Listener fatigue

[Al.M]

2 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Are you saying, Al.M, that Yamaha produced spkrs that did not sound good with their own (ss, low distortion = high GNFB!) amps?

 

Sacre blue!  

 

Andy

 

No words saying anything about Yamaha amps, but having tried Yamaha P2201 with them they are better than say a Naim 135 monoblock or Bryston 3B amp of that era. Nothing really wrong with Naim or Bryston in themselves, just not correct match for those speaker. Tube KT88 tube 50w amp was even better matched.

[MattyW]

10 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Are you sure you mean '3rd order harmonics', Matt?  

 

I thought tubes delivered high H2 - and NP made sure his (ss) Class A designs had plenty of that!  

 

Andy

 

Sorry,  2nd. My bad. I've become quite dyslexic as a parent. Post has been fixed 

Edited February 10, 2021 by MattyW

[thejt]

On 07/02/2021 at 7:13 AM, keyse1 said:

 

I think the problem is listening to dreadful records

10 minutes of Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd would have me turning off the stereo very quickly 

Probably why I don’t have records by them

 

Boooooooo

[TDX]

If only based on less fatigue, then I’d say get a big class A, you won’t be fatigued for hours. 

[muon*]

19 minutes ago, TDX said:

If only based on less fatigue, then I’d say get a big class A, you won’t be fatigued for hours. 

No, you will be sitting there sweating and wondering why you didn't use that money to buy air con'

[muon*]

Meh, fatigue huh!

 

Can come from any one component in a system, or from more than one.........*shrug*

 

Or from playing 3 minutes of Kanya W....

[warweary]

I find one needs fine volume control down in the low loudness section of the volume.  If, for example, setting volume to "1" is too low and then volume "2" is too loud - that'll give me a listener fatigue and eventually a headache.  Fine control is needed.

[MattyW]

7 hours ago, muon* said:

No, you will be sitting there sweating and wondering why you didn't use that money to buy air con'

 

Aye, it's why I opt for little class A paired with high efficiency speakers. Heat and power is a killer here in Brissie even without adding amp heat. 

[MrBurns84]

On 05/02/2021 at 6:24 PM, mud_shark said:

What does one look for in an amp to minimise listener fatigue?

Listener fatigue can mean many things to different people as people have different levels of tolerances to high freqs.   

 

On 05/02/2021 at 6:42 PM, mud_shark said:

It's more of a conceptual question. I keep reading reviews that say amp X  can be listened to for hours without listener fatigue.  So I'm looking to learn more about that (please and thank you)

 

Again...its all how we perceive the output from the said amp.  But its hard to say if 'that' amp is fatiguing...meaning when a reviewer says that, is their system truly transparent for them to state that? May well be but more importantly, the only way to ascertain that is to have that said amp in your own system, in your listening environment and you having listen to it for hours..  Take reviews with a grain of salt... its hard to review something without having some element of personal bias towards it or motivated because they have some sort of paid affiliation to do that review...  Hope this helps @mud_shark

[mud_shark]

16 minutes ago, MrBurns84 said:

Hope this helps

It does, thank-you. I'm pleased with the discussion this has generated. Listener fatigue is something I keep reading about in reviews so was curious to explore a bit further.

In my very limited experience I can sense a difference in how certain setups sound at higher volumes, and can definitely imagine being able to tolerate some for longer periods more than others.  (Not that I'm blasting away at super high volumes for extended periods anymore - I'm more trying to enjoy the tunes at more moderate volumes, with the occasional blast for good measure or when the music really calls for it)

[MrBurns84]

1 hour ago, mud_shark said:

It does, thank-you. I'm pleased with the discussion this has generated. Listener fatigue is something I keep reading about in reviews so was curious to explore a bit further.

In my very limited experience I can sense a difference in how certain setups sound at higher volumes, and can definitely imagine being able to tolerate some for longer periods more than others.  (Not that I'm blasting away at super high volumes for extended periods anymore - I'm more trying to enjoy the tunes at more moderate volumes, with the occasional blast for good measure or when the music really calls for it)

@mud_shark Glad all the members contribution to this discussion was in someway helpful.  If you want to test out this theory...host a GtG with several members and welcome all the feedback in anyway on your system.  The honest or opinionated ones will tell you the way it is...lol

[muon*]

1 hour ago, MrBurns84 said:

Listener fatigue can mean many things to different people as people have different levels of tolerances to high freqs. 

Agreed, some systems that liked by some others will offend my senses to no end.

[Pietro73]

On 10/02/2021 at 3:15 PM, TDX said:

If only based on less fatigue, then I’d say get a big class A, you won’t be fatigued for hours. 

Hi, i got a vintage Luxman L550 (50 watts in pure class A) and i don't know what is listner fatigue. It's like an addiction, it drags me into music for hours and i lost the sense of time. I turn off the my stereo just to do my "father's/husband's job".

Pietro (from Italy).

