Active Speaker Owners Comparison Discussion (Kii, D&D, SGR, Buchardt etc.)

[TerryO]

9 hours ago, MrBurns84 said:

Not exactly chump change is it? 

No they are not chump change, but if you were to add up what it would cost to purchase a pair of new high end three way speakers, two massively powered Sub woofers, Power and pre-amps to drive them plus a quality Dac and speaker cables that all works extremely well together then the asking price quickly starts to look relative.
 

cheers,

Terry

Edited February 18, 2021 by TerryO

[sella44]

Musikeletronic geithain RL901K

 

https://www.me-geithain.de/en/rl-901k2.html

https://sonicpurity.com.au/brands/me-geithain

[20hertz]

Ive spent enough time with ATC active 15s and listened to Kii enough to know the Genelec SAM monitors outperform them all easily.

[Tony B]

1 minute ago, 20hertz said:

Ive spent enough time with ATC active 15s and listened to Kii enough to know the Genelec SAM monitors outperform them all easily.

I have some mid priced Genelec's (8350a SAM) and love them, but that's a big call, more the "easily" comment.

[Ray H]

51 minutes ago, 20hertz said:

Ive spent enough time with ATC active 15s and listened to Kii enough to know the Genelec SAM monitors outperform them all easily.

Yes this statement is frankly ridiculous. ATC don’t make an active or passive 15 model, do you mean atc scm 150 ??

 

As far as I can see the Genelec Sam series tops out at the 8 inch two way. If these outperform Kii’s at around 8 or 9 k, there would be more people yelling it from the rooftops than one unknown person on SNA.

[Tony B]

These are the 3 way top line monitor and are amazing. price is each.

https://www.musiclab.com.au/genelec-8361a-3-way-coaxial-powered-studio-monitor

[Ray H]

Top of the line of “the ones” series, not Sam series.

 

And still highly dubious they are as good Kii or Dutch & Dutch which are optimised for home use, not straight out professional monitors.

[20hertz]

35 minutes ago, Ray H said:

Yes this statement is frankly ridiculous. ATC don’t make an active or passive 15 model, do you mean atc scm 150 ??

 

As far as I can see the Genelec Sam series tops out at the 8 inch two way. If these outperform Kii’s at around 8 or 9 k, there would be more people yelling it from the rooftops than one unknown person on SNA.

I run 8260s,  ten inch,  3 way, the first SAM monitors. Flat to 18 hz in my room.  15 inch ATC cant touch this!

[Ray H]

I can honestly say I’ve never heard the Genelec 8260. But I would take atc scm 100 any day of the week over the Genelec’s. For a start the genelecs would look strange in anything other than a studio.

 

The ATC upper scm range midrange and bass is well regarded as “world class” and for good reason.

 

But I digress and don’t wish to turn this into a pissing comp. enjoy your Genelec’s  

[gibbo9000]

1 hour ago, 20hertz said:

Genelec SAM monitors outperform them all easily

My intent with this thread was to drive some constructive, thoughtful and hopefully hands on comparisons that can help us all make better informed decisions for our needs.  Genelec's sound very competent - but WAF wouldn't let them through the front door here!!

All views welcome, but please give us a little more on the basis for your comments.  For example, not sure there is much doubt that some of the Genelecs peak at higher SPL than many of the home audio oriented speakers.  Some may value that.  Equally, the specs of some of these speakers in terms of frequency response don't seem to align cleanly with listening experience - eg, some find Kii's bass light for something flat to 25Hz. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by gibbo9000

[wikeeboy]

I'm reserving my judgement for the moment as i need to do more listening, but to this point i've been mega impressed with the Genelec 8351's. I am in the fortunate position to compare to Kii as well (as an owner) so should be really interesting.

 

A couple of minor points... The looks of speakers are highly subjective. Some think the Kii's look like cheap and weird looking computer monitors!! (not my comments, but 'non audiophile' friends who have been through my place). I actually think the way Darko had his Genelec 8341's set up in his house was pretty cool...

