Mutec MC-3+USB Owners Discussion Thread

[MattyW]

Ok so I've been extremely impressed with my Mutec MC-3+ USB since I got it. Since it gave such a large improvement I've been wondering whether an external  master clock would give an even larger improvement? 

 

I've been looking for solutions under the $3,000 mark and this kind of rules out Mutec own REF10 OCXO master clock. 

 

The Musical Paradise Cesium Atomic Clock looks rather nice and being black it can easily be hidden away out of sight under my entertainment unit. 

 

I'd love to get the experiences of others trying external master clocks with the MC3+USB as I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the expense. My Abbas Audio DAC does not have a dedicated BNC input for word clock syncing rather pulling timing from the PCM data in the coax connection.

[mitchlim]

Hello,

I have two MC3+ USB and have been connecting with  Ref 10 for almost two years, lately I upgraded to Ref 10 SE120, and also for fun I purchased an ocxo clock made in China (around A$400), I do not have a good hearing, however, by adding a master clock, it does improve the sound quality and in fact quite noticeable. Since English is not my mother language, I use the numbers to represent how significant of the sound change by adding one of the following master clocks :

 

Let say 0 to 10, 0 = makes no difference, 5 = difference is significant, 10 = very significant

 

Chinese OCXO = 3

Mutec Ref 10 = 5

Mutec Ref 10 SE 120 = 7

 

 

 

[MattyW]

1 hour ago, mitchlim said:

Hello,

I have two MC3+ USB and have been connecting with  Ref 10 for almost two years, lately I upgraded to Ref 10 SE120, and also for fun I purchased an ocxo clock made in China (around A$400), I do not have a good hearing, however, by adding a master clock, it does improve the sound quality and in fact quite noticeable. Since English is not my mother language, I use the numbers to represent how significant of the sound change by adding one of the following master clocks :

 

Let say 0 to 10, 0 = makes no difference, 5 = difference is significant, 10 = very significant

 

Chinese OCXO = 3

Mutec Ref 10 = 5

Mutec Ref 10 SE 120 = 7

 

 

 

That's exactly the sort of information I'm after.  So even the cheap Chinese OCXO was an improvement? 

 

Does your Chinese clock generate a square wave or sine wave? Mutec seems to believe square wave is better for a signal lock.

 

So I'm definitely going to get an external clock though the question is now which one.

 

Does anyone have experience using an atomic clock or other clocks under the cost of the REF10?

Edited February 21, 2021 by MattyW

[Guest rmpfyf]

16 minutes ago, MattyW said:

That's exactly the sort of information I'm after.  So even the cheap Chinese OCXO was an improvement? 

 

Does your Chinese clock generate a square wave or sine wave? Mutec seems to believe square wave is better for a signal lock.

 

So I'm definitely going to get an external clock though the question is now which one.

 

Does anyone have experience using an atomic clock or other clocks under the cost of the REF10?

 

Sure. I can send you pics of what I had built if you like.

 

Also, turn that bad boy simultaneous.

[Snoopy8]

Maybe you can get some ideas for a clock from this thread

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/59419-master-clock-for-your-etherregen/

 

People have been experimenting with cheap Chinese clocks, with some success.

[MattyW]

I'm thinking a Gustard C16  might not be a bad option. Pretty close to pulling the trigger on it.

 

Ordered on of these copy Nordost Odin Word Clock cables in preparation.  Yes I know they're fake but a lot of people are very happy with these particular copy cables, beating out some seriously expensive cables in head to heads. While I'm not too keen on using their analog cables I've no issue trying the USB or clock cables. The price is right.

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by MattyW

[tripitaka]

16 minutes ago, MattyW said:

I'm thinking a Gustard C16  might not be a bad option. Pretty close to pulling the trigger on it.

 

Ordered on of these copy Nordost Odin Word Clock cables in preparation.  Yes I know they're fake but a lot of people are very happy with these particular copy cables, beating out some seriously expense cables in head to heads. While I'm not too keen on using their analog cables I've no issue trying the USB or clock cables. The price is right.

 

That C16 is cheaper from Shenzhenaudio, isn't it? I've bought gear from them before, pretty reliable.

[MattyW]

14 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

That C16 is cheaper from Shenzhenaudio, isn't it? I've bought gear from them before, pretty reliable.

Maybe,  though I'm really only comfortable with eBay and Aliexpress. 

[tripitaka]

3 minutes ago, MattyW said:

Maybe,  though I'm really only comfortable with eBay and Aliexpress. 

AliExpress is same price as Shenzhenaudio

[MattyW]

Ok, I have it on order. I'm going through eBay as I have some cash in my PayPal account and it doesn't have to touch my bank accounts....  If you know what I mean 

[mitchlim]

1 hour ago, MattyW said:

That's exactly the sort of information I'm after.  So even the cheap Chinese OCXO was an improvement? 