[Al.M]

On 13/02/2021 at 3:20 AM, Pietro73 said:

Hi, i got a vintage Luxman L550 (50 watts in pure class A) and i don't know what is listner fatigue. It's like an addiction, it drags me into music for hours and i lost the sense of time. I turn off the my stereo just to do my "father's/husband's job".

Pietro (from Italy).

Listener fatigue is everything said in above posts, basically this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listener_fatigue

 

What you have described is enjoyment and wanting to keep listening for long hours, which is good. However, if you listen to other hifi systems, especially ones that are better you may start to realise that your system is not so good and the problems in the sound can then cause you to change your mind and fatigue may begin. For example, your amp may be have too much treble response and after listening to another amp with less you may prefer that.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Al.M

[rockpig]

I skimmed the posts so far and I only read two mentions of Dynamic Range and Compression.

 

In my experience COMPRESSED DYNAMIC RANGE (CDR) in the source media is the major cause of listener fatigue.

All this talk about equipment is only secondary to the real problem.
Sure, a certain combination of gear may make CDR a bit more bearable but it is difficult to polish a turd.
Many Remasters, CDs, LPs and files are turds because they have been compressed.

Do your research before buying.
 

I am sure many of you are already aware of the Loudness Wars, but for you that have not, watch this short 2 minute video.

Loudness War explained

 

I can listen to many albums in a row if they have great DR, but compressed DR albums I can only listen to in small doses.

 

Having everything as loud as everything else means constant pressure on your ear drums = fatigue and un-engaging sound.

[Willco]

So very true--how we have been hoodwinked!

 

Willco

 

 

[tripitaka]

A few years ago, with a previous set of speakers, I somehow became sensitised to sibilance.  I started hearing sibilance, and seemingly nothing else, in just about every track!

 

I began to wonder if I would ever be able to listen to high frequencies again... so I guess that was an extreme case of listener fatigue. 

 

I always loved detail, presence, air, brilliance... and my purchasing choices probably reflected this -  but then it turned around and bit me. 

 

Anyway, my brain recovered and the key was having a way to control the frequency spectrum, over sufficient passage of time (years) for my sensitivity to pass. I still have an equaliser (mosty set on 'bypass') in my signal chain but I am now back to enjoying treble and don't mind authentic sibilance, so long as it doesnt sound distorted.

 

 

 

 

[andyr]

30 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

I am now back to enjoying treble and don't mind authentic sibilance, so long as it doesn't sound distorted.

 

'authentic' and 'sibilance' in the same sentence is an oxymoron, IMO.  

 

Andy

 

[tripitaka]

5 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

'authentic' and 'sibilance' in the same sentence is an oxymoron, IMO.  

 

Andy

 

 

I expect we may be using different versions of terminology, but to my understanding sibilance is just part of the human voice and modern close miking leaves nowhere to hide for vocal artists.

[andyr]

14 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

 

I expect we may be using different versions of terminology, but to my understanding sibilance is just part of the human voice and modern close miking leaves nowhere to hide for vocal artists.

 

 

That may well be true, t.  

 

I agree that some people's speaking voice has much more sssibilance than others.  However, given that the same singer often doesn't show sibilance ... when I hear it on a (vinyl) track, I always wonder whether:

• it's there on the recording - so it's my great cart setup that is revealing it.
• or it's due to my (bad!) cart alignment.

 

The Eagles "Hotel California" track on the "HFO" album has sibilance, in my system.  

 

Andy

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by andyr

[Guest DrSK]

On 07/02/2021 at 1:45 PM, Al.M said:

To expand on my earlier post about the noise regulations definition of annoyance, there are also two other characteristics defined and legislated for which are the presence of modulation and impulsiveness in the sound that causes additional noise impact.

 

Modulation is like constant waves and fluctuation in the sound like for example a siren or a house alarm and causes extra annoyance.

 

Impulsiveness is large noise peak fluctuations like that in a construction pile driver or rock breaker, a difference of more than 12dB between the average sound level and the peak/s.

 

When you have any or all of the above going on in a noise/sound source each one attracts a +5dB penalty to the average noise level being measured. So for example, the noise/sound is measured average at 55 dB one must add a penalty of anywhere between 5-15dB if either tonality, modulation and/or impulsiveness is detected so the final legal measured and adjusted noise can be as high as 70dB(A). The regulation standard might be that it should not go over something like 45dB(A) depending on location and time of day/night. The noise regulations stipulate that in terms of unwanted noise, music is to be assumed to automatically have both tonality and modulation and +10dB must always to added as penalty and impulsiveness must be proven to exist with measurements.

 

The above is not the total explanation of fatigue but it should probably be considered that when one has been listening for too long a period of time and your attention and enjoyment starts to waver you are probably entering the tipping point scenario from musical enjoyment to unwanted noise with tonality, modulation and impulsiveness, which most forms of music inherently contain and starts to become fatiguing.

