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I would say you are pushing the limits of safety using 220v products in Oz.  If our electricity providers kept to the nominal standard of 230v - there wouldn't be an issue.  But they don't - they basi

Australia is officially 230v not 240v (different in some states I think, QLD is one?) but anyway it doesn't matter.  It should be fine, standards for electrical goods in AUD and most the world need to

totally agree.  While you are at it, can you get everyone to drive on the same side of the road 😊

1 hour ago, Thelastjedi said:

Is 220v products in particular amplifiers safe to use in Australia?

 

I would say you are pushing the limits of safety using 220v products in Oz.  If our electricity providers kept to the nominal standard of 230v - there wouldn't be an issue.  But they don't - they basically kept using the old 240v infrastructure by making their "standard" 230v +10% / -3%.  Which means they are not prosecuted if the mains they provide is between 223v and 253v.

 

Your mains could easily be, say, 246v - which is 26v above the amp's voltage spec.

 

1 hour ago, Thelastjedi said:

Is there a major difference in sound quality between 220v and 240v? 

 

If you mean ... is there a major difference in sound quality between and amp which is 'designed for' 220v (ie. whose power transformer's primary winding is specced for 220v) and an amp which is 'designed for' 240v (ie. whose power transformer's primary winding is specced for 240v) - the answer is NO!  But what happens when you feed 246v to a power amp whose power transformer's primary winding is specced for 220v ... is that the voltages on the secondary side of the power transformer rise, accordingly.

 

This may do damage to the amplifier circuit - depending on how it has been engineered.

 

Andy

 

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Australia is officially 230v not 240v (different in some states I think, QLD is one?) but anyway it doesn't matter.  It should be fine, standards for electrical goods in AUD and most the world need to take voltages from 253 V to 216.2 V "AS60038" that's your fridge, your phone charger and your microwave etc.   Distribution voltage is a variable thing and always is and always will be.  Voltage drops during transmission dependent on your distance from your local substation and its output voltage of course.  Its just 110 to 123v stuff that will give you major grief (smoke).  I would say that the amp you are looking at would be designed to take 240v 230v 216v or even 232.758659v and the components will work within the ranges the transformer will step down too also.  SQ wise, zero I would say with slight loss in gain maybe. If it has a voltage regulator in the circuit (more then likely) then zero.  You need to be careful with frequency not voltage in the 220v-240v range i.e. 60hz or 50hz but mainly only with ac motors.  

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Not good in the case of valve gear as the secondarily will be higher, so that means heater voltages will be higher.

Also depends with gear in general how close to tolerances are some aspect by design from the manufacturer, some use caps that have little head room, and some drive devices close to limits in the case of output devices and such, not most.... but some.

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Thankyou for the information. This will definitely help in future purchases. A friend passed up on a good deal today because the amp was 220v and was unsure if it would be safe to run. 

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If stuck with a 220vac components always use a suitable step down transformer.

 

Edit: You did see my previous post?

 

Edited by muon*
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31 minutes ago, StuDog78 said:

Australia is officially 230v not 240v 

 

It certainly is - "officially", Stuart.  But the standard all the electrical distributors work to is ... 230v with a range of +10% to -3%.  So you might easily get 250v.

 

Andy

 

3 minutes ago, muon* said:

Not good in the case of valve gear as the secondarily will be higher, so that means heater voltages will be higher.

Also depends with gear in general how close to tolerances are some aspect by design from the manufacturer, some use caps that have little head room, and some drive devices close to limits in the case of output devices and such, not most.... but some.

 

^   ^   ^  Zackly!  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

Edited by andyr
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1 minute ago, muon* said:

If stuck with a 220vac components always use a suitable step down transformer.

 

Edit: You did see my previous post?

 

Just read through it now. Why cant we all share the same voltage around the world lol that would make things much easier.

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Yes, the 230vac standard is a joke, most people get 240vac and upwards, sometimes close to 260vac. I used to get a solid 250vac here 24/7.

 

Sometimes mains are stable like they were for myself and sometimes people get wildly fluctuating levels depending on day and times.

 

We are all independent countries so think and act differently where standards are put in place, some countries have more than one voltage, the USA for instance. Just how it worked out.

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29 minutes ago, muon* said:

Yes, the 230vac standard is a joke, most people get 240vac and upwards, sometimes close to 260vac. I used to get a solid 250vac here 24/7.

 

Sometimes mains are stable like they were for myself and sometimes people get wildly fluctuating levels depending on day and times.

 

We are all independent countries so think and act differently where standards are put in place, some countries have more than one voltage, the USA for instance. Just how it worked out.

I have been meaning to buy a ups powerboard for my system but have never gone around to doing so. Ive seen there are some crazy prices from companies like isotek and ps audio that supply power conditioners and powerboards. Is there are major difference in something affordable like the one in the photo compared to the expensive isotek powerboards that cost 3x the price? 