 

Does your Chinese clock generate a square wave or sine wave? Mutec seems to believe square wave is better for a signal lock.

 

So I'm definitely going to get an external clock though the question is now which one.

 

Does anyone have experience using an atomic clock or other clocks under the cost of the REF10?

Does your Chinese clock generate a square wave or sine wave? Mutec seems to believe square wave is better for a signal lock. ---- It can do both .... 

 

[mitchlim]

One point to note .. I bought the Chinses OCXO, it worked but dead on the next day. Sent it back for service, I have been told the reason - Australia is 240v and the clock power supply is for 220v. I do not know that's true or not, but the serviced one now is still working after one month (7x24 on)

[MattyW]

I've the Gustard C16 ordered.going to be interesting to see what difference this makes. Based on the thread @Snoopy8 sent through I believe it should give a very nice improvement. Hard to believe that things can improve further but I'm always happy to try.

 

The Gustard C16 is nice and nondescript so I can easily hide it under the entertainment unit. In theory it should better the cheaper units being a proper 75ohm. This will be a fun experiment.

[muon*]

Was over Matt's a bit earlier today and had a listen to his system briefly and It sound very nice, those vid's he's posted really don't do it justice.

 

So any improvement from a better clock should be sweet

[MattyW]

Should be interesting.  There's no reviews I could find on the Gustard C16, though from past experience they make a decent product so it should be quite nice 

[tripitaka]

8 minutes ago, MattyW said:

Should be interesting.  There's no reviews I could find on the Gustard C16, though from past experience they make a decent product so it should be quite nice 

Can I ask what you've tried from gustard in the past, Matty, I think they are mainly known for their DACs?

[MattyW]

At one point owned a Gustard DAC-X10 and a U10 and these fed a Yaqin MC10T amp + B&W DM-16 speakers. Not bad little units though from there I moved to a Gieseler Gross + Kraftwerk LPS which was a notable improvement again...  My system has come a long way (for the better) since then. Particularly since I built my own speakers and then built my system backwards from that to get the best from them.

 

The Gustard C16 OCXO ticks a few boxes in terms of square wave,  built in LPS, small and easy to hide etc. Apart from the sound difference I don't want it to be noticed in my system and it's quite bland looking which is great. No LCD displays lit up to draw attention to it.

Edited February 22, 2021 by MattyW

[frednork]

8 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Maybe you can get some ideas for a clock from this thread

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/59419-master-clock-for-your-etherregen/

 

People have been experimenting with cheap Chinese clocks, with some success.

I ordered one of these with custom 75 ohm outputs

Edited February 21, 2021 by frednork

[MattyW]

5 hours ago, muon* said:

Was over Matt's a bit earlier today and had a listen to his system briefly and It sound very nice, those vid's he's posted really don't do it justice.

 

So any improvement from a better clock should be sweet

 

Thanks Ian. I can't really imagine better than I'm already getting but I'm hoping for even further improvement.  Heck, even with no further changes my system will improve as my new Aleph-M amp burns in.

 

EDIT: Oh crap! The Gustard C16 seems to be 50ohm according to this?

 

 

Gustard C16 master clock generator technology features:

• The C16 is a 10MHz high performance low phase noise clock generator;
• The C16’s built-in crystal oscillator is a new SC-cut OCXO that has been customized from the top manufacturers in the crystal industry to ensure stable quality.;
• A true low jitter design with low near-end phase noise.Its measured performance is more than two orders of magnitude better than the traditional SPXO femtosecond crystal oscillator.;
• With six BNC interface outputs (3+3), it is divided into two output modes “Vivid and Gentle output modes” (Vivid recommended): direct output and isolated output.
• The output waveform of the C16 is three or six square wave outputs, which is better for back-end device compatibility than sine wave output.;
• During the development process, we optimized the subjective and objective audio performance of the C16 specifically for the Gustard U16 and future audio digital source devices.;
• The C16 is not the most extreme performance design without considering cost. Instead, it uses a cost-effective OCXO to achieve a good balance between performance and price. The C16 has better subjective and objective audio performance than the traditional SPXO femtosecond crystal oscillator, and the price is also relatively friendly.

