Ian Lyons 14 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Hi one and and all, Well after finally putting together a hi fi system ,that is my most expensive and supposedly best ,I am quite rapt with it, That is ,with some of the music I play .The speakers ,which are the only secondhand part of the system,are beautiful with some music, but bright and too much treble with a lot of the music I play. They are Spendor D9's.They are hooked up to a PrimaLunaEvo 400 streaming Tidal music through a Auralic Aries G1 and Geiseler dac and Mike Lenehan top Speaker cables and interconnects.I also listen to flac quality music on sold state hardrive and it sounds the same as the streamed music, ie very bright .I added another band in the Aries and cut the high frequency just a tad .I,ve played with speaker placement, but to no avail This brings me to my query originally when checking out speakers we asked to hear When the Levee Breaks Led Zeppelin, And it sounded crap They said not a good song to test speakers.On my older and cheaper system after playing with tone When the Levee Breaks sounds great.I know purists would be horrified .But I am interested to know who on this forum play with tone.I love the PrimaLuna but wonder if I should of bought an amp with tone controls .I am thinking of buying a pre amp with tone control second hand. My lovelylady is not impressed with me ,any sugestions on what I should get ,with budget in mind, is more than appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites
Steffen 1,265 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 8 hours ago, Ian Lyons said: This brings me to my query originally when checking out speakers we asked to hear When the Levee Breaks Led Zeppelin, And it sounded crap They said not a good song to test speakers. They are not wrong. This appears to be a particularly poorly recorded/mastered track. It sounds like a ghetto blaster in a parking garage I think your D9s are right. 8 hours ago, Ian Lyons said: On my older and cheaper system after playing with tone When the Levee Breaks sounds great. I’m not sure about a system that makes this track sound great – what would it do to a well recorded track? 9 hours ago, Ian Lyons said: I know purists would be horrified .But I am interested to know who on this forum play with tone. I’m not a purist* and I’m not horrified by tone controls**, but I don’t think this track can be fixed with tone controls alone. * lie ** another lie 2 Link to post Share on other sites
GregWormald 1,910 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Sometimes the only thing to do with very poorly recorded tracks is play with the reproduction chain. If well recorded tracks sound good then there's probably nothing wrong with the system overall. If I had too many tracks sounding too bright (I don't know the Spendors personally but they get excellent reviews) then I'd be trying: toe-in, toe-out; looking at the listening room and how it might 'over-reflect' the treble, and maybe even putting an easily removable cloth/felt patch over the tweeter. Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Lyons 14 Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 Hi Steffen, When The Levee Breaks is just as well produced as any rock music of that period .Thats the way it was back then.Even a bit later INXS playing the Loved One also lacks the dynamics of more current music and yes my older system with tone would cut some of that tinny high frequency sound that does your head in.Interestingly after spending some time on the Auralic community support forum there are members asking for filters such as loundness switch as they say that they lose sound dynamics when volume down low.Equally, it was there they talked about pre amps with tone control. I have also noticed there are some well known integrated amplifiers like accuphase that have tone/loudness controls.I have also found that this is a very debatable subject.I am a real newbie to the audiophile world,but if music can make your ears almost bleed because of the sound with certain music ,I am still feeling that a bit of cheating is useful Link to post Share on other sites
aussievintage 4,175 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 8 minutes ago, GregWormald said: putting an easily removable cloth/felt patch over the tweeter. That reminds me of the expression "put a sock in it" which the legend says refers to a method of making an old acoustic gramophone play more quietly Link to post Share on other sites