Screenshot_20210219-184630.thumb.png.2cb360d1eec6dc64ef40e7530ccfdf15.png

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47 minutes ago, Thelastjedi said:

Just read through it now. Why cant we all share the same voltage around the world lol that would make things much easier.

 

totally agree.  While you are at it, can you get everyone to drive on the same side of the road 😊

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I didn't think mains voltage fluctuation is a problem, its just a reality, and yeah valve gear will be effected, but negatively, I wouldn't think so. If so, valve amps would be metres high at the dump as would every cathode ray tv back in the day.   TheLastJedi what amp are you looking at?    Metal Beat lol yeah everyone drives on the right side, according to them anyway 🤣.

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13 minutes ago, StuDog78 said:

I didn't think mains voltage fluctuation is a problem, its just a reality, and yeah valve gear will be effected, but negatively, I wouldn't think so. If so, valve amps would be metres high at the dump as would every cathode ray tv back in the day.   TheLastJedi what amp are you looking at?    Metal Beat lol yeah everyone drives on the right side, according to them anyway 🤣.

You don't know a lot about valve gear, it appears.

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55 minutes ago, Thelastjedi said:

I have been meaning to buy a ups powerboard for my system but have never gone around to doing so. Ive seen there are some crazy prices from companies like isotek and ps audio that supply power conditioners and powerboards. Is there are major difference in something affordable like the one in the photo compared to the expensive isotek powerboards that cost 3x the price? 

Screenshot_20210219-184630.thumb.png.2cb360d1eec6dc64ef40e7530ccfdf15.png

Wrong type of device for running over seas devices.

 

A step down transformer steps our240vac to 220vac or whatever the device is made for.

https://www.tortech.com.au/product-category/voltage-converters/

 

Even Tortech work on ours being 240vac.

 

Economy European Step Down Transformer – The Economy European Step Down transformer is designed to operate your European or Asian 220/230 Volts rated appliance in Australia on the Australian 240 Volts power mains supply.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

For you with normal stuff a regulated supply is best, and that is what the PS Audio things are, and why they cost more.

An UPS IMO is pretty useless, and surge protectors pretty useless too. Filter boards can be useful in cleaning the supply but some are not suitable for amplification (Amps) and will degrade their performance, some will not.

 

 

18 minutes ago, StuDog78 said:

Muon* So you saying voltage fluctuation in Aus destroys value amps???

When you have a higher than spec'ed heater voltage it will shorten the life span of valves.

 

Any device is designed to operate at specific voltages, when those are not as designed for then the device is not operating as intended by the designer.

Edited by muon*
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Guys, most components/devices have tolerances on their rated voltages, similar to the power, and yeah, valve heaters are included.  So a valve heater with a +/- 10% tolerance will be fine.   Most valve gear will be fine.  Designers who push the margins (not good) might cause problems.

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Just now, muon* said:

Wrong type of device for running over seas devices.

 

A step down transformer steps our240vac to 220vac or whatever the device is made for.

https://www.tortech.com.au/product-category/voltage-converters/

 

Even Tortech work on ours being 240vac.

 

Economy European Step Down Transformer – The Economy European Step Down transformer is designed to operate your European or Asian 220/230 Volts rated appliance in Australia on the Australian 240 Volts power mains supply.

 

For you with normal stuff a regulated supply is best, and that is what the PS Audion things are, and why they cost more.

An UPS IMO is pretty useless, and surge protectors pretty useless too. Filter boards can be useful in cleaning the supply but some are not suitable for amplification (Amps) and will degrade their performance, some will not.

 

 

Sorry my question wasnt towards running overseas amplifiers but what the difference is between an affordable ups powerboard and something from these companies like isotek and ps audio. 

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1 minute ago, Thelastjedi said:

Sorry my question wasnt towards running overseas amplifiers but what the difference is between an affordable ups powerboard and something from these companies like isotek and ps audio. 

I answered at the end of that previous post.

 

Edit: the font is the same as it gets changed from pasting stuff in from elsewhere.

Edited by muon*
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muon* why would you use a transformer stepping from 240vac to 220vac when the voltage in a domestic circuit could and would fluctuate within that range anyway?  The transformer you posted does not regulate voltage btw its just a toroidal (pic below), so in some cases lowering the voltage well below 220v if given a lower voltage in the supply is received?  The PS and the Isoteks do I believe regulate the volta ge but needed??? that's another question.  

