Channel

Yamaha expounded the virtues of the Toshiba high transition Frequency Transistors here which weren't available in the PC2002.

 

[royfj]

Both my P2200 and 2002 as well as the M50 and MX-1 are all fantastic sounding with the NS-1000Ms. Each amp though is an unique experience in itself.

[georgehifi]

 

Yamaha P2200

 

Great amps, made for the PA/Recording industry.

Big linear supply and bi-polar output, good current delivery.

Just need a little more Class-A bias on them for audiophile use, to get them running sweeter in the highs, around 50-60c heatsink temp after 1hr of being at idle, is a good figure to aim for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

They also have a pair of very very good L & R top of the line Alps pots as passive pre "input volume controls" called the Black Beauty, even better than the very well regarded Alps Blue Velvet that many use in the hifi high end industry.  No need for active preamps here if you have the volume you need using these magic Alps pots.

 

Cheers George

 

 

 

 

 

Rather than just one wiper they have multiple finger wipers, so they don't lose solid contact with the resistive track and get noisy. 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by georgehifi

[royfj]

I don't use pre amp with the P2200 or 2002 but I find the volume control of the 2200 to be better than the 2002.