Rosco8 313 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) Seriously nice speakers. Jeez what a bugger. I had the same problem, brought a 2nd hand set of speakers, Dynaudios C2 Plats in my case and my existing Parasound system had the same problem, just too bright (harsh) on some tracks, rest were fantastic, it drove me up the wall. Had no issue on my previous speakers (2 sets). I dragged them to lots of different positions in the room, mainly made a difference to the bass. As I liked the speakers I did a lot of reading on forums on what amps work best with the speakers, and ended up changing the preamp and main amp to match them and the existing system with the original speakers migrated to my wife's lounge room and is not used ? None of the gear I have has tone controls anymore and most lack balance as well. I found preamps (valve for me) made a big difference on taming highs and even rolling valves makes a difference, though you already have a valve amp. The power amp made some difference as well. I have since upgraded again and took very special care to balance the new system and migrated the other system into the family room which does get used ? I can rotate 5 sets of speakers thru the 2 balanced systems and all are great. I also had problems of bass dead spots and ended up treating the room with acoustic panels that made a big improvement, a never ending journey !!! Note I also introduced a Geisler DAC and it didn't seem to have an effect on the highs, since upgraded as well ?, as digital source I have used a Laptop, Bluesound Node 2i and currently running a Lumin mini as transport and none introduce treble harshness, I haven't tried an Auralic G1. Edited January 16 by Rosco8 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Steam 1,024 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) 22 hours ago, Ian Lyons said: But I am interested to know who on this forum play with tone. I use the tone controls when needed - tracks like this are exactly the sort of thing that tone controls can really help. Some recordings of the Who are also shockers but what a great band. Tone controls for tracks like this are the difference between turning it up and turning it off. People complain about phase errors caused by tone controls but for tracks like this.... Plus if YOU like the tone controls use em. Don’t let anyone else tell you what YOU like. Edited January 16 by Steam 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Steam 1,024 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) another thought is the balance could be on the bright side to begin with if there is an impedance mismatch between the amp and the speakers. Doesn’t sound like your problem but I have had this experience with a tube amp/speaker pairing (audio research Ref110 and Focal Electra 1007Be don’t play well together). Edited January 16 by Steam Link to post Share on other sites
deepthought 176 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 23 hours ago, Ian Lyons said: Hi one and and all, Well after finally putting together a hi fi system ,that is my most expensive and supposedly best ,I am quite rapt with it, That is ,with some of the music I play .The speakers ,which are the only secondhand part of the system,are beautiful with some music, but bright and too much treble with a lot of the music I play. They are Spendor D9's.They are hooked up to a PrimaLunaEvo 400 streaming Tidal music through a Auralic Aries G1 and Geiseler dac and Mike Lenehan top Speaker cables and interconnects.I also listen to flac quality music on sold state hardrive and it sounds the same as the streamed music, ie very bright .I added another band in the Aries and cut the high frequency just a tad .I,ve played with speaker placement, but to no avail This brings me to my query originally when checking out speakers we asked to hear When the Levee Breaks Led Zeppelin, And it sounded crap They said not a good song to test speakers.On my older and cheaper system after playing with tone When the Levee Breaks sounds great.I know purists would be horrified .But I am interested to know who on this forum play with tone.I love the PrimaLuna but wonder if I should of bought an amp with tone controls .I am thinking of buying a pre amp with tone control second hand. My lovelylady is not impressed with me ,any sugestions on what I should get ,with budget in mind, is more than appreciated. I have what I consider to be a very well balanced system. I can listen to anything from Baroque to EDM and it is very enjoyable. That whole Led Zeppelin album is just about unlistenable on my system though. There are other (mainly) older recordings that sound quite bad on my system for a variety of reasons and I simply accept that my system is revealing enough to expose those shortcomings and just listen through them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Steffen 1,265 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 41 minutes ago, Steam said: Oh another thought is the balance could be on the bright side to begin with if there is an impedance mismatch between the amp and the speakers. You mean, if they are not mismatched enough? Speakers and amps should be as impedance mismatched as possible. The output impedance of the amp should be much lower than the speaker impedance (by the damping factor). When the damping factor is too low, the first thing to suffer is the bass. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
muon* 3,678 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 49 minutes ago, deepthought said: I have what I consider to be a very well balanced system. I can listen to anything from Baroque to EDM and it is very enjoyable. That whole Led Zeppelin album is just about unlistenable on my system though. There are other (mainly) older recordings that sound quite bad on my system for a variety of reasons and I simply accept that my system is revealing enough to expose those shortcomings and just listen through them. Same, with a system that is well balanced over all, I just accept poor recordings for what they are. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Andrews_melb 373 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 I thought jimmy page loved the recording of the drums in that song, the specific sound it makes. Its also been sampled a heap of times in songs. Im not saying it sounds good or bad, just remembering an interview where he was trying to find a specific sound. Maybe in ‘It might get loud’ Link to post Share on other sites