 

 

Re @gibbo9000's comment about specs not always lining up with some users experience, i'm on record for saying i definitely preferred the 8c's bottom end compared to the kii's, and when compared to my TAD E1's (my reference at the time), i didn't feel it was even close. Again, i don't know how to put it in to words, but the bass from the TAD's was more visceral, and more emotive for me. Possibly just bigger woofers moving more air. Apologies for comparing to non-actives but i know some of my comments re Kii bass (without BXT) has previously upset some. 

 

I think i've got a pretty good feel for this active space having owned many of the contenders, but ATC is a brand that has so far eluded me. I need to change that one of these days!

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by wikeeboy

[wikeeboy]

3 hours ago, Tony B said:

These are the 3 way top line monitor and are amazing. price is each.

https://www.musiclab.com.au/genelec-8361a-3-way-coaxial-powered-studio-monitor

 

Would genuinely love to do a side by side comparison of the Genelec 8361's, D&D 8c's & Kii. The Gen's and 8c's around the sameish type money, Kii's a fair bit more, but i reckon it would be a super head to head.

[Jhsg]

Following.. 

 

I have recently gone from a traditional rig to some D&D 8c's and am not looking back. The biggest thing that worried me about the transition was bass but it turns out bass is the 8c's biggest strength. I am really enjoying the simplicity and brilliant sound. I have found the parametric EQ in the speakers driven by REW isn't as good as convolutions that I had made up by Thierry at Home Audio Fidelity. His filters are fantastic and worth every cent. 

[BugPowderDust]

14 hours ago, wikeeboy said:

I'm reserving my judgement for the moment as i need to do more listening, but to this point i've been mega impressed with the Genelec 8351's. I am in the fortunate position to compare to Kii as well (as an owner) so should be really interesting.

 

A couple of minor points... The looks of speakers are highly subjective. Some think the Kii's look like cheap and weird looking computer monitors!! (not my comments, but 'non audiophile' friends who have been through my place). I actually think the way Darko had his Genelec 8341's set up in his house was pretty cool...

 

 

Re @gibbo9000's comment about specs not always lining up with some users experience, i'm on record for saying i definitely preferred the 8c's bottom end compared to the kii's, and when compared to my TAD E1's (my reference at the time), i didn't feel it was even close. Again, i don't know how to put it in to words, but the bass from the TAD's was more visceral, and more emotive for me. Possibly just bigger woofers moving more air. Apologies for comparing to non-actives but i know some of my comments re Kii bass (without BXT) has previously upset some. 

I can understand this. If you’re used to big woofers shifting air, a well executed and linear sub feels like there is still something missing a lot of the time. The excitement of the sub bass doesn’t seem the same and feels a little restrained, even if it measures well.
 

I’m used to some big bass bins in clubs from a former life, so I think that it also has some impact on the way you feel the bass. Muscle memory and all that.

 

Maybe we should just ditch the home audio stuff and buy a Funktion One or Nexo rig instead?

 

I imagine those of you who have to argue WAF to acquire hifi equipment would have some challenges getting a pair of Funktion One Resolution 5’s into the lounge room but what a glorious sight it would be.

[Jhsg]

12 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

I can understand this. If you’re used to big woofers shifting air, a well executed and linear sub feels like there is still something missing a lot of the time. The excitement of the sub bass doesn’t seem the same and feels a little restrained, even if it measures well.
 

I’m used to some big bass bins in clubs from a former life, so I think that it also has some impact on the way you feel the bass. Muscle memory and all that.

This is where I’m at. While I’m not a ‘bass head’, I’ve spent the last 20 years playing in bands and need to feel the sub (kick drum) to be satisfied when listing to music. 
 

As I described in my previous post, this was my biggest concern when going active. When I have listened to the Kii’s I’ve just never got the tickle I need in the low frequencies. Therefore one of the pieces of the equation for me when selecting active speakers was the ability to integrate a subwoofer. This is something that Dutch 8c’s do but I’ve owned them for about 3 weeks now and haven’t felt the need to even plug the sub it. The bass is not only punchy but it’s clear and precise. It’s really impressive to think I am getting more & better bass from the 8c’s than I did from my spendor d9.2, bhk250, rel t9i sub setup I was previously using. 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Jhsg

[cazzesman]

19 hours ago, 20hertz said:

Ive spent enough time with ATC active 15s and listened to Kii enough to know the Genelec SAM monitors outperform them all easily.

