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58 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

I noticed on my David Hafler 101/200 that even just switching the tone controls into the signal path totally collapsed the 'image' and I ended up not using them. 

 

I noticed that when switching in DSP for room EQ.

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Toole says that good tone controls are blame-free and, as explained below, essential:

“For optimum stereo listening if your music tastes are as eclectic as mine, one really needs adjustable (room) acoustics and, possibly, variable-directivity loudspeakers, but we know that won’t happen. We also need old-fashioned bass and treble tone controls to compensate for the unfortunate spectral balances in some recordings created by poor judgment (perhaps) and poor monitor loudspeakers and/or “room EQ” (probably) in control rooms and home studios.  Figure 2.4 in my book shows the enormous variations in bass response in numerous recording control rooms employing essentially the same loudspeakers. Recordings coming from these facilities cannot have the same spectral balance. So, as much as we might like to think that getting the playback system optimized may guarantee satisfaction, it is simply not possible. .... Consequently, recordings are variable and it is left to the ingenuity of consumers to make adjustments, or to their tolerance to put up with the variations.”  Ref: What Do Listeners Prefer for Small Room Acoustics?, Dr F Toole, 2016

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1 hour ago, Grant Slack said:

Toole says that good tone controls are blame-free and, as explained below, essential:

“For optimum stereo listening if your music tastes are as eclectic as mine, one really needs adjustable (room) acoustics and, possibly, variable-directivity loudspeakers, but we know that won’t happen. We also need old-fashioned bass and treble tone controls to compensate for the unfortunate spectral balances in some recordings created by poor judgment (perhaps) and poor monitor loudspeakers and/or “room EQ” (probably) in control rooms and home studios.  Figure 2.4 in my book shows the enormous variations in bass response in numerous recording control rooms employing essentially the same loudspeakers. Recordings coming from these facilities cannot have the same spectral balance. So, as much as we might like to think that getting the playback system optimized may guarantee satisfaction, it is simply not possible. .... Consequently, recordings are variable and it is left to the ingenuity of consumers to make adjustments, or to their tolerance to put up with the variations.”  Ref: What Do Listeners Prefer for Small Room Acoustics?, Dr F Toole, 2016

 

 

Eventually the tonecontrolophobia stricken brethren will be dragged (kicking and screaming perhaps)  back into the fold.   ?

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12 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Tone control pics... good idea


note accuphase doesn’t just have tone controls.  It also has the ultimate evil that we have not discussed yet.  The dreaded “loudness” option - or compensation in Accuphase speak.  I have engaged both the tone and comp here for the photo to enrage the the audio puritans.

 

527CF124-4573-41B4-B993-D28A8C43E033.thumb.jpeg.1ea0813179ce148510402419b7767285.jpeg
 

D7A34BA6-767B-45F7-9B51-AA30A941845C.thumb.jpeg.fadd84a9f24fc69d8f7f490f7f34b1ec.jpeg

 

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18 minutes ago, metal beat said:

nothing wrong with tone controls  - either use them when you want to or have them out of the circuit.

 

vJyf7SS.jpg

 

 

That’s interesting:  normally you turn clockwise to increase and anti-clockwise to reduce.  First time I have seen it reversed.  Are you allowed to do this?  Surly this is wrong and should be stamped out ?

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5 minutes ago, Steam said:

t also has the ultimate evil that we have not discussed yet.  The dreaded “loudness” option - or compensation in Accuphase speak.

 

Well let's mention it then.  The basic circuit was just the same as a tone control - but working from a tap on the volume control so that the level of boost changes with volume.      Far from an ultimate evil, it is a very good idea.  The purist amplifiers do nothing to compensate for this very real "feature" of the human listening system.   

 

I suspect they just turn it up louder instead.  However, there is real pleasure to be had on a quiet morning or evening, listening to some quiet music that is balanced to sound correctly.