The Rock Puppy 90 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Stealing a thought from @Irek in a different thread, a Schiit Loki might be applicable to your situation. You'd have to look into it further, though. It won't break the bank, either. Link to post Share on other sites
DrSK 465 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) I'm running the same cabling and a DAC from Gieseler Plus Lenehan speakers a Gieseler preamp with either an early Metaxas Soliloquy or Electrocompaniet AW180 monoblocks and don't have this issue. I doubt it would be the Prima Luna with the rest of the combo other than your speakers. A few suggestions, while a bit rubbish, download a sound level meter app that does 1/3 octave of 1/6 octave frequency bands and then play pink noise through both systems to confirm the differences. The app should be fine at confirming differences other than below 300Hz. This would at least give an idea of what EQ you could apply with Roon or other while feeding the DAC via USB from a laptop etc. It may give an indication of whether your old system is actually missing treble, but apps and phone mics and mic amps are a bit rubbish in these regions. While perhaps not the same thing, jumping from a crap system to hifi I found something similar, simply because the crap system really only put out mids and no real treble. It was like hearing it all as new again and different music. It was only an issue with the old stuff as my internal reference of what I thought the music should sound like was different from actual. Plus an insane amount of detail. Edited January 17 by DrSK 1 Link to post Share on other sites
muon* 3,678 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Can you even use a separate pre amp with the EVO 400? Link to post Share on other sites
stereo coffee 410 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 A very similar thread asking about equalizers in home audio system was answered by many including myself here: Tone controls are not needed in good audio systems as they add distortion and remove your ability to hear the music you enjoy as it was intended to be heard. To get yourself on the right path again, begin visualizing components between your source and power amp to now be as simple as is possible, passing audio signals, as anything added to the source or detracted from the source there, is not what you require to be amplified. Rather the capability of the source component is what you need to be experiencing, it really is as simple as that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Steam 1,024 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 16 hours ago, stereo coffee said: Tone controls are not needed in good audio systems as they add distortion and remove your ability to hear the music you enjoy as it was intended to be heard. I understand what you are saying and if all I listened to was audiophile jazz recordings that would be true. But some of us listen to great music that was badly recorded. This means when you play on tha quality system it sounds horrible. But the music is awesome. So, option 1). Don’t ever listen to that great track ever again option 2) mess with tone controls or dsp or other things so you can get something that allows you to enjoy that great music. I’m for option 2. For me it’s about the music not what is the cleanest system is. I think it was J. Gordon Holt quotesd as stating that “The quality of the music is inversely proportional to the quality of the recording”. 16 hours ago, stereo coffee said: To get yourself on the right path again, The Right path! I’m very happily on the “wrong path” thanks very much! Edited January 18 by Steam 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites
stereo coffee 410 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Can you give any examples of "that great music" that was badly recorded ? maybe I have the same recordings and can let you know how well they sound, without making them distort with added tone controls. Link to post Share on other sites