 

Certain types of music, loudness levels and duration of listening will likely contribute to more fatigue or noise annoyance such as music with prominent midrange like heavy metal/grunge, impulsive bass doof doof dance techno, certain types of high pictured voices and instruments etc. Smoother, even handed and less complex music is toterated for longer and less offensive. Loudness levels also play a big role in fatigue or annoyance and personally I find levels approaching 80-90dB(A)+ plus start to make the ears flinch which is also a hearing science fact see here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/protect.html

 

 

I don't think these penalties relate to listening fatigue. 

 

The penalties for tonality aren't really annoyance based but due to the significant limitations of A-weighting which is a crude approximation (state of the art in 1933) of the auditory system at moderate sound levels. A pure tone influences hair cells in frequency bins other than at that tone in much the same way as an imperfect filter with spill over to adjacent bands. This means that a tone may be perceived as louder than broadband noise for the same level. This is also how frequency masking works where a tone may prevent adjacent tones at a lower level from being audible. The penalties in Australian environmental guidelines are also rather crude, but better than nothing.  Better corrections using sound pressure level are to be had in ISO. 

 

Again with modulation and impulsiveness, these are a time domain consideration which aren't covered by A-weighting. A-weighting is only a frequency domain approximation of the auditory system. The penalties for these sources are to account, again for deficiencies in using A-weighting. It is easy to perhaps assume that an integrating meter using Leq would capture the true energy, which it does. However our auditory system does not respond to the true energy level. For quickly modulating or impulsive sound our perception is shaped by our auditory systems attack and decay rates which are frequency dependent. Our perception of sound level instead relates to the area under the time trace of the sound level (including the spill over effects previously discussed into adjacent bands by a tone) including the attack and decay curves for each frequency band. These attack and decay curves again can mask noise levels less than these curves.

 

These time traces across each frequency band may be summed for each time step to produce what is known as specific loudness for each time step and contains all we can perceive. Once this is passed through a filter which smooths the bigger oscillations, this is the loudness of the sound we perceive at (from memory) 4ms time intervals. 

 

Loudness is not the same thing as noise level in dBA. A-weighting can not measure loudness, but is a crude approximation that at times can not even reliably confirm which sound is noisier. 

 

Now the information contained in the specific loudness but lost in the loudness contains information that relates to additional characteristics such as roughness and harshness of sound as defined in psychoacoustics literature.

 

I suspect that some of the clues to listening fatigue may lie in this region which contains harshness and roughness which isn't really measurable with standard acoustic measurement instruments unless they are running these psychoacoustics approaches with standards such as DIN 45631 with the 2010 amendment and the ability to extract both the loudness and specific loudness traces. 

 

I personally had some fatigue with my early Metaxas Soliloquy but not with my Electrocompaniet AW180 monoblocks. The Metaxas has greater realism on low frequency strings on pianos and double bass, especially on the pluck or strike transients on attack but measures very closely on steady state response.  The sharpness of the Metaxas attack had me checking the peak noise levels against health and safety regulations at reasonable average noise levels when I first got the amp, there was no safety issue. I haven't measured peak levels on the Electrocompaniet. 

 

I miss the greater realism at the low end of the Metaxas but have never felt fatigued by the Electrocompaniet. 

 

I'm not entirely sure in my mind if the differences in the attack on low frequency strings are a low or high frequency effect. 

 

And if anyone is still reading, on modulation/impulsive noise it is interesting to note that in many instances of it our perception of it is largely an artifact of our attack and decay curves. We often can not hear the true modulation depth / noise level fluctuation as it often drops below the intersection of our attack and decay curves. A common example is the noise of engine compression brake modulation on trucks. 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by DrSK

[MattyW]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

'authentic' and 'sibilance' in the same sentence is an oxymoron, IMO.  

 

Andy

 

 

Not really....  It's often in the recording itself. I find its always necessary to tread a fine line between all that detail I enjoy and sibilance. I think my current Aleph-M is ever so rolled off up top so it de-emphasizes sibilance.

 

Sometimes it's the way a vocalist enunciates things, other times being too close to the Mic, sometimes it may even be due to the mixer used in the studio. You can't totally get rid of it without losing the detail which makes things so enjoyable..... So it's a case of getting the balance where you like it. This balance is different for all of us 

[muon*]

Sibilance lives in the frequency range between 2kHz and 10kHz.

[manta_act]

On 10/02/2021 at 9:44 PM, andyr said:

 

What a very different listening experience to my own, m.    Magnepans - with the 'true ribbon' tweeter - since about 1995 ... absolutely no listener fatigue!

 

Andy

 

I expect for your system Andy -that is absolutely true.

Darren in Canberra

[andyr]

4 minutes ago, manta_act said:

I expect for your system Andy -that is absolutely true.

Darren in Canberra

 

Thank you, Darren.    Then again - as you know, - I have been using amps which sound great!  

 

I hope you are still enjoying listening to your GK-2.

 

Andy