5 minutes ago, Steam said:

That’s interesting:  normally you turn clockwise to increase and anti-clockwise to reduce.  First time I have seen it reversed.  Are you allowed to do this?  Surly this is wrong and should be stamped out ?

 

But they appear to work just they way you want them too.  I presume the knob is linked to the internal dial and they turn together.

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7 minutes ago, Steam said:

That’s interesting:  normally you turn clockwise to increase and anti-clockwise to reduce.  First time I have seen it reversed.  Are you allowed to do this?  Surly this is wrong and should be stamped out ?

 

that is correct - nothing different here :)

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When you have heard, and have a system with audio purity,  you tend to do everything possible not to add distortion via tone controls to it.

 

I think what we are seeing in this thread, are many who are yet to reach that point, and not knowing enough about how to get there.

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1 hour ago, stereo coffee said:

When you have heard, and have a system with audio purity,  you tend to do everything possible not to add distortion via tone controls to it.

 

I think what we are seeing in this thread, are many who are yet to reach that point, and not knowing enough about how to get there.

 

Audio sonic purity...

 

Well I have been into this audio wankery now for over 30 years chasing perfection and you know - I'm over it!

At times I have had lived with amps and other components in my music room that retail for over $100K each.  Audiophile recordings sounded pretty spectacular.   Yeah - so what....

 

More important is playing the music that I love, with the tonal qualities that I love, with gusto or be it a pensive air, at the volumes I feel like at the time, either rocking the neighbours or just way way down low.

 

Just like the OP in this thread, the SQ of a lot of the recordings of my favourite music is s***, absolute rubbish.

But I loved the music in my car and on my boom box when I was growing up - and they all cost peanuts.  I've spent way more $$$$ than I care to admit over the years and have finally realised that I have been going backwards with my musical enjoyment.

 

Another option for tone controls, is a "tone shift/tilt".  I think it was Luxman that did it many years back and from memory our very own Earle Weston had it on his earlier preamps.  That might be a better compromise and a great option to build into a new pre.

 

For me now - the music is far more important that the gear.  I might be developing into an old fart!

Edited by Red MacKay
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2 minutes ago, Red MacKay said:

 

Audio sonic purity...

 

Well I have been into this audio wankery now for over 30 years chasing perfection and you know - I'm over it!

At times I have had lived with amps and other components in my music room that retail for over $100K each.  Audiophile recordings sounded pretty spectacular.   Yeah - so what....

 

More important is playing the music that I love, with the tonal qualities that I love, with gusto or be it a pensive air, at the volumes I feel like at the time, either rocking the neighbours or just way way down low.

 

Just like the OP in this thread, the SQ of a lot of the recordings of my favourite music is s***, absolute rubbish.

But I loved the music in my car and on my boom box when I was growing up - and they all cost peanuts.  I've spent way more $$$$ than I care to admit over the years and have finally realised that I have been going backwards with my musical enjoyment.

 

Another option for tone controls, is a "tone shift/tilt".  I think it was Luxman that did it many years back and from memory our very own Earle Weston had it on his earlier preamps.  That might be a better compromise and a great compromise to be able to build into a new pre.

 

For me now - the music is far more important that the gear.  I might be developing into an old fart!

Glad you are enjoying , what you have found to be best for you. Perfection though is not too hard to achieve,  and requires much less expenditure. with the result of SQ in most recordings being the opposite also strangely beginning with s  , not needing asterisk at all - in this case spectacular

 

It begins with

1. Coming to terms with your source component,  having the best possible audio and not adding or subtracting from that toward the power amp, (  the one exception being where companding is used  )  By all means find what is the best source component.  A deeper knowledge will be of great help  and your discoveries can be much shorter locating the better components where certain better circuit types are used.  a study of cables should find the properties of coax being both low in cost and beneficial vs other cables.  