stereo coffee 410 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Jazz certainly is very pleasant but I can assure I also listen intently to some of the heaviest recordings as well, as they were intended to be heard. As example have you heard King Crimson Larks Tongues in Aspic part 2 Live at Asbury Park Casino ? It reveals so much on a good audio system, for instance you should be hearing the entire stage width including audience exclamations during the performance. John Wetton's bass is almost subsonic at times. It should be imminently apparent that it was a very well crafted live multitrack recording, for 1974 although has very minor imperfections like microphone feedback. The same track although on the 1972 studio recording has John Wetton singing on the same track. Billy Thorpe and the Aztecs Live at Sunbury track 3 Momma was recorded effectively in the dark by legendary recording engineer John French It features similarly a very wide sound stage with a good audio system you should nearly be able to metaphorically smell the heat coming off the Strauss amps the keyboards concurrent with Billys playing akin to the best Mahavishnu orchestra could do are stunning. The bass lines are incredibly deep, the drums have amaazing panning and you should distinctly hear the incredible bass drumming the distortion and feedback of Fender bass and Gibson guitars is perfectly captured adding much higher frequency harmonics as well. Need any more ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Steam 1,024 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 53 minutes ago, stereo coffee said: Jazz certainly is very pleasant but I can assure I also listen intently to some of the heaviest recordings as well, as they were intended to be heard. As example have you heard King Crimson Larks Tongues in Aspic part 2 Live at Asbury Park Casino ? It reveals so much on a good audio system, for instance you should be hearing the entire stage width including audience exclamations during the performance. John Wetton's bass is almost subsonic at times. It should be imminently apparent that it was a very well crafted live multitrack recording, for 1974 although has very minor imperfections like microphone feedback. The same track although on the 1972 studio recording has John Wetton singing on the same track. Billy Thorpe and the Aztecs Live at Sunbury track 3 Momma was recorded effectively in the dark by legendary recording engineer John French It features similarly a very wide sound stage with a good audio system you should nearly be able to metaphorically smell the heat coming off the Strauss amps the keyboards concurrent with Billys playing akin to the best Mahavishnu orchestra could do are stunning. The bass lines are incredibly deep, the drums have amaazing panning and you should distinctly hear the incredible bass drumming the distortion and feedback of Fender bass and Gibson guitars is perfectly captured adding much higher frequency harmonics as well. Need any more ? You still seem to be missing the point. Not everything is well recorded. What do you do with the stuff you have that is not well recorded? Surely you have something that is not good. Lenny Kravitz sounds like he recorded in a toilet cubicle with a Walkman. Early Who recordings used ground up razor blades for the treble and forgot the bass. Do you dismiss music that’s badly recorded? Or do you grit your teeth and suffer for your pure signal path? If YOU like this then great. But please don’t tell me what I should like or that what I like is somehow wrong. The Who, were an awesome band that unfortunantly didn’t have the kit at the time to capture well what they were doing. If I can mess with it and make it the way I like it and enjoy it then great. Do you tell the owners of flea watt tube amps and high efficiency speakers that their system is euphonic and they are doing it wrong - another group on the wrong path. On 16/01/2021 at 12:10 PM, Steam said: Plus if YOU like the tone controls use em. Don’t let anyone else tell you what YOU like. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
stereo coffee 410 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 2 minutes ago, Steam said: You still seem to be missing the point. Not everything is well recorded. What do you do with the stuff you have that is not well recorded? Surely you have something that is not good. Lenny Kravitz sounds like he recorded in a toilet cubicle with a Walkman. Early Who recordings used ground up razor blades for the treble and forgot the bass. Do you dismiss music that’s badly recorded? Or do you grit your teeth and suffer for your pure signal path? If YOU like this then great. But please don’t tell me what I should like or that what I like is somehow wrong. The Who, were an awesome band that unfortunantly didn’t have the kit at the time to capture well what they were doing. If I can mess with it and make it the way I like it and enjoy it then great. Do you tell the owners of flea watt tube amps and high efficiency speakers that their system is euphonic and they are doing it wrong - another group on the wrong path. The earliest Who recording I own is "Who else". Quite the opposite of what you are saying, occurs when using a good audio system. Recordings are not bad as such rather some just reveal their inherent history limitations. However what is there including the limitation for me, is hugely enjoyable. With a good audio system the limitation is like a separate present multi track and soon falls into place correctly with where it fits with what is heard. So it is not bad as such but important in most cases to also hear preserving what occurred. i never grit my teeth rather i enjoy what is there. Here is one which you may have heard Creams wheels of Fire from 1968 it preserves the way the tape was stored, as you can hear magnetic print through on the track Spoonful. That sort of detail is outside the performance but is important as it reveals