 

Parameter:
Output frequency: 10MHz
Frequency accuracy: <±300ppb
Frequency stability: <±50ppb
Output amplitude: =7dBm @ 50Rz
Output waveform: square wave
Output impedance: 50O
Near-end phase noise @1Hz(TYP): -100dBc
Short Stable (Allen Variance) (TYP): 2E-12

Other parameters:
• Output amplitude: 7dBm @50 Ohm
• AC power supply: AC 115V/230V 50/60Hz
• Machine power consumption: <15W
• Body size: width 220mm* height 50mm* depth 170mm (excluding protruding parts)
• Packing size: width 285mm* height 85mm* depth 270mm
• Weight: 2.5Kg (including packaging)

 

Steps:
1.The front panel’s vivid and gentle buttons have the function of enabling or turning off the clock output of the same name on the rear panel.
2.Each time the power is turned on for the first fifteen minutes, the double LED flashes to indicate warm-up. At the same time, all clock output ports on the rear panel have no output.
3.After 15 minutes of power on, the dual LEDs are always on and all outputs are automatically turned on.
4. During the fifteen-minute warm-up period, you can ignore the warm-up to achieve direct output by pressing the vivid or gentle button on the front panel.

 

EDIT 2: Anyway I ordered the 50 to 75 N type converter + 2x BNC adapters. It'll work just fine. It'll be out of sight under the entertainment unit anyway so appearance doesn't matter.

Edited February 21, 2021 by MattyW

[tripitaka]

That's a relief Matty!

I think we all know that feeling when ordering online, after forgetting to confirm some feature or another

[MattyW]

On 22/02/2021 at 7:11 AM, tripitaka said:

That's a relief Matty!

I think we all know that feeling when ordering online, after forgetting to confirm some feature or another

 

Yeah, I had that aweful sinking feeling.... Not as bad as the rollercoaster of emotions after a favourite amp fails or the needle is snapped on a favourite cartridge but still. 

 

Kind of excited to see what this does in my system as it's already incredibly lifelike once you turn the volume up a bit.... And the best low volume listening I've ever experienced. Even if the 50 to 75 ohm adapter doesn't arrive first I'll get in plugged in seeing as that other linked thread still showed improvements with the impedance mismatch.   

 

I may order the native 75 ohm DAPU unit yet to compare. Actually I'm almost certain I will. Too cheap not to try. 

 

EDIT: Actually I've just requested the seller cancel my Gustard C16 order. I can't see how using a number of converters (2x N type to BNC & 50 to 75ohm convertor) connectors wouldn't degrade the signal. Have ordered the  75ohm DAPU unit from eBay. I daresay I'll need to source a quality linear power supply for this at some point as well. I've little doubt that the OCXO clocks are excellent being made for 24/7 operation in mission critical applications. Thanks for the link to that thread @Snoopy8

 

Ordered the UpTown Audio UltraLPS-1.2..... Not really much cheaper than the Gustard at this point though at least it's a known level of performance.

 

Besides..... Nice to have extra cash in the bank. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by MattyW

[MrBurns84]

@MattyW so which one did you end up getting if i may ask?

[MattyW]

I have ordered the Chinese made DAPU unit as discussed on Audiophilstyle, a separate 12VDC LPS PSU (the UpTone Audio LPS-1.2 doesn't supply enough power sometimes according to details in that thread) and a 20mm Tungsten Cube which I'll epoxy to the top of the clock inside the case to help with resonances (it will also further stabilize the clocks temerature). I'll be applying Dynamat Extreme to the inside top and side of the case also for added vibration damping. Going to be a fun project 

 

I did initially order the Gustard C16, and the impedance adapter.... And the UpTone Audio LPS-1.2..... Have put in requests to cancel the C16 and LLPS-1.2. Hopefully that will occur or I'll end up with stuff I no longer want/need. Then again, would be interesting to compare performance of a C16 with the DAPU based units.

Edited February 22, 2021 by MattyW

[MrBurns84]

1 hour ago, MattyW said:

I have ordered the Chinese made DAPU unit as discussed on Audiophilstyle, a separate 16VDC LPS PSU (the UpTone Audio LPS-1.2 doesn't supply enough power sometimes according to details in that thread) and a 20mm Tungsten Cube which I'll epoxy to the top of the clock inside the case to help with resonances. I'll be applying Dynamat Extreme to the inside top and side of the case also for added vibration damping. Going to be a fun project 

Cool! I've always wondered if an external 10Mhz clock would make a diff.  Keep us updated! 

[MattyW]

1 hour ago, MrBurns84 said:

Cool! I've always wondered if an external 10Mhz clock would make a diff.  Keep us updated! 

 

Will do. I imagine if it does make a difference it would purely be in fine/micro detail, though that's what can make things sound so natural anyway so I'm hoping for the best. It'll either work or it won't. Still, for the cost of a single decent interconnect I don't think it's a big gamble 

 

I've set up and account I'll put $100 per fortnight into. In a number of years I may be able to upgrade to the Mutec REF10 SE120 

Edited February 22, 2021 by MattyW