Capture.JPG

Edited by StuDog78
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6 minutes ago, StuDog78 said:

muon* why would you use a transformer stepping from 240vac to 220vac when the voltage in a domestic circuit could and would fluctuate within that range anyway?  The transformer you posted does not regulate voltage btw its just a toroidal (pic below), so in some cases lowering the voltage well below 220v if given a lower voltage in the supply is received?  The PS and the Isoteks do I believe regulate the volta ge but needed??? that's another question.  

Capture.JPG

Nobody said every supply fluctuates!

 

Mine was a steady 250vac 24/7, so if I had a 220vac device it would be running 30vac above spec constantly, but some others here have reported fluctuating supplies. Also it will be better to be in a better zone of fluctuations in relationship to what you are powering than not!

 

Look at a 220vac device, if it is used here and someones mains fluctuates between 244vac and 256vac that device is going to see 24vac to 36vac above spec', now if we use that step down transformer it will be between  4vac and 16vac above spec'. It's pretty basic.

 

This subject has been discussed here numerous times, but you are new so this is new for you, so the questions are understandable.

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If you can find it there is a similar post discussing this and the conclusion was long term, theoretically and in some areas where the mains supply goes really high the risk of amp parts failure increases Edit: not necessarily immediate failure but shorter life span. However, in practice many of us are using 220v gear with not many reports of issues. So try it with some knowledge of the risk.

Edited by Al.M
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23 minutes ago, muon* said:

Look at a 220vac device, if it is used here and someones mains fluctuates between 244vac and 256vac that device is going to see 24vac to 36vac above spec', now if we use that step down transformer it will be between  4vac and 16vac above spec'. It's pretty basic.

 

This subject has been discussed here numerous times, but you are new so this is new for you, so the questions are understandable.

 

Yeah its pretty basic, why would I think devices are designed to handle that?  I am new here, I will stop commenting and just let the older members comment from now on.  Sorry for stepping on your toes mate.

Edited by StuDog78
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2 hours ago, metal beat said:

 

totally agree.  While you are at it, can you get everyone to drive on the same side of the road 😊

 

 

Xackly!  :thumb:

 

And all humans should be the same colour and follow the same religion.  :lol:

 

Andy

 

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32 minutes ago, Al.M said:

However, in practice many of us are using 220v gear with not many reports of issues.

 

Errrhhh, no - I have never (in 50 years) used 220v gear.  :P

 

Andy

 

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40 minutes ago, StuDog78 said:

 

Yeah its pretty basic, why would I think devices are designed to handle that?  I am new here, I will stop commenting and just let the older members comment from now on.  Sorry for stepping on your toes mate.

You can take it that way if you choose too.

 

I hope you change your mind and keep participating as you should, there will always be people with different opinions.

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12 minutes ago, muon* said:

You can take it that way if you choose too.

 

I hope you change your mind and keep participating as you should, there will always be people with different opinions.

 

:thumb:   :thumb:   :thumb:

 

Andy

 

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Audio Research make gear specifically for the Australian market that they don't use anywhere else in the world. 220V gear blows caps in Australia according to them and they never recommend using gear made for the European 220V market. (Most interesting was I asked specifically about the Reference 10 preamplifier and they said that none is made for the Australian market so you should never use one. The interesting part of this is that all the ARC local resellers advertise this device, so presumably they've never actually sold one here since they don't exist haha.)

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8 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Audio Research make gear specifically for the Australian market that they don't use anywhere else in the world. 220V gear blows caps in Australia according to them and they never recommend using gear made for the European 220V market.

 

The European market uses 230V +/- 10% (IEC 60038). Just saying.

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2 minutes ago, Steffen said:

 

The European market uses 230V +/- 10% (IEC 60038). Just saying.

My bad. The ARC amps say 250V on the back for what it's worth (yes I know Australian nominal has dropped to 230, but 240 is still commonplace everywhere.)

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3 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

My bad. The ARC amps say 250V on the back for what it's worth (yes I know Australian nominal has dropped to 230, but 240 is still commonplace everywhere.)

 

I used to hit 250V regularly, although that seems to have subsided, people must have complained. Still, gear for the European market needs to be fit for up to 253V.

 

Perhaps Audio Research recognises that we’re on the Southern hemisphere, and transformers need to be wound the other way around :D 

 

 

 

Edited by Steffen
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1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

Errrhhh, no - I have never (in 50 years) used 220v gear.  :P

 

Andy

 

I did once but used it with a step down from Tortech.

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There appears to be 2 different discussions taking place here. Actual versus theoretical AC mains voltages within a tolerance.

 

If you're measuring your home voltage regularly (like I do everyday through a digital display hooked up to my stepdowns) the theoretical mains crapola tolerance goes out the window as it's always idling at about the same voltage +/- 2-3% tolerance and on very rare occasions a few percent higher.