a limitation of analog tape recording. Analog recording generally was extremely good, aided by preserving dynamics with companding. Robert Johnson's recordings no one in the history of music I would say no one had less money to record. Yet the recordings from November of 1936 contain the friction noise of the acetate being cut, which is not a problem rather Robert's voice and guitar playing and presence in the room is what is appreciated and easily heard. The acetate noise sounds as a separate track so is just interesting. Such is the appreciation of external noise, many artists add the same noise to some recordings Suzanne Vega as example. The microphone used to capture his voice arguably the main focus of the recording has simply awesome dynamic capability. When recordings get into the hands of record companies rather than the artists is where lesser versions proliferate and some of these are for me are just annoying. But history shows the better versions can be sourced. A great example is Whole lot of Love by Led Zeppelin the version available for over at least 48 years had been equalized for cassette ( those horrible tone controls ) but that was not the recordings fault rather a arbitrary decision of the record company. The original recording has been subsequently been restored by the artist in this case Jimmy Page and contains no such limiting eq. Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 12,537 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 ?♂️ Link to post Share on other sites
Martykt 2,769 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 4 hours ago, Steam said: Do you tell the owners of flea watt tube amps and high efficiency speakers that their system is euphonic and they are doing it wrong - another group on the wrong path. So what exactly is the correct path that everyone should be following? Link to post Share on other sites
DrSK 465 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 22 hours ago, stereo coffee said: Tone controls are not needed in good audio systems as they add distortion and remove your ability to hear the music you enjoy as it was intended to be heard. To get yourself on the right path again, begin visualizing components between your source and power amp to now be as simple as is possible, passing audio signals, as anything added to the source or detracted from the source there, is not what you require to be amplified. Rather the capability of the source component is what you need to be experiencing, it really is as simple as that. Not totally sure that I agree with all this. Many of our systems are better than what the music was mixed for and from what I gather talking to sound engineers, there is a balance between what sounds good on a full reference system vs what the target market has at home. Some stuff I have definitely sounds better on my lesser speakers and better balanced. And a lot of older stuff sounds 'terrible' , in part because my internal reference and nostalgic memories were derived off far lesser systems. Music isn't just about reproducing what was in the mixing room, it is about how you feel about it and transporting yourself back to some other place and time. Edited January 18 by DrSK 1 Link to post Share on other sites
aussievintage 4,175 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 45 minutes ago, DrSK said: Not totally sure that I agree with all this. You are not alone. The purists make you feel bad about just wanting to hear the music at it's best in your particular situation. If a tone control helps, then use it. There is no single path that needs to be followed. 7 Link to post Share on other sites
Steffen 1,265 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 On 17/01/2021 at 9:50 PM, stereo coffee said: Tone controls are not needed in good audio systems as they add distortion That’s what they’re designed to do. Hi-/low-/bandpass filters add linear distortion, to undo linear distortions introduced e.g. by the speakers rolling off the bass or the treble. Unfortunately, this undoing (deconvolution) is hard to get right, and it’s very easy to cause more damage in trying. This is especially true with crude tools like 31-band graphic EQs, with filters centred around a fixed set of frequencies, and typically no way of adjusting the filter Q. Link to post Share on other sites
stereo coffee 410 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 12 hours ago, DrSK said: Not totally sure that I agree with all this. Many of our systems are better than what the music was mixed for and from what I gather talking to sound engineers, there is a balance between what sounds good on a full reference system vs what the target market has at home. Some stuff I have definitely sounds better on my lesser speakers and better balanced. And a lot of older stuff sounds 'terrible' , in part because my internal reference and nostalgic memories were derived off far lesser systems. Music isn't just about reproducing what was in the mixing room, it is about how you feel about it and transporting yourself back to some other place and time. Most audio systems are not even close to what the recording can actually provide. I have often mentioned companding which is a portmanteau of compression and expansion, it has been used in the recording industry with aim of preserving dynamic range since about 1966. Yet few even know what it actually does, and despite manufacturer attempts it remains unused with playback..... until then, the result is ignoring 20db of available dynamic range that the recording contains. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/560757/Dbx-Type-Iv-Conversion-System.html Your first paragraph, mentions inevitable compromises to be the voice of certain sound engineers, The sound engineer is not to blame IMO rather many are fully dedicated to doing audio properly. We simply need to refuse compromise in equipment we use, and get as close as we can to the original performance. This entails knowing where sections of the audio industry actively promote compromise at the expense of doing audio properly and not to buy such equipment. The infamous Citation 2 power amplifier review shows what happens when a manufacturer begins promoting what is possible: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/harman-kardon-citation-ii-power-amplifier We can see it never would have occurred had it not been for the designers unwavering passion for achievement: "Stu Hegeman’s circuits produced a sound that had a life and a breadth and image depth that were stunning. They were the ultimate in soundstaging and sense of immersion." Link to post Share on other sites
Graywulf 119 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 On 15/01/2021 at 3:45 PM, Ian Lyons said: Hi one and and all, Well after finally putting together a hi fi system ,that is my most expensive and supposedly best ,I am quite rapt with it, That is ,with some of the music I play .The speakers ,which are the only secondhand part of the system,are beautiful with some music, but bright and too much treble with a lot of the music I play. They are Spendor D9's.They are hooked up to a PrimaLunaEvo 400 streaming Tidal music through a Auralic Aries G1 and Geiseler dac and Mike Lenehan top Speaker cables and interconnects.I also listen to flac quality music on sold state hardrive and it sounds the same as the streamed music, ie very bright .I added another band in the Aries and cut the high frequency just a tad .I,ve played with speaker placement, but to no avail This brings me to my query originally when checking out speakers we asked to hear When the Levee Breaks Led Zeppelin, And it sounded crap They said not a good song to test speakers.On my older and cheaper system after playing with tone When the Levee Breaks sounds great.I know purists would be horrified .But I am interested to know who on this forum play with tone.I love the PrimaLuna but wonder if I should of bought an amp with tone controls .I am thinking of buying a pre amp with tone control second hand. My lovelylady is not impressed with me ,any sugestions on what I should get ,with budget in mind, is more than appreciated. yehhhhhhhh, NAH. I love, when the Levee. They are 'correct' in that it's not a good 'test track', but it should'nt sound as bad as you are describing. i have 3 versions of that track, the 'original' AAD, and two 'remasters'. IF you are using the Jimmy Page one, that is (sadly) the worst version. As mentioned above, the mastering/recording of the time but in no way does it sound as sharp as you are describing on my system. Maybe you have a 'system synergy' problem? (everything very revealing/detailed in the chain?) The Harmonica IS supposed to be 'forward' on that track, but not BRIGHT! One track I constantly use for a system 'evaluation' is a track by Curved Air, called Paris by night. It's a very 'boring track' BUT, the first 2 minutes or so are all 'top keys' of a Grand Piano, if your system is too bright/forward, you will know it. It'll literally make you start cringing. The track then changes and goes into some pretty deep bass, again, repetitive, but it uses 3 separate 'instruments' going deeper and deeper often 'overlaid'. You need both good bottom end to get this, and I've heard systems unable to separate the 3 'instruments' clearly. Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 12,537 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, stereo coffee said: "Stu Hegeman’s circuits produced a sound that had a life and a breadth and image depth that were stunning. They were the ultimate in soundstaging and sense of immersion." Typical reviewer guff that you'll find in pretty much any review of any component in any "hi-end" magazine Link to post Share on other sites
stereo coffee 410 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said: Typical reviewer guff that you'll find in pretty much any review of any component in any "hi-end" magazine Subjective opinion I agree. it would be interesting to know if the Bob Carver writing it is the same legendary amplifier designer. Link to post Share on other sites