 

2. Secondly you need to match the source RMS output level of the source component,  to be similar to the RMS sensitivity of your power amp as many $$$ can be wasted    where needless mismatches occur. A good figure to head to is power amps having 500mv RMS sensitivity  for full output.  As example the famous manufacturer Quad, getting this right for now 54 years

 

3. Always use a passive attenuator  as a study of electronics finds only resistance has properties of best maintaining audio signal purity ,

    using where possible contact-less attenuation.    https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/359931-100-wrong-purpose.html

   Contact less methods presently include magnetic, light dependent resistors and field effect transistors  

 

4. Learn some DIY skills and ask questions about every aspect of audio reproduction. Find a friendly forum like this one,  and share some of the skills you acquire along the way.

 

5 Listen to as many loudspeaker types you can , as you may find certain dispersion characteristics better than others.

 

6. Use a power amp with minimal or very low harmonic distortion having correct sensitivity and power output sufficient for your needs.

 

You may note I have not advocated integrated amps , which is not to say they cannot improve, presently they harbor too many compromises mainly between the input sockets and power amp input,  some containing this thread's devices.  You can see all the unnecessary circuitry by viewing schematic diagrams at  Hifi engine  https://www.hifiengine.com/

 

Following that,  and this is the fun part , explore as much music as you can. 

 

 

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Nothing wrong with the Judicious use of tone controls.....even with the most acclaimed front end and/or speakers...

I like it so much  I run 2 integrates as my phono pre's power supply has 3 outputs so i make use of them...

 

IMG_2751.thumb.jpg.2b38ccb70fcf4b61def1d193ddc7292b.jpg  

 

All good fun...as it should be..

 

Tase

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6 hours ago, Tasebass said:

Nothing wrong with the Judicious use of tone controls.....even with the most acclaimed front end and/or speakers...

 

 

Gosh, just look at all the knobs and buttons on those vintage Rotels! ?x

 

After foolishly sticking with Musical Fidelity class-A for decades I made a huge upgrade to a semi-vintage Rotel amp last year.

 

It is rather barren in the knob department, though, and that’s just the way I like it :D

 

 

 

IMG_0489.thumb.jpeg.ab56c6e63405e401f21c2d5a93e6d903.jpeg

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6 hours ago, Steffen said:

 

Gosh, just look at all the knobs and buttons on those vintage Rotels! ?x

 

 

Rotel RC-5000 Stereo Control Amplifier Manual | HiFi Engine

The Daddy of the Range from back then....Knob's Button's Sliders...a fiddlers delight.......love to lay my hands on one....

 

( Did someone say graphic equalizer?   :tongue: )

 

Tase

 

 

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Classic rock recordings (Stones, Velvet, Stooges, Hendrix, etc.) or "modern" alternative rock recordings (R.E.M., Replacements, Husker Du, Jesus and Mary Chain, etc.) was very poor and anti hi-fi/hi-end. If you want listen to it and enjoy it, you need an integrated amp or a preamp with tone control! When you listen that kind of music with clear and ultra-detailed units, without tone control, is impossible to turn up the volume! Your ears and your brain hurt?. I listen the same album matching my Luxman L550 with the Krell Kav 300i of a friend of mine. The Krell (no tone control integrated amp) get an endless power, as a pro amp, but without warm/musical sound, so i listen always at low volume. With the Luxman the power is less, however enough to bring down the house, but the sound is musical, warm, magic...... heavenly! Tone control forever (imho).

Best

Pietro from Italy

 

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1 hour ago, Pietro73 said:

Classic rock recordings (Stones, Velvet, Stooges, Hendrix, etc.) or "modern" alternative rock recordings (R.E.M., Replacements, Husker Du, Jesus and Mary Chain, etc.) was very poor and anti hi-fi/hi-end. If you want listen to it and enjoy it, you need an integrated amp or a preamp with tone control! When you listen that kind of music with clear and ultra-detailed units, without tone control, is impossible to turn up the volume! Your ears and your brain hurt?. I listen the same album matching my Luxman L550 with the Krell Kav 300i of a friend of mine. The Krell (no tone control integrated amp) get an endless power, as a pro amp, but without warm/musical sound, so i listen always at low volume. With the Luxman the power is less, however enough to bring down the house, but the sound is musical, warm, magic...... heavenly! Tone control forever (imho).