 

If you're worried about using 100v, 105v, 110v, 115v, 120v, 220v, or 230v gear in AU then stick to the local 240v stuff made here in AU. Otherwise, buy yourself a dozen or so stepdowns and variacs and enjoy the sound purchased from abroad. 😁

 

Some stories from me include a 500v power filter cap go bad because the kucklehead I bought a lovely 100v Japanese 845 amp from was using a 240v to 115v step down. Chris Kimil said to me your lucky it didn't take out the power transformer. PS Audio 300 and 600 power regenerators crap out under 244v AC mains. Absolute crap R-core Chinese 220v traffos frying my 5 volt tube rectifiers and 6.3v 9-pin minis at 244v local mains voltage because the BS traffos where over spec'd at 220v with their heater supplies already. Once the 244v came in the 5v became 6.6v and the 6.3v became 8.2v under load - WT .... Trust me I even contemplated buying 6.3v rectifiers and 7.6v or 8v 9-pin minis to solve the problem. Eric McChanson sells stepdowns with different ratios (0.76 to 0.84) for this very reason to get the final value down to 220v.

 

I've had my rant. 🤣🤣🤣

Edited by xlr8or
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1 hour ago, xlr8or said:

Eric McChanson sells stepdowns with different ratios (0.76 to 0.84) for this very reason to get the final value down to 220v.

These are gold! Eric's stepdown products not only give peace of mind, but in my humble opinion make 220v machinery sound better. Psycho-acoustics maybe?

................I don't particularly care.

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18 minutes ago, Bisguittin said:

sound better

Wouldn't be surprising by having the correct input voltage, and as a consequence the circuit operating points at the voltages as was intended by the designer. :thumb:

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11 hours ago, muon* said:

Not good in the case of valve gear

+1  on that.

I had a nice little fire compliments of my 248v outlet.

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13 hours ago, StuDog78 said:

Australia is officially 230v not 240v (different in some states I think, QLD is one?) but anyway it doesn't matter.  It should be fine, standards for electrical goods in AUD and most the world need to take voltages from 253 V to 216.2 V "AS60038" that's your fridge, your phone charger and your microwave etc.   Distribution voltage is a variable thing and always is and always will be.  Voltage drops during transmission dependent on your distance from your local substation and its output voltage of course.  Its just 110 to 123v stuff that will give you major grief (smoke).  I would say that the amp you are looking at would be designed to take 240v 230v 216v or even 232.758659v and the components will work within the ranges the transformer will step down too also.  SQ wise, zero I would say with slight loss in gain maybe. If it has a voltage regulator in the circuit (more then likely) then zero.  You need to be careful with frequency not voltage in the 220v-240v range i.e. 60hz or 50hz but mainly only with ac motors.  

Just clear up a couple of misconceptions in these statements - it is not "more than likely" that a power amp will have a voltage regulator in the main circuit - this would be very unusual. Also frequency 50/60 is not mainly an AC motor issue - it swill of course affect motors, but it is important to know that all other things being equal - a transformer designed for 60hz operation will be underspecced operating at 50hz, the core will not be sufficient and will underperform, potentially saturate.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, A J said:

Just clear up a couple of misconceptions in these statements - it is not "more than likely" that a power amp will have a voltage regulator in the main circuit - this would be very unusual.

Front end (differential pair, VAS,,) of power amp likely to run of regulated supply. Output and driver transistors mostly run off unregulated supply.

 

Agree such generic statements are a waste of time however misinformation is rife.

 

Running 220Vac amp on nominal 240Vac comes back to amp design, tolerances... Know nothing about valve electronics. Vintage yamaha CA-800 has 6800uf/50V caps running +/-50Vdc unregulated rails. With mains drift voltage often above 50V. Pic of main caps showing hills/valleys 3-4mm high, certainly not a distorted end cover, the distortion is dielectric material.

 

image.png.d59b53b3a6402f3e70d747a0f2af5bcb.png

 

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I am seeing a bit of a theme.  Yes,  marginally spec'd, pushed to the edge equipment will have problems if 220v used on 240.   This isn't just cheap stuff either,  some high end stuff is just as guilty.

 

44 minutes ago, mbz said:

Vintage yamaha CA-800 has 6800uf/50V caps running +/-50Vdc unregulated rails.

 

 

Yep right there.  Bad bad design

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If you want to run 220V equipment, the PS Audio Directstream power regenerators allow you to set any output voltage from 220-240V, but they cost more than most electronics themselves.

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1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

Yep right there.  Bad bad design

 

Actually, bad bad engineering - probably as a result of cost pressure from the company accountants. (50v caps are cheaper than 80v caps.)

 

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

If you want to run 220V equipment, the PS Audio Directstream power regenerators allow you to set any output voltage from 220-240V, but they cost more than most electronics themselves.

 

As I think the Thor unit (P10?) does.

 

And

 

Edited by andyr
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