DrSK 465 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 3 hours ago, stereo coffee said: Most audio systems are not even close to what the recording can actually provide. I have often mentioned companding which is a portmanteau of compression and expansion, it has been used in the recording industry with aim of preserving dynamic range since about 1966. Yet few even know what it actually does, and despite manufacturer attempts it remains unused with playback..... until then, the result is ignoring 20db of available dynamic range that the recording contains. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/560757/Dbx-Type-Iv-Conversion-System.html Your first paragraph, mentions inevitable compromises to be the voice of certain sound engineers, The sound engineer is not to blame IMO rather many are fully dedicated to doing audio properly. We simply need to refuse compromise in equipment we use, and get as close as we can to the original performance. This entails knowing where sections of the audio industry actively promote compromise at the expense of doing audio properly and not to buy such equipment. The infamous Citation 2 power amplifier review shows what happens when a manufacturer begins promoting what is possible: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/harman-kardon-citation-ii-power-amplifier We can see it never would have occurred had it not been for the designers unwavering passion for achievement: "Stu Hegeman’s circuits produced a sound that had a life and a breadth and image depth that were stunning. They were the ultimate in soundstaging and sense of immersion." Really not sure what your point is? There is a guy on here asking for help to get the sound they want and you haven't provided any assistance at all. Just endless links and comments saying effectively they are wrong to want what they want. I have given them some free solutions to at least try and measure the differences and can relate in that for me 90s grunge for example is internally calibrated to nostalgic memory on crap single driver systems. And that in talking to retired sound engineers, some recordings were mixed to sound the best on their likely target markets systems. Your response are reminding me of my first stereo.net experience where I got slammed for many pages for asking for help and wanting something that wasn't what the AV crowd group think thought was a good solution. Stereo.net for me only got saved after getting PMed by others with very nice systems doing exactly what I wanted. Edited January 19 by DrSK 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites
aussievintage 4,175 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 10 minutes ago, DrSK said: Really not sure what your point is? There is a guy on here asking for help to get the sound they want and you haven't provided any assistance at all. Just endless links and comments saying effectively they are wrong to want what they want. I have given them some free solutions to at least try and measure the differences and can relate in that for me 90s grunge for example is internally calibrated to nostalgic memory on crap single driver systems. And that in talking to retired sound engineers, some recordings were mixed to sound the best on their likely target markets systems. Your response are reminding me of my first stereo.net experience where I got slammed for many pages for asking for help and wanting something that wasn't what the AV crowd group think thought was a good solution. Stereo.net for me only got saved after getting PMed by others with very nice systems doing exactly what I wanted. It's becoming a bad habit indeed. The place could indeed be more helpful if we respected others needs and wants. Even if we just read the title and first post and try to stick to the subject, it would help. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
stereo coffee 410 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, DrSK said: Really not sure what your point is? There is a guy on here asking for help to get the sound they want and you haven't provided any assistance at all. Just endless links and comments saying effectively they are wrong to want what they want. I have given them some free solutions to at least try and measure the differences and can relate in that for me 90s grunge for example is internally calibrated to nostalgic memory on crap single driver systems. And that in talking to retired sound engineers, some recordings were mixed to sound the best on their likely target markets systems. Your response are reminding me of my first stereo.net experience where I got slammed for many pages for asking for help and wanting something that wasn't what the AV crowd group think thought was a good solution. Stereo.net for me only got saved after getting PMed by others with very nice systems doing exactly what I wanted. The point is I was replying to your assertion that equipment was ahead of recordings, when in a number of areas that is quite untrue. namely Dynamic range, & frequency response. If you read what i have said i am giving him more help than he realizes by suggesting tone controls are not good for audio reproduction. it would be a sad day indeed if we just politely agreed with audio fantasies that in the long term prevent properly hearing recordings . 1 Link to post Share on other sites