Best

Pietro from Italy

 

Hi Pietro

Some of us find the exact opposite, that such recordings reproduce so well, it is a total pleasure to listen to how they were actually recorded,  without adding distortion to the sound with tone controls.   But glad you are enjoying your music,  as you wish to.

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

But glad you are enjoying your music,  as you wish to.

I'm glad you are enjoing your listening way to. However, tone control, when done fine as on the top electronics by Luxman, Macintosh, Accuphase, not adds distortion but only color (more/less bass, more/less treble, etc.), just like cables or acoustic treatment do. Anyway the real pure sound is a "chimera", an impossible dream. A different position of the listener, furnitures, more or less carpets, and, mostly, our convinctions and "cognitive distortion" (for example, a lot of money we have spent for our "sonic toys"), create what for us is a perfect sound and for other a wrong sound. Important thing is: enjoying the music we love!?

 

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3 hours ago, Pietro73 said:

I'm glad you are enjoing your listening way to. However, tone control, when done fine as on the top electronics by Luxman, Macintosh, Accuphase, not adds distortion but only color (more/less bass, more/less treble, etc.), just like cables or acoustic treatment do. Anyway the real pure sound is a "chimera", an impossible dream. A different position of the listener, furnitures, more or less carpets, and, mostly, our convinctions and "cognitive distortion" (for example, a lot of money we have spent for our "sonic toys"), create what for us is a perfect sound and for other a wrong sound. Important thing is: enjoying the music we love!?

 

Hi Pietro

We have quite different viewpoints about how to get there , but at the same time share a common goal which is music.

 

Your comments invite reply, as they are invitational to a further heightening of position where mediocrity is accepted, and compromise is commonplace.  Each position is very appealing to large scale manufacturers as they can seemingly do less, and in the process distance themselves progressively further and further from actual human perception of hearing. 

 

We, representing broadly who are audiophiles, those interested in audio reproduction and equipment pertaining,  should be doing everything so compromise & mediocity is never entertained, when we choose one product vs another. 

 

Of those manufactucturers you mention,  Accuphase appear to have made some design effort with early designs, seen in the extended bandwidth some of their products offer to 400khz. If we pause for a moment, why do not all of their products offer extended bandwidth,  and why only build one or two products with this feature?  

 

We can find,  if we look,  that extended bandwidth is necessary in equipment as researched here by James Boyk  http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

 

and commented separately by David Blackmer   http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0114/the_world_beyond_20khz.htm

 

What you will likely find if it is of interest rather  is the introduction of digital in 1983, suggested to some,  thinking not what was truly possible, but more so,  financial return,   that the restriction of the Nyquist sampling theorem and mandate by Sony and Philips to have the CD format the size it ended up being, was enough to arrange the format to be restricted in bandwidth.    We can see Accuphase wrongly following this same thinking, by having subsequent products with 20-20khz bandwidth.

 

 

 

What is possible, when we begin designing without compromise is truly incredible. 

 

As I have previously commented applies

On 23/01/2021 at 4:40 PM, stereo coffee said:

When you have heard, and have a system with audio purity,  you tend to do everything possible not to add distortion via tone controls to it.

 

I think what we are seeing in this thread, are many who are yet to reach that point, and not knowing enough about how to get there.

 

Screenshot from 2021-01-28 11-55-48.png

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1 hour ago, stereo coffee said:

We can find,  if we look,  that extended bandwidth is necessary in equipment as researched here by James Boyk  http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

Author's Notes, May 4, 2000 
At the request of people involved in standards-setting for audio, who wanted this information made available as soon as possible, I published this original paper here, rather than in a professional journal.

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