In your humble opinion, I presume. 

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

[BugPowderDust]

41 minutes ago, Jhsg said:

This is where I’m at. While I’m not a ‘bass head’, I’ve spent the last 20 years playing in bands and need to feel the sub (kick drum) to be satisfied when listing to music. 

Glad to hear the Dutch are working out for you.
 

I truly think my next speaker purchase will be actives but it will be on a bigger scale than many discussed in this thread. Likely a Barefoot MasterStack (if I can ever audition) or maybe the Genelec 1236s I posted earlier.
 

While I don’t flog my system all day long, there are times when I want to be punched in the face by the SPLs and the raw shockwave of bass. 
 

I imagine my setup will get a whole lot simpler in the process. Probably dump my HT processor and move to either a direct output from my MSB DAC or get something like an Audio Research Ref6 Pre so I can still integrate in my vinyl rig without much hassle.

 

The room correction in the big genelecs is a draw card and they really weren’t on my radar until recently (due to this thread) as a viable option.
 

This thread has delivered value already.

Edited February 20, 2021 by BugPowderDust

[Jhsg]

10 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

I imagine my setup will get a whole lot simpler in the process. Probably dump my HT processor and move to either a direct output from my MSB DAC or get something like an Audio Research Ref6 Pre so I can still integrate in my vinyl rig without much hassle.

this is the only neutral issue for me at the moment. The Dutch 8c’s only have one XLR input (can also be used for AES) so I’m still using a BHK pre & DSD Dac so I have easier volume control & input switch-ability (including HT bypass) while I wait for them to be roon certified. Once this is done - after some testing of course - I hope to be able to sell my BHK Pre & DSD. 
 

I hear roon certification is close and they are working on a control box which will be great. 

[firedog]

On 18/02/2021 at 4:26 AM, Ray H said:

I agree that this is probably the functionality inside the Kii/BXT (the DAC’s) that will likely be superseded quickly, let’s be honest it already has. And it’s not something that Kii can necessarily fix easily.

 

The other thing that made me laugh (cry) was when Bruno Putzy’s came out with his new eigentakt amps not long ago. I wouldn’t be surprised if this becomes an upgrade option for Kii speakers at some point. Of course you can use the analogue in to bypass the dac issue, but that means another component...

 

I am aware I chose a fairly closed option in the Kii. But tbh I’m comfortable  with that for now.

Not sure that will happen. Different companies, licensing. Bruno isn't involved at NCore anymore (he was an employee), at Purify he's a part owner. Kii management also involved. The Kiis have a custom designed NCore. Switching it would be a redesign. Also of the Purify-you'd need a custom module. That doesn't seem to be part of the Purify business plan.

 

And do you actually think you could hear the difference between the custom NCore in the Kii with the DSP control of the speaker cones and how it would sound if they used Purify modules? Not to insult you, but I don't think you or anyone else could. We are talking about tiny differences well under -100db in level.

[Ray H]

Well it is hard to know what the difference would be with the different Amp’s inserted and yes the DSP does have a big say in the end result.

 

But I am fairly confident the eigentakt would sound different enough for it to be audible in some fashion.

 

‘Much like different amps react differently in all systems including one’s with a heavy reliance on DSP.

 

Edit - TBH honest I mentioned the eigentakt more to point out how quickly these things are moving more so than definitively thinking it would be a legitimate upgrade path.I am kind of intrigued where Kii will go moving forward for new products or instead just making improvements to the existing Kii/BXT products.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Ray H

[Jhsg]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

I agree that this is probably the functionality inside the Kii/BXT (the DAC’s) that will likely be superseded quickly, let’s be honest it already has. And it’s not something that Kii can necessarily fix easily.

Functionality can be upgraded to a point. I assume the Kii’s have upgradable software? If so it’ll probably be a few years before the software upgrades start exceeding the hardware capabilities. 

[TerryO]

When it comes to bass it is not very often that I have heard Mike Lenehan say he is impressed by someone else's speakers, in fact I have only heard him say it once while he and Simon Garcia of Heschl Amplifiers were cuddling one each.  ...  

 

PS ... I know, even though what I have said above is true, this doesn't add anything of purpose to the conversation other than hopefully putting a bit of a smile on some serious faces.

Edited February 20, 2021 by TerryO

[wikeeboy]

20 hours ago, Jhsg said:

Following.. 

 

I have recently gone from a traditional rig to some D&D 8c's and am not looking back. The biggest thing that worried me about the transition was bass but it turns out bass is the 8c's biggest strength. I am really enjoying the simplicity and brilliant sound. I have found the parametric EQ in the speakers driven by REW isn't as good as convolutions that I had made up by Thierry at Home Audio Fidelity. His filters are fantastic and worth every cent. 

 

Hi John, i remember hearing about Thierry some time back and the great results people were getting.

 

Excuse my ignorance, but are his filters fed directly into the 8c's DSP via the web interface? SO you are using this file rather tan one created via REW and then uploaded to the 8c's?

[wikeeboy]

7 hours ago, Jhsg said:

This is where I’m at. While I’m not a ‘bass head’, I’ve spent the last 20 years playing in bands and need to feel the sub (kick drum) to be satisfied when listing to music. 
 

As I described in my previous post, this was my biggest concern when going active. When I have listened to the Kii’s I’ve just never got the tickle I need in the low frequencies. Therefore one of the pieces of the equation for me when selecting active speakers was the ability to integrate a subwoofer. This is something that Dutch 8c’s do but I’ve owned them for about 3 weeks now and haven’t felt the need to even plug the sub it. The bass is not only punchy but it’s clear and precise. It’s really impressive to think I am getting more & better bass from the 8c’s than I did from my spendor d9.2, bhk250, rel t9i sub setup I was previously using. 

 

This is great feedback, as it's exactly how i felt with the Kii's. Glad to know it's not just me. And like you, when i demo'd the 8c's i did feel that kick drum in the chest.

 

I like the way you put it that you need to 'feel' the kick drum to be satisfied when listening to music. Me too.

 

 

[wikeeboy]

6 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

Glad to hear the Dutch are working out for you.
 

I truly think my next speaker purchase will be actives but it will be on a bigger scale than many discussed in this thread. Likely a Barefoot MasterStack (if I can ever audition) or maybe the Genelec 1236s I posted earlier.
 

While I don’t flog my system all day long, there are times when I want to be punched in the face by the SPLs and the raw shockwave of bass. 
 

I imagine my setup will get a whole lot simpler in the process. Probably dump my HT processor and move to either a direct output from my MSB DAC or get something like an Audio Research Ref6 Pre so I can still integrate in my vinyl rig without much hassle.

 

The room correction in the big genelecs is a draw card and they really weren’t on my radar until recently (due to this thread) as a viable option.
 

This thread has delivered value already.

 

Now having lived with the Genelecs for a little while, and using the GLM system, it really is a major drawcard. GLM 4 was released only a few months ago and it is a great bit of design. So simple and effective, but also allows you to tweak as much as you like and set severla filters depending on the flavour you're after. You can vary this depending on the music style/recording quality you listen to.

 

It's funny because i have found this active audio space has been laughed at by many 'audiophiles', and is only now starting to receive serious acceptance in the community. At the same time, pro audio stuff like Genelec continues to get the same sneers because it isn't audiophile enough, which i am finding through experience to be unwarranted.

 

Oh, when you get the big rig going mate i have my hands in the air for first dibs at the GTG

 

2 hours ago, firedog said:

Not sure that will happen. Different companies, licensing. Bruno isn't involved at NCore anymore (he was an employee), at Purify he's a part owner. Kii management also involved. The Kiis have a custom designed NCore. Switching it would be a redesign. Also of the Purify-you'd need a custom module. That doesn't seem to be part of the Purify business plan.

 

And do you actually think you could hear the difference between the custom NCore in the Kii with the DSP control of the speaker cones and how it would sound if they used Purify modules? Not to insult you, but I don't think you or anyone else could. We are talking about tiny differences well under -100db in level.

 

Agree 100%!