virgil 8 Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 To answer the original question of taming a bright system. Have you tried treating the room with acoustic panels, rugs etc it can have a dramatic impact on how your system sounds. I watched a Darko video on acoustics and the expert was saying your are listening to a larger percentage of the room rather than the speakers themselves. Try to see if changing listening height in relation to the tweeter helps. Roll tubes in your amp and try some different cables. I find power cables in some situations can help with brightness. Lastly but not least tone controls in an amp are great. I have a preamp with tone controls and I find it helpful in taming bright recordings using both bass and treble controls. There are so many variables in audio reproduction from human hearing, room acoustics, different equipment,it would be very hard to have a system that plays everything well. The recording engineer can only mix the music the way they hear it and tries to balance it out. The problem is they are using different equipment/rooms and lastly people hear sound differently. When we change cables, equipment etc we are changing the sound/tone so why are tone controls on amps a no no. McIntosh and Dan D'agostino use tone controls - are they going down the wrong path also??? I believe that one should try to balance a system so your favourite music sounds great firstly. Tone controls are there simply to help with difficult tracks - distortion and all ? 4 Link to post Share on other sites
aussievintage 4,175 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 2 hours ago, virgil said: Lastly but not least tone controls in an amp are great. I have a preamp with tone controls and I find it helpful in taming bright recordings using both bass and treble controls. There are so many variables in audio reproduction from human hearing, room acoustics, different equipment,it would be very hard to have a system that plays everything well. The recording engineer can only mix the music the way they hear it and tries to balance it out. The problem is they are using different equipment/rooms and lastly people hear sound differently. When we change cables, equipment etc we are changing the sound/tone so why are tone controls on amps a no no. McIntosh and Dan D'agostino use tone controls - are they going down the wrong path also??? I believe that one should try to balance a system so your favourite music sounds great firstly. Tone controls are there simply to help with difficult tracks - distortion and all ? I think we need to get T-shirts made. Support tone controls !! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Lyons 14 Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 Well, some time has past since I started this topic and after reading all replies, I would like to thank one and all for their comments. Some comments tended to go off on a tangent but most were constructive. Comments from DrSK , Aussie Vintage, Virgil to name just a few ,showed me that I am not alone with my impure thoughts, regarding tone control. For those discussing equalizers in depth,I have said that I wouldnt go down that wrong path. My system is 99% balanced I believe ,but the speakers are just a tad bright .I just sat and listened to Pink Floyd Money and when the sax kicked in I went to where I wanted to be put .In the meantime I will save up for a quality pre amp that will not demean the system that I have , so that I will enjoy those songs that my speakers dont do justice to,and those that ,how do you say, need a bit of help 2 Link to post Share on other sites
MattyW 2,361 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 On 16/01/2021 at 12:45 PM, muon* said: Same, with a system that is well balanced over all, I just accept poor recordings for what they are. I'm in complete agreement with both of you. If find the more balanced and neutral my system is, everything sounds good. Sure only the best recordings sound spectacular but I still enjoy the musical content of poor recordings. I still enjoy 90's grunge. A great system will still sound better with poor recordings than a poor system and be listenable with darned near anything Link to post Share on other sites
virgil 8 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 6 hours ago, aussievintage said: I think we need to get T-shirts made. Support tone controls !! One in medium please!! Where do we place the knobs???? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Red MacKay 1,265 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Just get yourself a pre with tone controls and be done with it. Ideal for the purists? No, but who cares a toss what they think. Had the same problem with my 385HPD Tannoys years back when I removed the dust caps. To the cries of Tannerds everywhere, I simply installed a quality attenuator pot to the tweeter. Problem fixed! Phase issues etc? Maybe - but I didn't care cos I could crank the music to levels to share with the neighbours and tonally it was correct and never cut my ears off. Same problem switching from audio to playing movies in same system. Movies were always too hot. Just crank the attenuator off a fraction - happy days. Playing music you love, how you like it is more important than any swish gear. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Tasebass 2,685 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 37 minutes ago, Red MacKay said: who cares a toss what they think. So endith the lesson for today.... Tase. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts